Kiln vs. Air dried playability

[Joe Barringer]

I'm not even going to bother reading that novel of jibberish. You're wrong, Joe. Simple as that. I asked for you to post up some legitimate evidence from a known source that would contradict my posts, but you couldn't do it. Rather you go into a rant that I haven't read nor will I. I posted 3 links that clearly support my posts, and trust me there are many, many more I can pool from that all break it down exactly the same way. Point being, if you're going to debate a scientific topic, at least understand the subject matter and have sources to support your stance. It's not an opinion based topic.

Of course you’re not going to read it because you cannot respond to my specific questions. You quote nonsense links that have no bearing on anything I was talking about. Just because it’s in print on the internet doesn’t mean kiln operators use the process correctly. You’re a know-it-all who actually thinks he knows everything about everything. What I forgot about wood and processing wood you have yet to learn.

I’ve processed more wood last month that you’ll process in your entire “career” as a cue maker. Incredible.

Don't know much about this subject on a technical level, but I have bought dowels from Other suppliers and bought the same amount from Joe over the last 5-6 years, and they all seem to have the same ratio of WARPED dowels right out of the box, without any processing time from me. A year or 5 later, they are still warped the same still untouched by any of my machines. If his wood is so relieved, then there should have been less, MUCH less in his batch compared to the others. What I consider warped is anywhere from .250" -.400" wobble anywhere along the 30" dowel.
I have to agree with Eric, that the kiln drying doesn't take care of any growth stress contained in the wood, only the casehardening stress created from the kiln process itself, .......IMO
Dave

Do you have a mind of your own? How far up Erics butt are you? Obviously pretty far to make the statement you made. It's obvious that you are a not a cue maker nor do you have the first clue about building a cue to comment about shaft wood. From what I understand you don’t have $$$ to buy shafts let alone comment on their stability. Maybe you should process your wood instead of denigrating others. Go find something useful to do.

And that’s my opinion based on processing tens of thousands of shafts.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Joe, if you want to continue posting here, it will need to be with a much less combative tone.

Clear?

 

[Dave38]

Do you have a mind of your own? How far up Erics butt are you? Obviously pretty far to make the statement you made. It's obvious that you are a not a cue maker nor do you have the first clue about building a cue to comment about shaft wood. From what I understand you don’t have $$$ to buy shafts let alone comment on their stability. Maybe you should process your wood instead of denigrating others. Go find something useful to do.

And that’s my opinion based on processing tens of thousands of shafts.

I guess he now has much more time to process his shafts....
Dave

 

[Joe Barringer]

I guess he now has much more time to process his shafts....
Dave

Just had a few moments to post as it's been busy...

Yes Dave, we've been processing many, many shafts. I'm glad to see that you've been busy too.

 

[bstroud]

When I started to make cues in 1968, I didn't know very much about wood.

I called the National Forest Products Lab and spoke at length to one of the scientists. He told me it would take over 200 years for an air dried piece of Maple to stabilize. I took him at his word.

Bill S.

 

[scdiveteam]

When I started to make cues in 1968, I didn't know very much about wood.

I called the National Forest Products Lab and spoke at length to one of the scientists. He told me it would take over 200 years for an air dried piece of Maple to stabilize. I took him at his word.

Bill S.

Bill,

I have heard that same type of thing from an expert myself. He said over 100 years but what's an extra 100 when your storing shaft stock. Lol

I certainly would not build my stairs out of air dried maple stock let alone build a shaft or handle from it.

Can you even buy air dried planks? Not sure that is an option unless your chopping down the damn tree yourself!

Rick

BTW, I don't buy my wood from Joe. In fact I don't do any business with Joe at all. That been said I do respect Joe and i like him because he is a character who has been around the block a time or two.

There are 3 cue maker friends of mine that build cues in my shop. All three buy their shafts from Joe and I got to tell you that I have seen some mighty fine 11.00 shafts go through my saw machine that Joe sold them and the rejection factor is almost identical to the shaft wood I process cherry picking kiln dried 5/4 stair stock planks from Iron Mt. Mich that I dowel myself.

I have been processing my own shaft wood for over 10 years and my rejection rate is much lower that what I hear that is going on in other shops. I am not bragging or saying my wood picking is better than anyone else so don't start flaming me. What I am trying to do is share with the forum as a peer.

Frankly the one thing I don't sweat is a warped shaft because I take cuts on them for years. I currently am delivering shafts that are from 2008 -09 that have been at .600 for at lest two years. This is the point where they are used or go to the trash.

If you think you can buy shafts from Joe, have them delivered and make shafts out of them right away your going to have more rejects. I truly believe that shafts must acclimate and are better if they season in your shop after you cut your taper a few times.

I also know for a fact that many many CMs I talk to hog and fine cut the shafts way too fast on the travel speed. Joey Gold told me that if you are not taking your taper passes at 6 minutes of slower you are shocking the wood and that is not good for a stable shaft. The shaft gets shocked to hell when it is doweled and the initial taper is cut and the hogging must be slow travel also. After that you need to stay slow on the travel let the wood acclimate and season between passes.

There are puppy farms in Asia blasting out shafts for the fifty dollar cue market. I sold over 200 NIck Varner Cues at my pool hall and Nick told me that when I got a bad shaft just send it back and he would replace it. My point is there were a percentage of them that were bad but most were ok. So you can cut shafts fast and make a gazillion of them and get good shafts. When they are bad just send out another. That is a numbers game.

As Custom Cue Makers we can not afford the bad reputation that comes from warped shafts. So it seems to me that before I send a shaft out with a cue I want to have a relationship with that piece of wood over time and taper passes. It just makes sense to me.

If you are ordering shafts to make a cue this month, don't complain to Joe or anybody else about quality when it is your own fault if it goes south. Examine your process.

I charge 150.00 To 200.00 for a 4.00 piece of wood. The money I earn for the amount of time I put into the processing and building of each shaft is not that much per hour when you figure it out. The work however has to be done for quality control reasons.

Food for thought.

 

[qbilder]

It doesn't take take 200yrs for air dried wood to stabilize. There's nothing to even suggest it, except for here say. One year per inch of thickness is the general rule, and it's well documented, widely accepted.

I got a brownie point for anybody that knows what it means for a piece of wood to "stabilize". Anybody? Exactly what does that term mean? Dry is dry and wet is wet and acclimation is acclimation. So where does "stabilize" fit?

 

[Joe Barringer]

Dumb question: Since no one ever lived to being 200 years old, how does one claim or know that wood takes 200 years to dry? Some things never change on here.

 

[scdiveteam]

Point of clarification:

Bill said stabilize not "to dry".

Stabilize:

› to cause something to become fixed and stop changing, esp. in order to keep it from becoming worse, or to become fixed and stop changing:

What rate of stabilization is the question: I don't know but let's say to is 100% stabilized in 100 years. That does not mean it is not 99% stabilized in 10 years. This stabilization process may be an inverse square proportion type of thing which is my best guess. It may never completely stabilize unless it petrifies. Now we are really splitting hairs. Bowling ally shafts, lake wood shafts are just gimmicks to me but the guy that starts selling petrified shafts will have the biggest balls as a snake oil man! LOL

I had a cue for over ten years that rolled perfect on the rail and the table. Never put it in a trunk or stored on a outside wall. Did not play with it for a few years and all of a sudden the ferrule jumped a wee bit. I really don't know what kind of wood that maker used???

So I don't think anyone can say it does not take a long time for non kiln dried wood to completely stabilize.

Also as Joe pointed out some Kiln operators doubtless do better jobs that other that may cut corners.

There are a lot of variables in this matrix.

JMO,

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Point of clarification:

Bill said stabilize not "to dry".

Stabilize:

› to cause something to become fixed and stop changing, esp. in order to keep it from becoming worse, or to become fixed and stop changing:

What rate of stabilization is the question: I don't know but let's say to is 100% stabilized in 100 years. That does not mean it is not 99% stabilized in 10 years. This stabilization process may be an inverse square proportion type of thing which is my best guess. It may never completely stabilize unless it petrifies. Now we are really splitting hairs. Bowling ally shafts, lake wood shafts are just gimmicks to me but the guy that starts selling petrified shafts will have the biggest balls as a snake oil man! LOL

I had a cue for over ten years that rolled perfect on the rail and the table. Never put it in a trunk or stored on a outside wall. Did not play with it for a few years and all of a sudden the ferrule jumped a wee bit. I really don't know what kind of wood that maker used???

So I don't think anyone can say it does not take a long time for non kiln dried wood to completely stabilize.

Also as Joe pointed out some Kiln operators doubtless do better jobs that other that may cut corners.

There are a lot of variables in this matrix.

JMO,

Rick

How about location?
Would a piece in Alabama or Bangkok EVER stabilize????

 

[qbilder]

Point of clarification:

Bill said stabilize not "to dry".

Stabilize:

› to cause something to become fixed and stop changing, esp. in order to keep it from becoming worse, or to become fixed and stop changing:

What rate of stabilization is the question: I don't know but let's say to is 100% stabilized in 100 years. That does not mean it is not 99% stabilized in 10 years. This stabilization process may be an inverse square proportion type of thing which is my best guess. It may never completely stabilize unless it petrifies. Now we are really splitting hairs. Bowling ally shafts, lake wood shafts are just gimmicks to me but the guy that starts selling petrified shafts will have the biggest balls as a snake oil man! LOL


So I don't think anyone can say it does not take a long time for non kiln dried wood to completely stabilize.

Also as Joe pointed out some Kiln operators doubtless do better jobs that other that may cut corners.

There are a lot of variables in this matrix.

JMO,

Rick

Rick, please provide documented sources to support what you just wrote. Here's a few things I would like for you, Bill, or anybody on planet Earth, to clarify:

-How does stabilization pertain to wood and how does that contrast with acclimation? You can have one or the other. Wanna guess which?

-What corners can kiln operators cut, exactly? Is 6% not 6%? I'm interested ONLY in how it pertains to the "stabilization" that you claim is a real phenomena.

-Why would it take so long for air dried lumber to "stabilize" compared to kiln dried wood if both are dried to the exact same mc? Further yet, which type of drying induces the least stress on the wood? There are many types of kilns and other drying methods.

I want hard documented sources that I can review for myself. If what you claim is not absolute make believe, then it should be easy enough to provide links to your sources, or titles & authors of books from which you attain this knowledge. I'm not interested in your opinion or experience. I only want rock solid fact that is proven and accepted. Fact is inarguable, so there's nothing to debate. Either you have the facts or you don't. That goes for anybody. I haven't had any issue providing sources to support my argument, yet nobody else seems to be so inclined. If you would only read and understood the links I provided earlier in the thread, you would never have posted what you just did. I provided facts with support. Did you take a moment to check my sources? Why does this thread continue? Why do people continue to ignore factual data and instead favor superstition and propaganda? We could all get a lot farther if we could cut the bs and get down to the nitty gritty.

And there aren't "many variables in the matrix". Wood science is easier to grasp than long hand division. It's not complicated, but it does require understanding.

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick, please provide documented sources to support what you just wrote. Here's a few things I would like for you, Bill, or anybody on planet Earth, to clarify:

-How does stabilization pertain to wood and how does that contrast with acclimation? You can have one or the other. Wanna guess which?

-What corners can kiln operators cut, exactly? Is 6% not 6%? I'm interested ONLY in how it pertains to the "stabilization" that you claim is a real phenomena.

-Why would it take so long for air dried lumber to "stabilize" compared to kiln dried wood if both are dried to the exact same mc? Further yet, which type of drying induces the least stress on the wood? There are many types of kilns and other drying methods.

I want hard documented sources that I can review for myself. If what you claim is not absolute make believe, then it should be easy enough to provide links to your sources, or titles & authors of books from which you attain this knowledge. I'm not interested in your opinion or experience. I only want rock solid fact that is proven and accepted. Fact is inarguable, so there's nothing to debate. Either you have the facts or you don't. That goes for anybody. I haven't had any issue providing sources to support my argument, yet nobody else seems to be so inclined. If you would only read and understood the links I provided earlier in the thread, you would never have posted what you just did. I provided facts with support. Did you take a moment to check my sources? Why does this thread continue? Why do people continue to ignore factual data and instead favor superstition and propaganda? We could all get a lot farther if we could cut the bs and get down to the nitty gritty.

And there aren't "many variables in the matrix". Wood science is easier to grasp than long hand division. It's not complicated, but it does require understanding.

Eric,

Your points are well taken. I understand how much you have studied this stuff.

These forms are about people opinions based on experience. I have been lurking on some forester forums now and then over the years and air drying is not such a simple thing like most might assume. Stacking and placement of the little cross boards and other things seem to be a detailed art which I admit I don't practice in my shop. I purchase kiln dried wood on 98% of what use I am guessing.

The thing that jumps out all the time is that the drawbacks of air drying is that it is more prone to checking, staining, mold and insect infestation. So I don't think that is such a big deal for most woods if done indoors but for maple shaft wood it can be critical concerning the staining to some people IMO.

People who operate a kiln can have different qualities of final product based on the details of their operation procedures.

I am not a wood expert and have learned a lot by listening to you and others here. My motivation to post here was strictly to state that the way you cut your wood is also very important concerning the final outcome quality of a shaft. Observing shaft wood over time after many cuts is cheap insurance air dried or kiln dried.

Bill's post spoke to a huge amount of time for wood to be completely stable as a material. I have heard that too but who knows exactly the case as we all know everybody has an opinion but there may be more to stabilization of wood than just regulation of moisture, rehydration and such. I am sure that it is the same for kiln or air dried after acclimation to an environment and it does not effect the hit as to keep with the OPs question.

A lot of wood moves, we all know that and that is why many core their fronts and handles or full core these days. With shafts you got to treat the tapered pieces with kit gloves after they are dried the way I see this.

JMO,

Rick

 

[qbilder]

The thing that jumps out all the time is that the drawbacks of air drying is that it is more prone to checking, staining, mold and insect infestation. So I don't think that is such a big deal for most woods if done indoors but for maple shaft wood it can be critical concerning the staining to some people IMO.

These issues only affect green wood, and only if left to the elements. None of these issues are a threat to wood that is handled properly. Maple will be brilliant white if air dried properly. It will be brilliant white if kiln dried properly. Key word is "proper". I can assure you there is zero difference in stability between air and kiln dried maple. None.

Further more, stability in wood is make believe fantasy. The only way wood is "stable" is if it's stored in a specific atmosphere that never changes. For instance, I build a cue from some of Bill's shaft wood, that he swears is "stable". My shop is 75* and 18%RH. That means the wood has 4.1%mc. I send the cue to you in Chitown where your shop is 75* and 50%RH. The wood will quickly acclimate to hold 9.2%mc. Is that stable? Hell no it's not stable. It more than doubled its moisture content just by shipping it across the country. Wouldn't you agree that such a sudden and drastic change could cause movement? You can't control it. I can't control it. Bill can't control it. Nobody can. It's an organic material. If it does warp, does that mean I am a bad cue maker or that Bill's wood is junk? No. It means none of those things. It means only that an organic material reacted to an atmospheric change. It's called "acclimation". That's why I argue that there is no such thing as stable wood.

Some woods are more prone to movement, and some are less. But none are absolutely stable. A shaft that can be sent all around the world and stay straight, is a testament to the quality of the wood, not the stability. It acclimates the same as any other piece of wood. It just doesn't have any major internal stress, and is resistant to stressing as it encounters moisture exchange. It's not stable. It changes the same as all wood. It's just that the changes do not result in movement. Doesn't mean it won't eventually, just that it hasn't yet. That's the difference between good wood and bad wood, and the ONLY legitimate reason we cut shafts slowly over time. It's so we can cull the wood that's prone to movement. The time doesn't make the wood better, but merely exposes the bad stuff. We want it to warp in our shop instead of a player's case. We send out the shafts that stayed straight in our shop, with a degree of confidence they will stay that way. But not all of them do. This is the reason many of us have adopted the "4 seasons" approach to cutting shafts. It allows the shafts to encounter various different humidity and temperature levels BEFORE they are sent out. If at any point they significantly move, then they get tossed because chances are good they'll move again. Many straighten out again, then move again. But explain that to your customer & expect them to understand. Best is to only send out shafts that are least prone to movement, but you'll never know if they haven't been subjected to various climatic conditions. Again, there's no such thing as stability in wood, unless it's kept in a stable atmosphere. And it has zero to do with the initial drying method. There is nothing wrong with air dried wood.