Kicking And Banking By Feel Vs System

jimmyg

jimmyg

Mook! What's a Mook?
Silver Member
For someone that plays one five hour session only once a week I guess I'm holding my own as an lower/middle B player at this point. But I think my years of knowledge exceed my current lack of consistency. When it comes to kicking I do pretty well, while I'm not precise enough to often excute safeties from hooks, I know the rails well, know how english and speed affect the angle off the rails, will bend the cue ball off the rail with draw and follow, or can reverse off the rails to make a hit. And I usually bank pretty strongly.

The other night during my playing session I was playing a little on the strong side, I kicked in four balls, one easy one hanging in the pocket after kicking three rails and the other three object balls a foot or two away from the pocket or the middle of the table. I also only made contact several times and missed making contact about three times.

I use pure feel and experience for kicking and banking. I analyze the table and measure in my mind, but I don't use any special kicking system, any measuring with my cue, or use the diamond system, per se.

My question is this:
What do most of you do when it come to kicking and banking? I've noticed many less experienced players measuring the angles with their cues, and some of the systems seem to work fairly well for some. Can any of those systems work for someone like me or would it just clutter my thinking process at this stage? I'm interested in everyone's opinion, but especially the A's and above, I never see them using the cue to measure and they act, pretty much, as though they use feel as well.

Thanks all.
 
Some people pick up the feel really well, while others don't.Personally I was lost without studying kicking systems.Now I kick better than most of the locals.
RJ
 
I bank by feel since many times I'll use different english for leave or spin transfer. Kicking I've done more or less the same way with limited effect (still learning, no big deal), but I've tried a little bit from the "kicking academy" that was posted here and have noticed an improvement. I'm sure from seeing more how the kicking works through the application of the techniques, it has helped me when I don't consciously apply them. I'd say at least trying out a few of the kicking methods could only improve your success.
 
i kick and bank by feel when i'm just playing for fun. but if something's on the line and the bank is off angle i use a system unless it's dead
 
I think understanding both systems may be best. With a working knowledge of daimond and other types of kicking systems you can use your touch or feel as a way to check yourself before you let go with your bank.

Manwon
 
I've been playing for 43 years, so I do it by feel as you do. But my 15 year-old son has only been at it for 8 years. Recently, I got him to sit down with a DVD by Leonard "Bugs" Rucker, all about banks and kicks. Now, Tony measures his banks and kicks with his cue, sometimes taking a couple of minutes about it. He's getting very tough to hook!

I suppose most people internalize the system eventually and just eyeball it.
 
I think studying the various systems for two and three rail kicks are very important. Getting a working knowledge of them goes a long way. However, in the end, those are simply aids to kicking well, and the key to the whole shebang, IMHO, is getting a feel for how a partcular table plays. The systems will get you on track, but won't always work. Especially when a table tracks short or long, compensation needs to be made, and that comes from feel. Ditto for banking.
 
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I found that after learning systems (watching grady's video, freddy's book, etc), ive started to be able to "see" angles and where to shoot at. Sometimes for a complicated kick that has to be really accurate i'll use a system but if its a simple kick or bank i'll shoot by feel.
 
I've taught my wife the cross-side/corner bank by using the "ghost" pocket and she's gettin' pretty darn good at it. She banks the table length corner pocket shots by feel. I bank almost exclusively by feel, and I consider myself at no worst to be a better-than-average banker.
Kick shots, at least those that I'm trying to make, are one of my main weaknesses (along with medium to long combination shots). Being as that I'm from Texas and being lousy at kick shots, I guess you could call me a "$hit-kicker":D !!!

Maniac
 
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i bank mostly by feel, although if i had more table time i would find a good system. For one rail kicks i go sight it out and go with feel, for more than that i use the system basivich teaches in him dvd about dividing the distance between the 2 balls thru the nearest pocket then shifting the cue over and parallel to get your aimpoint, works great.
 
I've tried the systems and they did help, but they are no substitute for just lots and lots of banks and kicks.
I gave up on the diamond system as it is just too much for my addled, old brain to remember. :D
 
Studying and practicing from systems has definitely helped on my banking and kicking. I use feel to adjust for the table conditions but knowing the systems allows me to see and recognize suituations that I would have not seen before.

Of particular value to me were the Banking With the Beard book and the Dr. Cue kicking and banking videos.
 
Just wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions on some good books/videos.

Been looking for something on this topic that was good for a while. Most sites I have went to that try to explain the diamond system do a pretty obscure way of giving examples.
 
Regardless of how you do it, I would say the first real goal to strive for is to be able to make most of the simple banks you see and to be able to hit the object ball at all on kicks.

BUT, that alone will not win you too many games. What will win you games is stage 2: to be able to play position off of simple banks and to be able to control the hit on kicks. What I mean by control the hit on kicks is to play cue ball shape off the kick and control the direction and speed of the object ball after contact. These skills will lead you to the bank and run-out and the kick-safe, which are the weapons you really want in your arsenal.

I improved my skills in this area by simply practicing kicks and banks for about 20 to 30 minutes a session, 3 times a week, for a few months. I set out about 10 balls near the side rails, took ball in hand on most shots, and pocketed banks to the sides and corners. Eventually I could aim them just like a regular shot using a lot of visualization. I also set up balls off the rails and tried to aim the object ball at a pocket (and make it) with a kick.

With practice you can get to be pretty precise with kick shots, to the point of pocketing balls. I would suggest avoiding english on kicks and banks when you can.

Chris
 
catscradle said:
I've tried the systems and they did help, but they are no substitute for just lots and lots of banks and kicks.
I gave up on the diamond system as it is just too much for my addled, old brain to remember. :D
Click to expand...

I tend to agree about feel developed through practice as you stated. Each table and condition cause the ball to play a bit different on banks, when more than one rail it is more pronounced.

I do use the diamond system once in a while just to see how the table is playing then go to visualizing and feel (speed is most of the feel how the bank reacts).
 
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