Keith Would have Crushed Them

[LittleMonster]

I am sickened by this thread and by some of the comments from the peanut gallery about Keith McCready. Yes, since I care about the man with my heart, it hurts me deeply to read the ridicule.

Corvette goes off and starts a poll thread about who's the best player, Chris Bartrum or Keith McCready, when Keith is over 50 years old today. The poll thread was initiated only as a vehicle to demean Keith's good name.

I hope y'all have yourselves a nice day. I've wasted several hours defending a man I care deeply about when I could have been making money. My mistake.

As someone who is close to Keith (your own words), I can understand how these threads have taken an ugly turn that is upsetting to you. It all began with a simple question about who was the best. And to be honest, the second post in this thread should have been the final answer anyone needed. Its a question that can never be answered so we will never know.

Pool is a funny game. There is no BEST. On any given day, anyone can beat anyone else. There are those that display a greater degree of consistency. Sure. But you would be hard pressed to declare a 'BEST'. Especially when waying different players from different eras.


That being said, this thread started to take a turn for the worse on page two. You began your first post in this thread echoing that sentiment... that its an impossible question to answer. There are too many variables in play. But you then followed it up with stories of the great things Keith has done; stories about how he beat the best in the game with ease; how even Efren himself was told to avoid Keith. While your intentions were honorable, all you ended up doing was setting the stage for anyone and everyone with a different opinion or personal account of some stories to try and negate your claims or share their opinions.

Sure enough, it happened a few pages later. When it did, you defended your 'dog' in the fight which is honorable. But surely you had to know that by doing such, you were only going to add fuel to a flame. You created a debate by picking your horse and defending him tooth and nail. Then when others disagreed or even had conflicting accounts of past events, the insults began to fly... with you calling one member a 'biyotch' then taking some shots at Chris for simply giving his opinion.

The sad part in all of this is, some great players (Keith, Chris Bartrum, even Danny Basavich) get their names dragged through the mud while everyone tries to defend their points of view and prove everyone else wrong.

With all due respect JAM, if you hate seeing threads go awry like this, perhaps you should steer clear of them. And I say this only because by trying to defend your friend, you wind up opening the flood gates for comments that will only get you heated, thus leading to a lot of sensless mud-slinging. Again, no disrespect intended. Just calling it like I see it.

Aiden

 

[jay helfert]

They made an offer. He lived in Baker La. right above Baton Rouge and his mother had a bad heart. His parents were divorced and his mother would have been left alone had he went. Hundred mile an hour fast ball or not they were sending him to a farm team first for nice bucks but not huge. Early seventies and I think the offer was less than a hundred K, definitely not much more. He opted not to go. I never saw him pitch so I have no idea what his skills or durability were. I think he went straight from high school to local amateur leagues with no college ball.

Hu

Reminds me of my high school buddy Jerry Chadwell. He had some nasty stuff and was a high school phenom. He had scouts watching him at every game. Threw something like six no-hitters his senior year. But he'd rather hang out in the pool room than go to ball practice. And he loved his beer too. Last time I saw him, he was down and out in Cincy (40 years ago). What a waste of talent.

He was a better pool player than me back then, but I improved and he fell by the wayside. I wonder what happened to him. He's over 60 now. Strange huh, because I'm still only 39.

 

[dafish1970]

As someone who is close to Keith (your own words), I can understand how these threads have taken an ugly turn that is upsetting to you. It all began with a simple question about who was the best. And to be honest, the second post in this thread should have been the final answer anyone needed. Its a question that can never be answered so we will never know.

Pool is a funny game. There is no BEST. On any given day, anyone can beat anyone else. There are those that display a greater degree of consistency. Sure. But you would be hard pressed to declare a 'BEST'. Especially when waying different players from different eras.


That being said, this thread started to take a turn for the worse on page two. You began your first post in this thread echoing that sentiment... that its an impossible question to answer. There are too many variables in play. But you then followed it up with stories of the great things Keith has done; stories about how he beat the best in the game with ease; how even Efren himself was told to avoid Keith. While your intentions were honorable, all you ended up doing was setting the stage for anyone and everyone with a different opinion or personal account of some stories to try and negate your claims or share their opinions.

Sure enough, it happened a few pages later. When it did, you defended your 'dog' in the fight which is honorable. But surely you had to know that by doing such, you were only going to add fuel to a flame. You created a debate by picking your horse and defending him tooth and nail. Then when others disagreed or even had conflicting accounts of past events, the insults began to fly... with you calling one member a 'biyotch' then taking some shots at Chris for simply giving his opinion.

The sad part in all of this is, some great players (Keith, Chris Bartrum, even Danny Basavich) get their names dragged through the mud while everyone tries to defend their points of view and prove everyone else wrong.

With all due respect JAM, if you hate seeing threads go awry like this, perhaps you should steer clear of them. And I say this only because by trying to defend your friend, you wind up opening the flood gates for comments that will only get you heated, thus leading to a lot of sensless mud-slinging. Again, no disrespect intended. Just calling it like I see it.

Aiden

sorry...i was the one who said keith got treated like a "biotch"in the bar box match at the DCC in 02' and "jam; went off on me and said i wasnt there...whatever....(see my last post few back) i ment no disrtespect to keith at all...ive seen him at many pool halls and tourny's all over the country for years and have side bet on him and won..i was just talking about the last match i seem him play...i guess i understand her wanteding to defend her freind...i know ive put my life on the line in 1990 and again on/off the last few years in the middle east as a miltary consulant....but by no means does it give her the right to call people liars either...put down the cue and pick up a weapon and defend the people of this country and the flag.....those are truley the BEST people in the country

 

[ShootingArts]

scouting a guy in high school

Reminds me of my high school buddy Jerry Chadwell. He had some nasty stuff and was a high school phenom. He had scouts watching him at every game. Threw something like six no-hitters his senior year. But he'd rather hang out in the pool room than go to ball practice. And he loved his beer too. Last time I saw him, he was down and out in Cincy (40 years ago). What a waste of talent.

He was a better pool player than me back then, but I improved and he fell by the wayside. I wonder what happened to him. He's over 60 now. Strange huh, because I'm still only 39.

One of the guys that was part of the group I ran with sometimes in high school was being scouted hot and heavy by the pro baseball teams then. He was a handsome little varmint too according to all the girls swooning all over him. Just to top things off his grandmother had passed away ten or fifteen years before leaving $800,000 plus interest in an account that became his when he turned twenty-one.

I don't know what became of him, don't even remember his name since we weren't really tight. I do remember thinking that if anyone had the world by the tail he did. I did whip up on him playing pool but of course I was the only guy in high school that was obsessed with playing pool. He was a year older than me in high school, now he is more than twenty years older than I am. Funny how fast some people age.

Hu

 

[smokeandapancak]

this thread is reminds me of a re run episode of Cheers........you know that one that you have seen a 100 times ......but yet you still watch it.....

 

[crawfish]

So, basically you are saying that Chris' opinion that Alex would beat Keith in both their primes on a 9 footer isn't valid?

Sure it's valid. It's a great opinion. Just like mine of being the best in the world. The difference is that some people might disagree about Chris' statement, whereas quite a few might disagree with Sir Craw. Hence, there is room for opinions without negativity.

 

[corvette1340]

Sure it's valid. It's a great opinion. Just like mine of being the best in the world. The difference is that some people might disagree about Chris' statement, whereas quite a few might disagree with Sir Craw. Hence, there is room for opinions without negativity.

Basically the way you were stating your sarcastic analogy was that there was nothing to back up Chris' opinion, which is obviously not the case as Alex has done a lot to deserve the praise he gets just like Keith.

 

[crawfish]

Basically the way you were stating your sarcastic analogy was that there was nothing to back up Chris' opinion, which is obviously not the case as Alex has done a lot to deserve the praise he gets just like Keith.

I just love Little Alex. I just don't think it's fair to fu#$ with a guy who hasn't played in years. You see, most on this board are too young to even remember Keith in prime. If you saw it, it was a show to pay for. And no, I don't think Alex would run over Keith playing two shot. I like Keith in that...in his prime. All this shit does is leave the younger guys a tainted view of a stone cold legend. Because they only go on what they hear or read. Chris' opinion about beating a guy that's not playing much is just that. An opinion. I just don't like to see the crap that comes up (and Keith's name is always brought up) whenever gambling is mentioned. The dude is an icon. Show a little respect. Saying someone made him his biotch is uncalled for, even if someone thinks it's funny. I prefer to remember the magic. Now, I must go...Ta ta and thanks.

Sir Craw.

 

[corvette1340]

I just love Little Alex. I just don't think it's fair to fu#$ with a guy who hasn't played in years. You see, most on this board are too young to even remember Keith in prime. If you saw it, it was a show to pay for. And no, I don't think Alex would run over Keith playing two shot. I like Keith in that...in his prime. All this shit does is leave the younger guys a tainted view of a stone cold legend. Because they only go on what they hear or read. Chris' opinion about beating a guy that's not playing much is just that. An opinion. I just don't like to see the crap that comes up (and Keith's name is always brought up) whenever gambling is mentioned. The dude is an icon. Show a little respect. Saying someone made him his biotch is uncalled for, even if someone thinks it's funny. I prefer to remember the magic. Now, I must go...Ta ta and thanks.

Sir Craw.

lol, so if someone has an opinion that differs from you or Keith then you should just not post on an open forum? LMAO, you sound just like someone else on here.

 

[Pii]

He was a better pool player than me back then, but I improved and he fell by the wayside. I wonder what happened to him. He's over 60 now. Strange huh, because I'm still only 39.

Everyone knows that pool keeps you young! The down side is it'll drive you nuts.
Jay I could have sworn you were no older than 31 but damn if you don't look crazier than a loon. :thumbup:

Looking forward to reading your book by I'm wonder just how many stories a 31 year has.

 

[crawfish]

lol, so if someone has an opinion that differs from you or Keith then you should just not post on an open forum? LMAO, you sound just like someone else on here.

That's not what I meant and you know it. There's no need to get all belligerent and shit, though. "Biotch" is demeaning, wouldn't you agree. I personally couldn't give two shits who wins. I make no money either way. But, booking a loser and referring to them as making them their "biotch" does cast a certain cloud. Say, you book a loser and someone on the side talks about how Player A tortured you and made you look like their biotch and was laughing at you over it, this wouldn't get to you a little. If not, then please respect my opinion. I am the best in the world and noone can beat me.

 

[corvette1340]

That's not what I meant and you know it. There's no need to get all belligerent and shit, though. "Biotch" is demeaning, wouldn't you agree. I personally couldn't give two shits who wins. I make no money either way. But, booking a loser and referring to them as making them their "biotch" does cast a certain cloud. Say, you book a loser and someone on the side talks about how Player A tortured you and made you look like their biotch and was laughing at you over it, this wouldn't get to you a little. If not, then please respect my opinion. I am the best in the world and noone can beat me.

Im not talking about the "biotch" comment. I'm talking about the fact that it is ok for people to have differing opinions on who would win, who was the greatest, etc... without people getting upset. The poll I made was in response to the fact that Jam said Keith would beat Bartram and Bartram said "bet". I wanted to find out what others thought if they matched up RIGHT NOW.

Then I have every tom, dick, and harry saying that I made the poll for some other alterior motive, lmao. I didn't even voice an opinion in the whole Keith vs. Bartram, Keith vs. Alex scenario and I'm getting all the ridicule. Doesn't make sense.

 

[crawfish]

Im not talking about the "biotch" comment. I'm talking about the fact that it is ok for people to have differing opinions on who would win, who was the greatest, etc... without people getting upset. The poll I made was in response to the fact that Jam said Keith would beat Bartram and Bartram said "bet". I wanted to find out what others thought if they matched up RIGHT NOW.

Then I have every tom, dick, and harry saying that I made the poll for some other alterior motive, lmao. I didn't even voice an opinion in the whole Keith vs. Bartram, Keith vs. Alex scenario and I'm getting all the ridicule. Doesn't make sense.

Although I know Keith (not like great friends, but we'll definitely recognize eachother and tell stories), and like his personna in a poolroom, I agree that Chris would beat him now. I'd even say that to Keith. I think Keith would even say that. I just prefer to keep it civil and business. When Keith was in his prime, the seven would be fair. Maybe more. He could outrun shit I never thought he could. These things bring out nothing but harsh crap that does NO positive in the pool world. There might only be a handful of people that doesn't like Chris RIGHT NOW. It's not gonna happen, so it's all hypothetical anyway. So, being only in a dream world, I am still the best in the world. Just an opinion.

 

[corvette1340]

Although I know Keith (not like great friends, but we'll definitely recognize eachother and tell stories), and like his personna in a poolroom, I agree that Chris would beat him now. I'd even say that to Keith. I think Keith would even say that. I just prefer to keep it civil and business. When Keith was in his prime, the seven would be fair. Maybe more. He could outrun shit I never thought he could. These things bring out nothing but harsh crap that does NO positive in the pool world. There might only be a handful of people that doesn't like Chris RIGHT NOW. It's not gonna happen, so it's all hypothetical anyway. So, being only in a dream world, I am still the best in the world. Just an opinion.

and you are entitled to your opinion. You can even make a poll about it. It's an open forum.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

You got a little miles under you today, Chris Bartrum, but you couldn't even come close to Keith's speed on your best day. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

WOW Jam, thats brutal. I dunno if I can agree with ya, this kid can play. Yes, I am officially old enough to say I saw Keith in his dead punch yrs. Bottom line is...and Im not a Bartrum asskisser by no stretch but he has a seriouslu LARGE top gear, which I also witnessed.

I always laugh when I read who could beat who. My dad can beat up yours, neener neener. So many names never mentioned and the ones mentioned always seem to start a fire...imagine that. My vote for unbeatable bar table player...big or small ball goes to Matlock, honorable mention goe to Peru Paul {RIP} and no, Im not from the midwest.

Voodoo~~~loves the threads that bring out the evil in people, LOL
l

 

[Thecoats]

I don't think anyone here is digging at you, you've got an opinion and I've got an opinion that's different than yours. So what? Everyone here has an opinion and they differ from left to right and top to bottom. That's why it's called a "forum"...

People always want to say the older players had to play on slow cloth, they played 2 shot push out, blah, blah, blah.... The young players play on Simonis, play express rules, they've got it easy, blah, blah, blah.... Well the truth is that 2 spo was a completely offensive game. That's not to say it was a bad game, just that it was offense oriented. It is my opinion that express rules take a more multi-faceted (offense as well as defense) game. You not only have to run out but you have to think a little more to boot. There is a good reason that you and Buddy dominated the 70's and 80's. The two of you were the best smash mouth, straight shooting, run the f*ck out rotation pool players on the planet and you had the good fortune of playing an offense oriented game in 2 spo.

I don't care what sport it is, pool, golf, basketball, football, boxing, etc... The older players in each sport can't dominate in todays world/game like they did in their own era. Hogan was the king of golf until Arnie came along then Jack Nicklaus stole his thunder. Anyone want to debate who is better, Jack or Tiger? How about basketball? Jerry West raised the bar in the 60's, Kareem was top dog in the 70's, but then Jordan made everyone forget about them, now Lebron is taking basketball to another level beyond Jordan.... I'm not taking anything away from you or any of the past great players but it's my opinion that todays in pool have more of an arsenal and are better rounded than players in the past just the same as other sports. You and Buddy re-wrote pool history and raised the bar from the era before you and todays players are doing the same. It's just the natural progression of things.... Sure todays players have better cloth, better balls, tables, etc... But they also have more knowledge/information available to them and better equipment than you had in the 70's and 80's.

What did you guys know about breaking and racking back then? Rack'em tight and hit'em hard! Now there are videos and books on the science of reading racks, where to break from, etc... And there are cues deisgned specifically for breaking that have science behind them. How about jumping balls? It was one of the things that helped Earl take the game to a whole new level and how far has that come since Earl brought that to the table? The younger players also grew up with Accu-Stat videos, streaming video like TAR, and instructional books and videos.... You guys had to grind it out to learn all of that the hard way, now people can just soak it up watching a video or reading a book. It also helps that the younger generation is more healthy and fit. You guys had the misfortune of coming up in the "get the mixture right" generation. Everyone was doing it, it was just a sign of the times in the 70's and 80's, not just the pool world. A few still do things but for the most part pool is a clean game. Players players work out and play on the natural. Thats not a slam on the players from your era but now that you are sober (congrats BTW) how good could you have been on the square? It just all comes down to the fact that this generation does things a little better than the generation before them, it's just the nature of things.....

Ever since I have been around the game I have always asked the older players who was the best 9ball players they ever seen play were. I'm talking guys like Buddy, Cornbread, Vickery, Varner, Bucky Bell, Grady, etc... and they all put you and Buddy at the top of the heap by far. FWIW, Howard Vickery said that absolutely the best pool he ever seen played was you at maybe Tahoe??? one year and he said you never left the green room for like 4 days and every time he stopped by the room you were playing dead perfect pool. But if you ask players from the 90's they are going to say Earl, Johnny, Efren were the best ever and todays players are going to say that Alex, SVB and Corey are the best ever. It's all opinion and until someone figures out how to travel back in time we will never know the real answer.... But in the meantime there is no reason to get salty about it.....

Well said, rep to you sir.

 

[jayz]

I don't know what he'd spot Alex in his prime but playing even I'd say Alex would've had little chance against Keith. Keith was fearsome in his prime, I think a lot of todays players would've been a little intimidated by Keith's mega-offensive style.

If Keith played Alex when Keith was 25 years old, Keith could have spotted him the world. I don't believe Alex played too good at 5 years of age.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

You have to remember when Keith was in his prime the game was Rollout 9 Ball. His shotmaking abilities were the best ever. He would pushout to a shot that most players would make 10% of the time and he could make it 90% of the time. When Keith made these types of shots his opponent's arm would tighten up a little. When he did it again his opponent's arm would get a little tighter. God help them if they ever thought of rolling out against Keith - they knew they were going to sit down! Keith ran over people all the time like they weren't even there. I have been told that Keith could run high packages all the time on a barbox. I heard he has ran 13 and out in a race to 13 for the cash.

I saw Keith in a tournament once playing Jay Swanee Swanson when Jay had Keith 6-1. Jay came up dry on the break and Keith jumped out of his chair and announced to the crowd that it just cost Swanee the match. He then proceeded to run 6 and out to win the match. This was at the Sports Arena in Anaheim Hills CA and it was on 9' Rebco with tight pockets. His confidence about his game was unstoppable.

Todays one foul ball in hand doesn't require great shotmaking skills anymore and most players faced with a tough shot will play safe. This is why I think Keith could win against the players of today.

 

[jayz]

You have to remember when Keith was in his prime the game was Rollout 9 Ball. His shotmaking abilities were the best ever. He would pushout to a shot that most players would make 10% of the time and he could make it 90% of the time. When Keith made these types of shots his opponent's arm would tighten up a little. When he did it again his opponent's arm would get a little tighter. God help them if they ever thought of rolling out against Keith - they knew they were going to sit down! Keith ran over people all the time like they weren't even there. I have been told that Keith could run high packages all the time on a barbox. I heard he has ran 13 and out in a race to 13 for the cash.

I saw Keith in a tournament once playing Jay Swanee Swanson when Jay had Keith 6-1. Jay came up dry on the break and Keith jumped out of his chair and announced to the crowd that it just cost Swanee the match. He then proceeded to run 6 and out to win the match. This was at the Sports Arena in Anaheim Hills CA and it was on 9' Rebco with tight pockets. His confidence about his game was unstoppable.

Todays one foul ball in hand doesn't require great shotmaking skills anymore and most players faced with a tough shot will play safe. This is why I think Keith could win against the players of today.

I agree. Years ago I was on a road trip with Hawaiian Brian through Florida, and that's how he broke down a lot of good players, with his shot-making ability, especially cutting balls in in shoot out. the modern one foul ball in hand is more of an equalizer because of the luck involved.

 

[houmatroy]

Keith didn't have that t-shirt for nothing !

Keith didn't have that t-shirt say the world except the pinoys get the 8 on a 4x8....It said The world gets the 8 on a 4x8...I would say that's pretty strong.