Kinister's First Shot

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ok, i am talking about his initial tape on the 60 Minute Workout For 8/9 Ball. this is the first shot on the tape, where he shoots an object ball into the corner pocket and the cue ball rolls forward a couple of inches, thereby replacing the object ball. Kinister says this will do great things for your stroke and game if you can master this shot.

anyway, i tried this a couple of nights ago, couldnt ever really do this. how do you make this shot? any tips?

DCP
 
Just hit it with center ball. Speed is the key, you want the cueball to just roll up and take position of the object ball.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
ok, i am talking about his initial tape on the 60 Minute Workout For 8/9 Ball. this is the first shot on the tape, where he shoots an object ball into the corner pocket and the cue ball rolls forward a couple of inches, thereby replacing the object ball. Kinister says this will do great things for your stroke and game if you can master this shot.

anyway, i tried this a couple of nights ago, couldnt ever really do this. how do you make this shot? any tips?

DCP
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First, get the stop shot down - that's your calibration point. Then, there are two ways to alter the stop shot to achieve Kinister's shot. First, you can slow the shot down a hair (hard to do). Second, on the CB you can hit a hair above where you hit for the stop shot (doesn't require a speed change, and seems to work a little better for me). There are a couple of other things you could do, but those are the two I'd recommend.

There's a reason Kinister uses it - you really have to get to know your stroke to be able to perform this shot.

-djb
 
This is called stun follow. You are hitting it just like a stop shot. Once you have the stop shot down just hit about a half tip above center. This should cause the cue ball roll forward about one rotation and displace the object ball. Line up the shot straight in.
 
Just as Icon of Sin said, you have to hit it center ball. I thought I'd never get it. Once I finally started hitting center It started working. First thing I had to do was get my stroke level at what would be center ball. I use a Zima bottle for about 50 reps into the mouth. Just my .02
 
Sompin2do said:
Just as Icon of Sin said, you have to hit it center ball. I thought I'd never get it. Once I finally started hitting center It started working. First thing I had to do was get my stroke level at what would be center ball. I use a Zima bottle for about 50 reps into the mouth. Just my .02
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I agree that for the purposes of this drill, its important to hit center ball. The point is not just to groove the accuracy of your stroke, but to develop the smooth medium speed stroke, which as we know is the true killer--what Luther Lassiter referred to as "calm speed". Jose Garcia and Buddy Hall are two players that immediately come to mind as perfect examples of this. Watch how they effortlessly move the ball around the table. That's what you're really developing with Kinister's shot #1. I'm not a BK fan or anything, but this shot is indeed the nuts!
 
Practice this shot with the balls close together and move farther away as you master (or at least get a feel for) each distance. This shot becomes very difficult when shooting table length off the rail on fast cloth like when trying to hold for the black while potting a straight in red from behind the baulk colors on an American snooker table. Better hope the table rolls true.
 
I played a safety Monday night that I believe was a close relative of this shot. OB was about 1/2" off the foot rail around the middle diamond. CB was about 2/3 table away and about 1/2 a diamond or so right. I didn't think I could kill it effectively w/the right speed from that distance, but I did (halfball hit I'm guessing) and the CB went a short distance around the left corner pocket and froze behind a ball while the OB ended up right of where the CB started. I elevated somewhat for the draw, not sure if that was necessary or not. Aso, this was on a 8' GC w/new 860 Simonis and a red dot CB. Pretty sure that on a regular bar table w/heavy cue ball that shot can't be made (I'll have to go try though).
 
> I've shot this shot several thousand times,and even talked to Bert about it. He suggested to me to use the 10 ball as the cue ball for a while,and position the stripe so it is parallel to the bed of the table,and as level as possible. What happens on this shot is it leaves your tip with just a hair of backspin,slides,and contacts the object ball just as the slide decays and turns into natural,end over end roll. By this time,it doesn't have enough inertia to keep going,it just takes the place of the object ball and stops. I typically hit this shot maybe 1/16 below center. It is also important that you position your cue ball a little further off the rail than the object ball,on a dead straight line with the center of the pocket drop,and use those hole reinforcements to get the positions of the balls the same. At the speed it takes to accomplish this,I imagine it could get frustrating for those practicing on a tight-ass Diamond. Tommy D.
 
This is a shot that I always use to warm up on. It really tunes in my stroke and helps get a feel for the speed of the table.
 
Tommy-D said:
> I've shot this shot several thousand times,and even talked to Bert about it. He suggested to me to use the 10 ball as the cue ball for a while,and position the stripe so it is parallel to the bed of the table,and as level as possible. What happens on this shot is it leaves your tip with just a hair of backspin,slides,and contacts the object ball just as the slide decays and turns into natural,end over end roll. By this time,it doesn't have enough inertia to keep going,it just takes the place of the object ball and stops. I typically hit this shot maybe 1/16 below center. It is also important that you position your cue ball a little further off the rail than the object ball,on a dead straight line with the center of the pocket drop,and use those hole reinforcements to get the positions of the balls the same. At the speed it takes to accomplish this,I imagine it could get frustrating for those practicing on a tight-ass Diamond. Tommy D.
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During the two and a half years that I owned a room and had a table at my unlimited disposal before and after hours, I hit at least hundred of those everyday to begin my practice sessions, thus making it at least 90,000 times that I played that shot during that period (I figure I took maybe five days a year off). After a few months I was able to do 100 without missing pretty consistently. Its probably the best thing I ever did for my stroke.

Edit: Best of all, they were tight Diamond Pro-Am tables.
 
Neil said:
GREAT replies so far! This shot will really help your stroke. I practice it a little different though, I go for the stop shot and make sure the cueball stops DEAD. No movement whatsoever. Do it from varying distances. I think it is the most important shot in pool. From that you can learn to play position. And when you can consistently stop it dead, you now know how to hit it for a little follow or draw. But as Tommy said, you have to make SURE that you are straight in. I just line it up with my cue stick. Put the tip right in front of the center of the object ball, line up the cue to the center of the pocket, and then just put the cueball under the butt of your cue.
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I think players should definitely start with the stop shot rather than the "roll through". The stop shot is quite a bit easier than moving the cue ball one or two balls forward or backward.

I think it is a very bad idea to practice a lot of identical shots, as some here seem to be doing. I think it is better to vary each attempt. One way is to play the cue ball from farther away. Another is to vary what you are trying to do with the cue ball. For example, from a short distance, try stopping dead, then one ball forward, then one ball back, then two balls forward, then two balls back, etc. In a game you have to be ready for all of these, not just the one-ball-forward shot.

Further, I think it's a bad idea to always play the shot as a straight in. While the ideal run-out consists of nothing but stop shots, that's not the way pool works. Try this instead: put the object ball by the long rail a diamond from the corner pocket and one ball off the cushion. Put the cue ball one diamond further up the long rail and also a ball off the cushion. Now try to stop the cue ball (no forward motion) and with a minimum of side motion. Then the same moving the cue ball one ball forward. Then one ball back, etc. Then with the cue ball farther back.

For those who have trouble seeing the center of the cue ball, use a stripe for the cue ball on the straight-in shots, and put the stripe like a tire. It should not twist when you shoot. This shot gives immediate feedback on stroke errors.
 
Story

I used to shoot that shot 500 times a day. I did it religiously to develop a stroke. I shot it and shot it. It really did do what Bert said it would do.

Years later I went and took lessons from Bert. He had me doing it again (but across the table ala Mighty X)- I told him that I used to do it all the time. He said something to the effect- you were never supposed to stop doing it.

The one handed drill for hours was not a lot of fun but really did do some good. Bert went off the clock and laid down- he could hear my shots and would tell me when it was correct. He was right too.

The 60 minute workout is really powerful stuff.
 
is bert still giving lessons? where is he?
Last i heard he moved to PA and opened a room. Real nice guy and seems like a popular instructor
 
Bert's pool room (Upscale) in PA eventually shut down after about a year and a half. Pretty much went downhill once he stopped coming around. It was bought by another pool hall, shut down again, and then was bought by another pool room (Club Med) and is doing pretty well. I havent seen Bert around since 2005.

I'm sure he still gives lessons. You can probably get ahold of him thru his website- www.bertkinister.com

IM
 
Spade said:
Real nice guy and seems like a popular instructor
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Spade,
If he puts a shot on a tape, and tells the viewer to do it but does not tell him how; that seems to put him a large step below the elite instructors. I would be a bit miffed if I had to spend hours/weeks/years trying to figure out something he could have told me in 10 seconds.
 
I agree that this shot is worth learning. It was very hard for me to resist the urge to do a traditional stop shot-hitting a little below center at medium speed. The key is to always hit dead center and vary the speed of your stroke relative to the distance between the cue ball and object ball. This is a really helpful shot, especially when you are shooting on crappy tables, and you have some distance to the object ball, and you just want to go an inch or two forward. I found that after practicing it, I am much more accurate with a center ball hit and a firm speed than with a low hit and allowing the cueball to "release" just before the object ball. I mean that my speed and distance control is more accurate. By "release", I mean the point at which the backspin wears off and the ball starts rolling forward.
With the Bert Kinister shot, I can play precision short distance follow. It is a great shot to have in your inventory.

Also, while I regard Bob Jewitt as a great authority on the physics of the game, I must respectfully disagree with his statement that repetitive training on one shot is no good. I think it really helps isolate a particular variable. This typically brings that variable to a new level of understanding. I think you should certainly vary your practice. For example, one day is 100 Bert Kinister shot #1's. The next practice is throw a ball out and bring the cueball back to the center of the table (for example). I have found great value in OCCATIONALLY spending a long block of time on a particualar skill. Practice IS DIFFERENT than playing. Duplicating game conditions is not likely to teach you something new. Rather, it solidifies and grooves those things you already know. You can incorporate a restriction to help learn a particualar skill. For example, throw ot the 15 balls and run them in any order, but you have to hit everything high. Or you can't touch a rail, or you can only shoot the furthest ball away that you can see, etc. There are all sorts of things you can do.

Bert Kinister shot # 1 for me gets a thumbs up. Good to have in your inventory.

Kerry
 
I am not sure about a center ball shot on this one for all situations. He shows the shot on a 7' table, and there is like what? 3' between the cue and object ball. Ok maybe center there, but when you stretch it out on a 9' then the center ball hit picks up a forward roll do to the friction of the cloth you almost have to adjust towards the bottom even if its ever so slightly.

BTW:
Yes, that shot is the nuts for locking the cue ball up an a ball when playing safe.
 
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