Kiln vs. Air dried playability

Double-Dave said:
He declined when I told him this (very, very nice) birdseye maple was Kiln dried and told me he happily
pays around 50% more for air dried wood....
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There are numerous types of kilns that all effectively dry wood. Only some of the types use excessive heat. Several never even allow for the wood to be heated above 100*. If you air dry a stack of maple in MI during the summer months, the wood will get hotter and will experience more extremes than if it were dried in my low temp DH kiln. Out here in NM, if I were to try air drying maple in this hot, arid environment, it would spider web crack and deteriorate. Point is that you can't generalize kilns. To refuse wood because it's "kiln dried" is ridiculous.

Besides, wood will equalize to every new environment it encounters, regardless of how it was dried. For instance, I build a cue in my shop at 80* & 15%RH, the wood has 3.5%mc. If I send the cue to Pensacola where it'll be the same 80* but with 80%RH, the wood will equalize to 15.7%mc. Not a huge deal until it gets resold to a guy in Tucson and the wood equalizes again to very low single digit RH. It's very much like drying the wood again, which can cause stress. A very good shaft will survive. A questionable shaft will warp. At what point does it matter which method was used to initially dry the wood?

The only reason to push one drying method over the other is if you have a product to push, or else just don't know any better. The USDA has several studies posted that they either conducted by themselves or endorse, which clearly explain the differences and similarities between drying methods. More importantly, they post kiln schedules to aid operators in producing the highest quality product possible. A lot of the info is available with a google search, if anybody is so inclined to actually learn.
 
Joe Barringer said:
I'd be leery of reading an air dried article from a salvage wood seller. As cue makers, we don't work with 8/4 or need to. Most wood we use is 4/4 and exotics are 6/4. We're not making furniture where there are large surface areas for visual beauty nor are we supporting a second floor or sitting on it.

Properly dried wood using a kiln where the kiln operator is responsible produces great wood. It's when the kiln operator is in a rush where he needs to turn product fast to buy dinner is where the problem resides in improperly dried wood. Unfortunately, many cue makers utilize these wood sellers because they're cheap or provide visually acceptable products.

Bottom-line: kiln dried, air dried or slow roasted over an open fire - no one is going to be able to prove that a BE forearm that is air dried plays better than a kiln dried BE forearm as the OP related to us especially after the cue is constructed with all its components. It's the sum of all the parts that makes the cue play a certain way.

And then equilibrium is brought into the discussion. Equilibrium where? In the Amazon jungle, in Vegas, in Key West, in Canada? The equilibrium will be different in each of those places and fail when brought to adjacent areas. No so with proper kiln drying as the wood is dried to specific factors and equalized all the same. For building cues, I'll take kiln dried every time!

P.S. air dried wood works but it is not necessary nor any better.
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Joe, I agree with you only because of my personal observations over the 11 years I have been deal with processing my wood. So like everyone else here I have my own opinion and they are in lock step with your post.

What I have found to be true is that once the shaft wood is seasoned which means dried, the travel speed of the taper turn has more effect on the wood concerning shocking the wood.

What does your experience and observations reveal concerning shocking wood and do you have an opinion and definition concern shocking wood while turning.

I have some very interesting observations I wish to share here Joe, but before I go into it I would really like to pick your brain as you have many more years in the game than I do and have processed more squares to rods than anyone else on the forum me thinks.

Thanks for anyone else who also wishes to share thoughts or experience with the so called shocking of the wood especially concerning shaft taper turning.

Rick
 
Murray Tucker said:
I don't lose much wood to warpage.

Unfortunately I do lose a bunch because I have a screw loose.
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I heard you take 15 minutes per pass ( .005" cut ) on your cnc taperer with Komo motor spindle and custom 20-flute bit.
I can't wait till someone tops that.
Next one probably massages the wood with air before taking a cut.
 
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No need to season wood that will be cut off later. After I cone them they hang a year and then the taper cuts start.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Next one probable massages the wood with air before taking a cut.
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I play soothing melodies at loud volume (to overcome the machine noise) to keep the wood sedated while cutting it's outer skin off. Increased my overall success by 80%. Then, during the hanging months, I play lullabies to keep the sleeping wood happy. :boring:
On a more serious note, I agree with the others that air-dried forearms or handles will not have a difference over kiln dried wood, that can be felt after the whole cue is assembled. It may be their opinion, but it isn't a fact with any supporting evidence, IMO.
DAve
 
Dave38 said:
I play soothing melodies at loud volume (to overcome the machine noise) to keep the wood sedated while cutting it's outer skin off. Increased my overall success by 80%. Then, during the hanging months, I play lullabies to keep the sleeping wood happy. :boring:
On a more serious note, I agree with the others that air-dried forearms or handles will not have a difference over kiln dried wood, that can be felt after the whole cue is assembled. It may be their opinion, but it isn't a fact with any supporting evidence, IMO.
DAve
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My shaft wood prefers Fleetwood Mac. The coco digs a little KISS though...
 
JoeyInCali said:
I heard you take 15 minutes per pass ( .005" cut ) on your cnc taperer with Komo motor spindle and custom 20-flute bit.
I can't wait till someone tops that.
Next one probably massages the wood with air before taking a cut.
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Joey,

I will try to top that but not sure.

80 Tooth Freud Triple Chip Flat Ground Carbide 10" saw blade at 6 minute travel gives me over 2 million touches of conventional cutting per shaft cycle.

DC controled motors.

Blades sharpened every 300 passes. 6 minute travel speeds and very sharp carbide blade reduces the shock factor to the wood.

Vernier controlled Adjustable spring loaded tail stock for repeatable tail stock pressure on shaft. The pressure must be so light that it is almost not enough to drive the tailstock live center. With the perfect pressure you are on the verge of rumming on the 60 center in the wood. A little spit on the center finds that goldielocks set point.

High end sealed bearings on both live and dead centers. $12.00 bearings on a press fit shaft have .003 run out. If you buy the good ones for $ 60.00 each, you get about .001 TRO.

Gravity feed follow rest with 19 gram Teflon bulleted business end and always cut a minimum .010 kerf. Except for the last spring pass @ 0. With out a rest there will be some frequency oscillation in the center or weakest area of the taper so the light .005 pass will give the shaft the opportunity to go into phugoid oscillation and it will bounce causing that area to become eccentric ( egg shaped ) and blur later between centers when viewed in a wood lathe at 1500 rpm . Without a rest, the last pass at .010 will give the blade more insertion into the kerf thus less opportunity to bounce in the middle. It will not eliminate the oscillation however. With the follow rest with the proper gram weighted bullet - Forgetaboutit! Set it and forget it!

I recently added my follow rest at the beginning of 2014 and if I had to give it up, I would quit cue making. Freaking Awesome!

I like Murray, don't get many warped shafts. If you buy good selected wood planks, process the wood correctly and use very repeatable machining controls, even wood that is less dense can spin like a laser between centers, every time!!!! Warped wood should be culled from the herd about one year after establishing the initial taper after cutting the second full taper cut or about .950 and letting it rest before seeing the bump. Then to the trash. Even hogging passes need to be slow also as not to shock the wood. I used to hog at 3 minute passes and the shock factor was rearing it's ugly head even with very sharp blades and I had no idea what was going on. The plane was flying me and I was not in control. Then I got religion and Joey Gold ( Master Yoda ) turned me on the the slow travel and explained the shocking factor to me concerning sharping cycles and saw blade rotation on my machines. After 300 passes I move the blade to my butt saw machine where it is less critical because of the dia. of the butts vs. oscillation and deflection factor.

If you make and use a follow rest as shown below. You will be happy. I guarantee it!:thumbup::happydance:

As to the OPs question, anyone who believes they can tell the difference between air or kiln dried hit is living in metaphysical world and is ruled by a collective thought, not reason. Since no two woods have the same fingerprint for tonality, how could you ever establish a baseline or be objective with a comparison especially when the hit is a subjective idea or notion. These things are organic for God's sake!

JMO,

Rick


Gravity Feed Teflon Bullet Follow Rest. This Gizmo is the most effective fixture in my shop and has the most profound end result. The effect it has on my shaft processing and final product can not be described in words. Well maybe "Nirvana" might do! LOL

 
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Murray Tucker said:
Not me. From dowel to a .6 to .9 cone in 7 minutes.

http://youtu.be/4EP3FqV_cFE
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That's almost exactly how I do it. Cut them fast initially to around .600, then the next cutting session to .575, and so on until I eventually reach final size. I'm not too worried about it, anyway as my shafts cost pennies & sweat. One of the many obvious reasons to cut my own trees.....cheap shafts. Me buying shafts would be like a cattle rancher buying beef.
 
Vibration dampening is a big deal in machine shops these days. Hence the number of cutter companies that are now making variable tooth cutter geometry. On my setup, I got made variable pitch router cutters to get rid of the harmonic vibrations.
Balsa wood is also very good at vibration dampening, and so can be urethane rubber.
Neil
 
kiln

Well crap, guess I just haven't been making it complicated enough.
3/16 bosch straight router bit, plain old taig headstock and tailstock.

To everything turn, turn turn
The Byrds
 
conetip said:
Vibration dampening is a big deal in machine shops these days. Hence the number of cutter companies that are now making variable tooth cutter geometry. On my setup, I got made variable pitch router cutters to get rid of the harmonic vibrations.
Balsa wood is also very good at vibration dampening, and so can be urethane rubber.
Neil
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Neil,

I hear you concerning the variable tooth cutter geometry?

It is hard to hear the cutting sound when everything is adjusted just right.

Rick
 
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cutter said:
Well crap, guess I just haven't been making it complicated enough.
3/16 bosch straight router bit, plain old taig headstock and tailstock.

To everything turn, turn turn
The Byrds
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My machine uses a Taig head and tail stock. Keep it simple.
 
scdiveteam said:
Neil,

I hear you concerning the variable tooth cutter geometry?

It is hard hear the cutting sound when everything is adjusted just right.

Rick
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The variable tooth geometry is really just the work around for machine tools that can not make the spindle accelerate and decelerate to change the frequency of the cutting itself. Some machines can do that, while most can't.
When everything is right, you will not hear what is happening and the shaft/handle will come out so smooth that sanding will only make it worse.
Most who have there system working right will realise this anyway.
Neil
 
conetip said:
The variable tooth geometry is really just the work around for machine tools that can not make the spindle accelerate and decelerate to change the frequency of the cutting itself. Some machines can do that, while most can't.
When everything is right, you will not hear what is happening and the shaft/handle will come out so smooth that sanding will only make it worse.
Most who have there system working right will realise this anyway.
Neil
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Shinny and burnished shafts after the machining is the goal. They need a sanding just to open the grain to accept or wick the sealer into the wood.
 
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Neil, at 24,000 rpm spindle speed , 200 rpm spinning and 12 inches per minute
travel speed, I don't think variable grind has any merit.
On stationary piece, yes.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Neil, at 24,000 rpm spindle speed , 200 rpm spinning and 12 inches per minute
travel speed, I don't think variable grind has any merit.
On stationary piece, yes.
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Joey,

Not quite sure if I got this right concerning my understanding of the variable grind concept that Neil brought up but I purchased these TCG Grind saw blades after doing some research and they are off the wall. I used to use simple flat top grind blades and was advised to use that type by Leonard. After experimenting with the TCG Freud blades - geeez louise what a difference to the RMS finish throughout the entire contour. It can cut many materials but the results with maple is stellar.

When the blade is spinning without cutting anything it sounds very different than what my ear was accustomed to hearing. During cutting with these blades I can barely hear the sound of the blade cutting a .010 kerf when using the rest. There is like only one frequency that you hear.

Triple Chip Grind:

A Triple Chip Grind (TCG) has a trapezoidal tip that cuts a groove with slanting sides. This is followed up by a square top tip that makes the side of the groove square. The first tooth, or lead tooth, has a double 45 degree angle corner bevel. This is followed by a flat topped raker tooth ground lower than the lead tooth. The raker tooth removes the corners left on both sides by the beveled lead tooth. Triple Chip Grinds combines a balanced cutting force, low tooth drag and free chip flow. This helps to eliminate chipping in brittle material such as chip board, and laminates. This divides the chips to achieve smooth cuts in hard materials such as MDF, OSB, and plastics. This tooth design is also used on blades for cutting non-ferrous material. Use TCG grind when cutting plastics, aluminum, and non ferrous metals.

JMO,

Rick
 
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