Justis Case Knockoff

[John Barton]

SOLUTION: We (all AZBers) should all actively see to it that all 40 million American poolplayers quickly buy a 'REAL' Jack Justis case and then all the counterfeit cases would sit unsold and gathering dust in the dealers showrooms....... VIOLA !

Doug W.
( Jack, how quickly can you turn out the the first million ? How about the OTHER 39 million ? )


*Please don't go alphabetically.......... or according to the customer's WEIGHT. OK ?

You know what? THAT would actually be a really good solution. If more consumers would take the time to find out the differences and educate themselves enough to be a good judge of quality and value then there would be a lot less copies in the world.

I can't tell you the amount of times I had someone come into the booth and tell me they could get the same case for half the price. Then they were shocked when I pulled one of those copy cases out of the back and showed them exactly what they were and were NOT getting for their $200.

Then I told them to go and buy it. I said your Instroke will cost you $600 because when the $200 copy falls apart in less than a year, you will be back to buy quality.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

I think we can support him by boycotting companies that would stoop to this practice. I would do the same for you.

Chris

You're probably right Chris. Legally there isn't much Jack can do without huge legal fees. Course John knows that already I'm sure!!!

Can't find the proper Icon for how I feel right now so let it suffice to say this really pi$$e$ me off.

 

[cuesblues]

don't worry

You're probably right Chris. Legally there isn't much Jack can do without huge legal fees. Course John knows that already I'm sure!!!

Can't find the proper Icon for how I feel right now so let it suffice to say this really pi$$e$ me off.

Tells

That was my first emotion also, but when I noticed that the knockoffs weren't less expensive than I paid for a real / nicer Justis case, 3 x 5 instead of 3 x 6 or 4 x 8, I realized what a great deal I got on mine. If someone wants to pay that kind of bread for a knockoff, than they are not very good shoppers. One of the great things about this forum is that you get a better education in a hurry. I've learned a lot of stuff here.

Ted

 

[our_auctionguy]

The only protection is trademarking

As those who like me tried to wrestle with Predator on fixed pricing and distribution have found out, Trademarks are powerful tools for protecting one's distribution, pricing, etc in this country. Maybe the artisan makers need to get together and figure out a workable solution they can all work within for trademarking their designs and plastering their names and trademarks conspicuously on their products. To fight of the swarm, you must band together and not fight amongst yourselves. Then, if an importer decides to try and counterfeit their cases with their obvious trademark logos or names, the US Government will be obliged to step in and blacken their eyes. This could also result in huge monetary damages being awarded to the offended. Talk to the people at Predator and see what they think about Trademarks.

PS. The trade imbalance is not only in goods,but jobs being shipped overseas while at the same time legal and illegal workers being imported by the hundreds of thousands here. Nothing we didn't allow as we have become complacent, fat, and happy to the bell of liberalism, fast food, and cheap Wal-Mart prices. When will people say enough is enough?

 

[John Barton]

John, You may not be aware of it but your whole attitude has changed since you began working in China for/with Sterling.

Speaking of "sales". I may not have spent zillions of $$$ with Sterling Gaming over the past years but you can certainly count on future purchases being zero. You can credit that directly to the subject of this thread.

This just isn't right John! IMO of course!

Of course it isn't right. My attitude has not changed in the least. I don't like the copies. IF I ever use any elements of someone else's design then I damn sure will make it better and distinctively mine.

Jack can ***** all he wants to but he is far less likely to see a drop in his annual sales than I did. Since Instroke copies and Bunjee copies flooded the market I have lost millions of dollars. Not a couple thousand. I bet Jack's production won't change a bit and he will still make and sell as many cases per year as he wants to.

I don't condone blatant copying and I don't condone hypocrisy. So if you want to complain about poor Jack then complain about the other good folks in this business who are getting RIPPED off every day. I am sorry but if you all can't see fit to condemn ALL sorts of design theft then don't go nuts over this one.

You may not spend any money with Sterling but Sterling won't stop supporting the sport of pool. Scott Taylor invented the Laser Cue and he is being RIPPED OFF right now by Harvard Sports. Of course AZ could care less about that because the laser cue is a gimmick anyway right?

Well the laser cue that Scott invented, the CueSight branded one, is directly responsible for the fact that 18 American families get a paycheck every week, it paid for a half dozen pro players in various ways for several years, it paid for and continues to pay for the sponsorship of many leagues, tournaments, charity events and tour sponsorships in the billiard world. Do you care that Sterling Gaming is losing money to the sales of infringing copies of Scott's invention? Probably not. When was the last time Harvard Sport sponsored anything in the billiard industry?

I spent years fighting the copies, with marketing, personal letters, crusades, and stupidly with lawyers. It's nonsense. Because EVEN IF you own the design patents and the trademarks it is STILL on you to defend your rights and you must PAY UP FRONT to do that with very little chance of ever recovering the tiniest fraction of what you lost. And you know what consumers don't care, retailers don't care. They don't. It's disheartening. At least Jack doesn't have to hear from a plethora of dealers that so and so importer is trying to sell them x-case for half the price EVEN though they are also distributors of the Original Product. That takes balls to sell the original product AND then go and copy it and sell it alongside the original.

You are doing yourself a disservice if you stop doing business with Sterling. You will be hard pressed to find a more 'dedicated to their customers' bunch of folks. But if you want to punish them because you disagree with me then go ahead. Unlike most of you I have the experience that backs up my point of view and have lost the money to be able to express that opinion freely.

 

[John Barton]

SO, it is Barton that is importing them

Are you high? I never said anything of the sort. I certainly don't need to copy Jack's stuff, never have and never will. IF you see anything that I do that has any element of Jack's flavor then you can bet you ass that I took the ingredients and made a better recipe.

 

[John Barton]

Well John I think you are the messenger boy delivering the bad news to both Jack and Dan. China is copying everything that sells including Dan?s, and Jack?s cue cases.

I am not an attorney, and have never played on on TV, but I believe you John know the laws about these subjects. When you said.

?Actually it's only a counterfeit if it is sold as a Justis. In this sense it's only a copy. Or "tribute" depending on how you look at it.?

As for my post above after looking at the Copy Justis above, and a Real Justis on Jack?s web-site.

I should have said well Jack I believe the word is COUNTERFEIT. But the copy cat appears to have put the Zipper, an Handle on the opposite side of your cases, as this copy cat appears to have the Snap closure on the Opposite Side from the Carry Handle /Strap.

Well I happen to be in a position now to see lot more of what's coming than I was when I didn't live here. It's brutal sometimes how bad the copying is. In the billiard industry it USED to be that the main copiers were importers who sent originals to China to be copied. Now it's savvy Chinese and Taiwanese who realize that they can supply the Asian markets with copies of high end billiard equipment and of course some of that is bound to make it's way westward to the USA.

There is no law that prevents someone from copying Jack's designs.
Copyright - forget about it, does not apply.
Design Patent - Jack does not have one and they are weak anyway. Not to mention the costs involved in defending one.
Patent - no chance to get one much less defend it.

I hope like hell that this galvanizes you consumers and dealers to take a stand and let the importers know how you feel. If an importer comes up with a BETTER product then more power to them and good for them. But IF they just trade on someone else's ideas then boycott them. I will be surprised though if anyone actually does anything worthwhile.

Tell Mark Griffin and the folks at Diamond that you won't support their events if they allow the vendors to bring in copies. Give the show organizers a good way to tell who owns the intellectual property and a good platform to refuse the business of the copiers.

Allen and Dawn Hopkins rightly told me that they can't take sides. It's not fair for them to become the ones who police the industry for who was first to market. Of course it's all relative. I bet anything that I would get shut down real quick if I showed with a copy of a Diamond table since Diamond is a big part of the Super Show. And the BCA is the worst. They OUGHT to be the ones who protect their members but they don't. I asked them to shut down others from infringing on my trademarks. No chance.

So it's up to you consumers. Let this affront to Jack be your rallying card and DO SOMETHING.

 

[John Barton]

As those who like me tried to wrestle with Predator on fixed pricing and distribution have found out, Trademarks are powerful tools for protecting one's distribution, pricing, etc in this country. Maybe the artisan makers need to get together and figure out a workable solution they can all work within for trademarking their designs and plastering their names and trademarks conspicuously on their products. To fight of the swarm, you must band together and not fight amongst yourselves. Then, if an importer decides to try and counterfeit their cases with their obvious trademark logos or names, the US Government will be obliged to step in and blacken their eyes. This could also result in huge monetary damages being awarded to the offended. Talk to the people at Predator and see what they think about Trademarks.

PS. The trade imbalance is not only in goods,but jobs being shipped overseas while at the same time legal and illegal workers being imported by the hundreds of thousands here. Nothing we didn't allow as we have become complacent, fat, and happy to the bell of liberalism, fast food, and cheap Wal-Mart prices. When will people say enough is enough?

Trademarking only protects if someone is using that mark or a confusingly similar one.

If I make a ten splice shaft and call mine Raptor then Predator has ZERO protection due to their trademarks.

Jack has ZERO protection legally if the cases are branded with anything but "Justis" on it.

Reality is a cruel master. I used to believe in trademarks and patents and copyrights. Still do but with a much less Pollyanna perspective. I now know what I need to do BEFORE I launch a product to protect it and what I need to do to fight infringers before they become a bigger problem than I can afford to solve.

 

[TATE]

There is no law that prevents someone from copying Jack's designs.
Copyright - forget about it, does not apply.

No, you are wrong. This is exactly what a copyright protects, in this case a visual art design, and the right to copy it. Jack may have a copyright on the design and you are opening yourselves up to legal issues.

Hey, it's only money.

Chris

 

[Jack Justis]

I hope like hell that this galvanizes you consumers and dealers to take a stand and let the importers know how you feel. If an importer comes up with a BETTER product then more power to them and good for them. But IF they just trade on someone else's ideas then boycott them. I will be surprised though if anyone actually does anything worthwhile.

Tell Mark Griffin and the folks at Diamond that you won't support their events if they allow the vendors to bring in copies. Give the show organizers a good way to tell who owns the intellectual property and a good platform to refuse the business of the copiers.

Allen and Dawn Hopkins rightly told me that they can't take sides. It's not fair for them to become the ones who police the industry for who was first to market. Of course it's all relative. I bet anything that I would get shut down real quick if I showed with a copy of a Diamond table since Diamond is a big part of the Super Show. And the BCA is the worst. They OUGHT to be the ones who protect their members but they don't. I asked them to shut down others from infringing on my trademarks. No chance.

So it's up to you consumers. Let this affront to Jack be your rallying card and DO SOMETHING.

It's obvious that John has not read the post about the Design Thief Exposed... John, you are a piece of cake.

---Quote (Originally by John Barton)---
---Quote (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)---
JOHN, I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TELL ME WHERE I CAN ORDER A CASE LIKE THE JUSTIS COPY YOU POSTED. MY GIRL WANTS A JUSTIS BUT SHE ABUSES EVERYTHING.
THANKS

(XXXXXX)
---End Quote---
Sure. You will be able to buy them from Sterling Gaming in about two months. I have decided to start importing them. Call 877-283-7444 to set up an account and we will call you as soon as they show up.

John
---End Quote---

 

[shark3149]

Hello Jack.I don't think there is much to worry about as you make the best case going.I for one would never buy one of these knock off cases.

 

[DeepBanks]

Every-ting made in Guang Don now . . .

Maybe he should use those little flags that say Made in America on them. Oh, but those are probably made in China now also.
Dan

Wish we could sell them some of our favorite products . . . we don't have to tell 'em what they're for . . .

 

[John Barton]

No, you are wrong. This is exactly what a copyright protects, in this case a visual art design, and the right to copy it. Jack may have a copyright on the design and you are opening yourselves up to legal issues.

Hey, it's only money.

Chris

How am I opening myself up to anything. Neither I nor Sterling is copying Jack's designs in any way.

You can bet though that IF Jack tried to go to court using copyright that the defendant would simply pull up some pictures of Jay Flowers cases with the same design elements and Jack's case would fall apart.

You can bet I explored copyright extensively to try and stem the flow of Instroke copies.

I wasn't even able to find a lawyer who would take my money as I had no case.

No chance.

 

[our_auctionguy]

Wish we could sell them some of our favorite products . . . we don't have to tell 'em what they're for . . .

LOL!!! The picture is all wrong!!!!. His lips would seal up shut tighter than a well diggers arse if that were real Preparation H...... Foiled again..... ANOTHER IMPORT COPY !!!!

 

[John Barton]

It's obvious that John has not read the post about the Design Thief Exposed... John, you are a piece of cake.

---Quote (Originally by John Barton)---
---Quote (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)---
JOHN, I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TELL ME WHERE I CAN ORDER A CASE LIKE THE JUSTIS COPY YOU POSTED. MY GIRL WANTS A JUSTIS BUT SHE ABUSES EVERYTHING.
THANKS

(XXXXXX)
---End Quote---
Sure. You will be able to buy them from Sterling Gaming in about two months. I have decided to start importing them. Call 877-283-7444 to set up an account and we will call you as soon as they show up.

John
---End Quote---

Yeah, and has anyone bought one? No because I never imported them. For the record Jack the ONLY reason I considered it was because YOU and others were asses about the FACT that I showed YOU that the cases exist.

I did not make them they have been on the market for a while AND also available in the USA through ONE of your dealers.

When was that PRIVATE message dated? Plenty MORE THAN FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS ago.

You are the piece of cake Jack. If I wanted to copy you then I would have blown you out of the water years ago. My partners in Instroke wanted to copy your cases from the beginning and I fought against it. And during my time there we NEVER copied your case even though your build is MUCH easier to make and the tooling is incredibly simple. Try TALKING TO ME before you go off half cocked.

You have so little clue about how the real world works in the pool business. You obviously have completely forgotten about the FACT that I told you about Justis copies in 2001 after my trip to Taiwan.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think people dont realize but everyone of us on here owns something that has been copied that is cheaper,if you shop at walmart then you know that,its happening everywhere to everything,keep supporting China because America wont be #1 for long,perhaps we are already #2.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I think people dont realize but everyone of us on here owns something that has been copied that is cheaper,if you shop at walmart then you know that,its happening everywhere to everything,keep supporting China because America wont be #1 for long,perhaps we are already #2.

That is true with generic stuff.
But, I'm not buying Chinese knockoffs of custom guns, knives, cues, cases or pens.

 

[Jack Justis]

You have so little clue about how the real world works in the pool business.

Yeah, your probably right but I have learned a lot from John Barton that I would not want as a part of my business plan.

 

[lenoxmjs]

It is sad but I don't think that it will hurt Jack in the end. People who own a Justis or a Whitten wouldn't even consider one of these "knockoffs". I also wouldn't own a fake Rolex or a pair of fake Oakleys. In the end the fake stuff just makes these people wannabees.

The fraud is even worse when you get into womans items like purses, perfume ect. These items aren't even changed a little when they are knocked off. You can bet that a girl who knows the good stuff can spot a fake Coach or Prada bag from across the room.

 

[Fast Lenny]

That is true with generic stuff.
But, I'm not buying Chinese knockoffs of custom guns, knives, cues, cases or pens.

I love custom things but some people cant afford it,i mean how many league players can afford a $500 case,they dont spend that on there whole set up,alot of them spend a $100 for there cue and case and are happy with that.I have bought knockoffs before and am not ashamed to say it,i mean alot of cuemakers have copied SW across the board but i would still buy one as i like the style but dont have the money to pay for one.Will it hit as good?,probably not.Will the import case last as long or be as detailed?,probably not.Will people buy it?,most definately.There are a few members lurking right now and know they sell knockoffs,its just capitalism at its finest.