TCG has pretty much been the standard blade for decades, less tear out and flatter bottom saw kerfs. For a better shaft cutting blade, have the outer tips ground to the same height as the top of the flat section on the raker tooth.
Kiln vs. Air dried playability
- Thread starter Double-Dave
- Start date
Thanks for sharing that Paul. It makes sense to me to have them sharpened that way for our application now that you mentioned it. We're not ripping into laminate material. :thumbup:
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TCG works on flat surfaces. Not on spinning cylinders.
How are those 3 tips going to hit the same surface area if the piece is spinning ?
TCG in fact would likely cause barber poll like scratches on spinning
cylinder.
You're better off with 5 to 15 degree hook I think.
How are those 3 tips going to hit the same surface area if the piece is spinning ?
TCG in fact would likely cause barber poll like scratches on spinning
cylinder.
You're better off with 5 to 15 degree hook I think.
For anti-kickback and smoother flat surface, yes.
For spinning cylinder, no use I think.
http://www.amanatool.com/articles/selecting-sawblades.html
Getting the top ground loses the purpose of TCG.
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Have not tried to sharpen as Paul suggested yet but am will to try it.
When used with my set up the TCG and .010 passes, one thing i do know is that this blade out perform the general flat top grind set up I used to use. Hands down.
Barber poling or marks on the shaft at any dia along the contour? LOL not a chance!
JMO,
Rick
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Cutting shafts from 1" dowel to 13mm at the rate you claim would take 98 cuts, at 6 minutes/ea amounting to almost 600 minutes of actual machine time. That's 10hrs. of machine time on each shaft, not counting the time it takes to put it in the machine, remove from machine, seal, and hang/store to wait for next cut. That comes out to 4 shafts in a 40hr week, if all you ever do is cut shafts and they don't hang between cuts. You mention bearings of .003" run out, so that .005" cut just became anything from .002"-.008", an incredible potential of slop, percentage wise. Every 300 cuts, which comes out to 30hrs of machine time, and it's time for either new blades or blade sharpening. I couldn't tell because you said both. Either way it works out to swapping blades every 4 days, 91 times/yr. It takes 98 cuts per shaft to go from 1" to 13mm, and you end up with only three shafts per blade.
Rick, I just said exactly what you said in your above post. Sounds totally different, though, doesn't it? The info is yours. I used your numbers. I just broke it down so I could understand it in real world, applicable terms. Hope you don't mind. Might it be out of line to ask how long your shafts rest between cuts?
Eric,
Of corse what you describe would be ridiculous. I am a very serious guy Eric and don't like do things that are ridiculous.
I hog at much larger passes when establishing the taper and go to .960. Once shafts are at .910 only .010 cuts during the building of the cue. My point was even hogging passes are at 6 minutes. I never said what my cuts depths were for my hogging. I don't take any passes under .010 for the reasons I stated. Not that I take all my passes at .010. I also failed to mentioned that all my hogging down to .910 are done with a 60 tooth flat grind blades. The 300 passes I mentioned was 6 or 7 passes from around .910 to .850 or 300 divided by 7 or 42 shafts from .910 to .850 before rotating in a new blade. I don't hog with my TCG blades. I only make 25 to 30 cues a year so I don't have to change that often to know my teeth are very sharp.
You need to re read my post. I mentioned 12.00 bearings with .003 run out are no good. 60.00 bearings with less that .001 run out is what I use. When I got my machines they had the cheaper bearings.
I am using blanks now that have been resting at .910 that are dated sept 09. Those were initial tapered sometime in 07or 08. There are over 600 at various stages in my shop.
I don't mind your observations but they seem to reflect some selective or fast reading or maybe I don't express my views too clearly. Not sure. A re read may clear that up but who re reads anyway?
Just trying to share with the forum as always.
JMO,
Rick
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Used to have shaft machine that was built over a table saw. Took 5 or 6 minutes a pass.
Now have CNC and it is way faster. I cut shafts at 50 ipm or about 40 seconds a pass with a 6 flute wing cutter on a 24,000 rpm router. Wish I had changed over sooner as it cuts way better than the shaft machine ever thought about. I can hog I inch dowel down to .900 x .600 cone in about 3 minutes.
Now have CNC and it is way faster. I cut shafts at 50 ipm or about 40 seconds a pass with a 6 flute wing cutter on a 24,000 rpm router. Wish I had changed over sooner as it cuts way better than the shaft machine ever thought about. I can hog I inch dowel down to .900 x .600 cone in about 3 minutes.
Whiteside 6801 and cnc spindle, Alex ?
That would be 9 cuts and 6 minutes total time to get to 13MM .
Not some one hour ( 6 minutes times 10 cuts ).
I hog out to .980-.650 taper shafts from 1" dowels in about 5 minutes if there is no offset. With offset it takes more time. I don't bother coning. I trust my woods . Plenty of room at .650 ends with less than 2MM taper to the middle.
Two minute passes after that ( months and years later ).
3 minutes would drive me nuts. No need for it. If you have to take 3 minutes on a spindle/router set-up you need a better cutter and spinner.
Two minutes or less to taper a butt too.
Table saw system are slower of course b/c the saw blade spins around 1750 RPM.
Not 20K+.
RBC
Deceased
Cuts per minute is a pretty commonly quoted thing when it comes to live tapering. But, at least in my research, it's not necessarily the most important.
Consider this. The tip of the saw or router blade is attempting to cut a straight slot. The only trouble is that the material it's cutting through is not only round, but it's also rotating.This rotation causes some unique things to happen. The tip does cut a straight slot, but it's not straight down the shaft, it's at a slight angle in the shaft. The slower the shaft turns, the closer to straight down the shaft that slot is and the faster it turns, the more of an angle relative to straight down the shaft it has. Conversely, the faster the tip is traveling, the straighter the slot, and so on.
Given that the slot is angled and moving while the tip is in it, we have to be aware of the relief on the sides of the tip. If the relief angle works out to be less than the angle of the slot, the cutting edge be pushed away from the cut surface. It's called "heeling" as in the heel of the cutter touches before the toe.
Also, we have to be aware of the speed. As mentioned, the faster the tip moves through the length of the cut, the more inline with the shaft the slot is. Therefore tip speed, at least to me, is much more important than the number of cuts in a given time frame.
A typical 10" table saw blade, cutting at 3450 rpm has a tip speed of 101mph. That's pretty fast!
A typical router bit at 1.875" diameter, cutting at 24000 rpm has a tip speed of 134mph. That's really fast!
We used to use standard routers spinning 30000 rpm and they had a tip speed of 167mph, which is significantly faster.
If Rick has overdriven his table saw blade, which I have done before, to 4400 rpm, then it's traveling at 131mph, which is actually close to the 134mph of our chinese routers.
When we switched to the chinese routers and lost some tip speed, we had to make changes to our programs to get things optimized again. It did cost us a little time, but we've made up for it in router maintenance and down time reduction. Plus it's a lot quieter!
I think that ideally, I would like to cut with a tip speed at around 200mph. It would only take a 2.25" blade at 24000 rpm, but I'm not sure how reliable it would be. The beauty of it would be that we could increase not only the rotational speed of the cue shaft but accordingly the feed rate as well. Theoretically, the shaft wouldn't know any difference, and the cycle time would be reduced.
Just some things to chew on. I know what works for us, and 5 or 6 minute cycle times just isn't it. Remember, we make about 3500 turning cycles every week. Each cycle is cutting both down and back, so that's 7000 passes. And that's just shafts, the cues are a whole different animal.
Royce
Consider this. The tip of the saw or router blade is attempting to cut a straight slot. The only trouble is that the material it's cutting through is not only round, but it's also rotating.This rotation causes some unique things to happen. The tip does cut a straight slot, but it's not straight down the shaft, it's at a slight angle in the shaft. The slower the shaft turns, the closer to straight down the shaft that slot is and the faster it turns, the more of an angle relative to straight down the shaft it has. Conversely, the faster the tip is traveling, the straighter the slot, and so on.
Given that the slot is angled and moving while the tip is in it, we have to be aware of the relief on the sides of the tip. If the relief angle works out to be less than the angle of the slot, the cutting edge be pushed away from the cut surface. It's called "heeling" as in the heel of the cutter touches before the toe.
Also, we have to be aware of the speed. As mentioned, the faster the tip moves through the length of the cut, the more inline with the shaft the slot is. Therefore tip speed, at least to me, is much more important than the number of cuts in a given time frame.
A typical 10" table saw blade, cutting at 3450 rpm has a tip speed of 101mph. That's pretty fast!
A typical router bit at 1.875" diameter, cutting at 24000 rpm has a tip speed of 134mph. That's really fast!
We used to use standard routers spinning 30000 rpm and they had a tip speed of 167mph, which is significantly faster.
If Rick has overdriven his table saw blade, which I have done before, to 4400 rpm, then it's traveling at 131mph, which is actually close to the 134mph of our chinese routers.
When we switched to the chinese routers and lost some tip speed, we had to make changes to our programs to get things optimized again. It did cost us a little time, but we've made up for it in router maintenance and down time reduction. Plus it's a lot quieter!
I think that ideally, I would like to cut with a tip speed at around 200mph. It would only take a 2.25" blade at 24000 rpm, but I'm not sure how reliable it would be. The beauty of it would be that we could increase not only the rotational speed of the cue shaft but accordingly the feed rate as well. Theoretically, the shaft wouldn't know any difference, and the cycle time would be reduced.
Just some things to chew on. I know what works for us, and 5 or 6 minute cycle times just isn't it. Remember, we make about 3500 turning cycles every week. Each cycle is cutting both down and back, so that's 7000 passes. And that's just shafts, the cues are a whole different animal.
Royce
yes but! If the TCG geometry is in fact doing its job on a cylinder "meaning angle vs. width of the opposing teeth are not so significant that they miss the center of the shaft" then you are effectively getting 352,000 / 3 cuts per minute. just in different spots on the shaft.
Initially thought the TCG was bs but after thinking about it "drew it in ACAD" i believe it could work beautifully as long as the angles are not so severe they miss entirely on lite cuts.
Its my understanding that TCG is grouped in 3's. How do you divide 80 teeth by 3? not trying to be a smartass
I just wanted to interject, this is the most interesting read I have found on AZB in MONTHS!!!
TAP TAP TAP
carry one gentlemen!
TAP TAP TAP
carry one gentlemen!
No, the bit is Everlast EBS614E which is 2" x 1/4" 6 slot cutter. I like it better than Whiteside as it is bigger and has better tip speed.
I cut at 50 inches per minute on all passes and only cut in one direction. So if a shaft is 30 inches it takes 40 seconds to make the pass and another 10 seconds for the head to return to the start. After hogging to cone each pass after that takes about 50 seconds and another 5 or 10 to change to another shaft.
WOW! You guys have really been busy over the weekend. :thumbup:
Intermittent tooth geometry. When hogging all the teeth are engaged in the kerf. Btw, I used to think the saw spun at 1750 Rpm but the laser tach tells me that my two grizzly machines are at 4400 rpm.
I am in Oklahoma to pick up a turret lathe but when I get back to my shop I will measure the offset of the blade tops. It is not that noticeable to the eye.
You observations are not smart ass because your questions are valid. Paul suggested that he has the blades sharpened at the same elevation and I will try that myself because I value and respect his experience.
Since every other blade is a different and has a different mass, that may explain why they have such a different sound when cutting and also produce a very noticeable RMS improvement to the contour. Even when these blade are just cutting air the sound is vary different than my 60 tooth FTG,
When used with my new follow rest the shafts are unreal. I recently added a new superpro taper and I had 4 shaft rejects and the new steady rest was the engineering solution to to the oscillation in the weakest part of the contour. With the rest I have cut some very thin team Philippine type shafts at 11.40 down to 9.50 MM. No wobble between center with only a .001 climb from -14" to the end of the ferrule. I have a compound geometry blending the parabolic back end of the shaft into the new front taper.
So when the shaft is rolled on the table the is a great deal of curved contour where light or a gap is viewed under the shaft. With the rest and these blade, the curved air gap remains constant when rolled. Man I was losing sleep over this stuff until the solution was found. With my old modern pro fast climb I never had a problem but with the very thin shaft with a slight climb it was like building a ford compared to a Ferrari. At lot of players today want a long stroke like Shane and this was my method of achieving repeatability to that end.
I hope others who might be dealing with a dilemma like mine could use this shared thought. After all this forum has held me very much in my development.
Rick
Are you sure it's not .002" climb at the 14" mark?
Are you guys putting me on or something. 
C’mon, you’re really kidding here:
fingerprint tonality, ACAD, Intermittent tooth geometry, cuts per minute, elevation, straight slots, relative angle, blade mass, tip speed, engineering solutions, 24,000rpm, 30,000rpm, contours, air gap, Chinese routers, rotational speed, gravity feed follow rest, theoretically, cycle times, vernier controlled adjustable spring loaded tail stock, variable tooth geometry, variable grind concept
I must be in the stone ages with our set-up which we just turn on and cut shafts. And I thought it was just so easy to do. I think I’m going to rip mine apart and make it much more complicated because it's just too easy our way.
Where to start! I have 4 Columbo Routers. Should I throw them away and start fresh? I use cheap router blades and my cuts are as smooth as a baby's tuchas (butt). We're obviously doing something wrong because we don't have any of those words used above in our set-up.
Between setting up these incredible machines with their tonal fingerprints and intermittent tooth geometry plus posting numerous times on AZ - how do any of you find time to build cues?
C’mon, you’re really kidding here:
fingerprint tonality, ACAD, Intermittent tooth geometry, cuts per minute, elevation, straight slots, relative angle, blade mass, tip speed, engineering solutions, 24,000rpm, 30,000rpm, contours, air gap, Chinese routers, rotational speed, gravity feed follow rest, theoretically, cycle times, vernier controlled adjustable spring loaded tail stock, variable tooth geometry, variable grind concept
I must be in the stone ages with our set-up which we just turn on and cut shafts. And I thought it was just so easy to do. I think I’m going to rip mine apart and make it much more complicated because it's just too easy our way.
Where to start! I have 4 Columbo Routers. Should I throw them away and start fresh? I use cheap router blades and my cuts are as smooth as a baby's tuchas (butt). We're obviously doing something wrong because we don't have any of those words used above in our set-up.
Between setting up these incredible machines with their tonal fingerprints and intermittent tooth geometry plus posting numerous times on AZ - how do any of you find time to build cues?
Are you guys putting me on or something.
C’mon, you’re really kidding here:
fingerprint tonality, ACAD, Intermittent tooth geometry, cuts per minute, elevation, straight slots, relative angle, blade mass, tip speed, engineering solutions, 24,000rpm, 30,000rpm, contours, air gap, Chinese routers, rotational speed, gravity feed follow rest, theoretically, cycle times, vernier controlled adjustable spring loaded tail stock, variable tooth geometry, variable grind concept
I must be in the stone ages with our set-up which we just turn on and cut shafts. And I thought it was just so easy to do. I think I’m going to rip mine apart and make it much more complicated because it's just too easy our way.
Where to start! I have 4 Columbo Routers. Should I throw them away and start fresh? I use cheap router blades and my cuts are as smooth as a baby's tuchas (butt). We're obviously doing something wrong because we don't have any of those words used above in our set-up.
Between setting up these incredible machines with their tonal fingerprints and intermittent tooth geometry plus posting numerous times on AZ - how do any of you find time to build cues?
Joe,
The question should be, at what price and to what ends should one set his standards to continually strive to raise the bar of expectations of what is considered world class.
When one does what other refuse to do concerning baseline standards only then can they appreciate the effect of gains measured in degrees of less than 1%.
I understand your point of view because you don't build cues anymore. I have seen your shafts that you sell and they are very nice indeed. How is it that you can put aside the notion that there is not a much higher standard to be contemplated..
Neil said it right when he mentioned that you can get to a point whereby sanding can only make the contour finish worse. That standard is known to those who never lose site of the goal to always strive to raise that bar and never refuse to seek even the tinniest incremental improvement. Just saying, without that type of critical thinking the past looks exactly like the future. Wouldn't you agree?
Add tool push off to your list of buzz words Joe. Tool push off is something that is real when machining thin tapered wood shafts. If you can counteract that force why not use the force gravity? Makes sense to me. Any one who is familiar with the sounds of a shaft being cut would totally agree that the sound coming off my machine using the rest is a constant sound with no oscillation or bounce. When the shaft is miced up and down and around the cone the dimension numbers don't lie.
JMO,
Rick
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Just some general notes:
We believe table saw tapering machines are yesterday’s technology (prior to CNC and today’s sophisticated machinery) but it still works well for what we are doing. Royce is absolutely correct about speeds.
Also, going from square to round stresses the wood the most. From that point you don't want to go right into tapering as it's still removing too much 'meat' in the center. That's why it's always best to go to tapering from a cone. Most experienced cue makers do it that way. Those who start tapering from round to taper are usually neophytes or know-it-alls but I could be wrong as I only talk to most of the cue makers out there.
From that point it's up to the individual to determine his tapering schedule.
Additionally, who gives a hoot whether the shafts are perfect or not 100% perfect during the tapering process! When you go from square to round an approximation is just fine. There is no need for perfection. When you go from round to a .750 cones same point. When you go from .750 cone to taper, there is no need for perfection as these are just rough cuts to get to final. At around .560 or so is where you need to start perfection and caring about the quality of your cuts. Anything prior is a waste of time. Time is money. And time is too precious to waste on something that doesn’t make a difference nor is needed in the final product.
And don't twist my words as I'm not saying that perfection is not necessary. I'm saying that you don't need it when rough cutting shafts that are way oversized. When you get down to near final then that's where more care is necessary.
We believe table saw tapering machines are yesterday’s technology (prior to CNC and today’s sophisticated machinery) but it still works well for what we are doing. Royce is absolutely correct about speeds.
Also, going from square to round stresses the wood the most. From that point you don't want to go right into tapering as it's still removing too much 'meat' in the center. That's why it's always best to go to tapering from a cone. Most experienced cue makers do it that way. Those who start tapering from round to taper are usually neophytes or know-it-alls but I could be wrong as I only talk to most of the cue makers out there.
From that point it's up to the individual to determine his tapering schedule.
Additionally, who gives a hoot whether the shafts are perfect or not 100% perfect during the tapering process! When you go from square to round an approximation is just fine. There is no need for perfection. When you go from round to a .750 cones same point. When you go from .750 cone to taper, there is no need for perfection as these are just rough cuts to get to final. At around .560 or so is where you need to start perfection and caring about the quality of your cuts. Anything prior is a waste of time. Time is money. And time is too precious to waste on something that doesn’t make a difference nor is needed in the final product.
And don't twist my words as I'm not saying that perfection is not necessary. I'm saying that you don't need it when rough cutting shafts that are way oversized. When you get down to near final then that's where more care is necessary.