Kiss Forward And The Question Of Overspin.

mnorwood

mnorwood

Moon
Silver Member
In other threads there has been a debate about overspin. Does it exist or not? Mike page and Dr. Dave have made videos examining overspin. I was reading Byrne's book of pool shots and came accross a shot he calls "kiss forward." Basically its a shot where you shoot the cue ball into a ball frozen on the rail with maximum follow and with a firm stroke. The cue ball bounces off of that ball but retains the original spin. The cue ball then strikes another ball full and the spin brings it back in the original direction.

If follow only exists due to the momentum of the cue ball how do you account for this shot?

I am hoping wiser and more knowledgable posters will set me straight. Here is a link to a video I made about this shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhY3jyHfPVo

Regards,
Marcus
 
mnorwood said:
In other threads there has been a debate about overspin. Does it exist or not? Mike page and Dr. Dave have made videos examining overspin. I was reading Byrne's book of pool shots and came accross a shot he calls "kiss forward." Basically its a shot where you shoot the cue ball into a ball frozen on the rail with maximum follow and with a firm stroke. The cue ball bounces off of that ball but retains the original spin. The cue ball then strikes another ball full and the spin brings it back in the original direction.

If follow only exists due to the momentum of the cue ball how do you account for this shot?

I am hoping wiser and more knowledgable posters will set me straight. Here is a link to a video I made about this shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhY3jyHfPVo

Regards,
Marcus
Click to expand...

Overspin doesn't really exist on the path from CB to OB until the point of collision.

The reason for this myth existing is people not understanding that the higher that you cue without miscueing, the more true a roll that you get taking place initially in its movement. Any amount of sliding friction that takes place with the cue ball will take pace off of it and then they underestimate that effect. They don't understand the physics of it and they can see a change happening and then label it overspin as a confusion from the word topspin... a name derived solely by the ball spinning in a forwards direction when you hit it at the top of the ball. Don't underestimate terminology confusion and faulty thinking.

When the cue ball goes into a rail it has its initial spin direction. Thats why if you want to make some of these kick systems work you better think about what your applying to the cue ball. If you want a mirror image method (or geometric equivalent) bank, spin-wise you want to hit the rail with no spin or stun. If you hit it with top spin, it widen the angle that you make progressively. Backspin just the complete opposite. You can even get crazy effects if you hit a ball then a rail because you do get overspin after collision- perhaps even just stop it dead which is good knowledge for safeties. Think of the amount of times you see someone try to whack a hanger with top spin in order to get the cue ball go down table only to find the ball hitting the rail and stopping dead.. makes the player look so silly... got to love this game...lol

People use these systems but they just don't understand that firstly they have to get the cue ball to work the way shown in the diagram and then use it as a centergistic point to build controlled variations.
 
mnorwood said:
In other threads there has been a debate about overspin. Does it exist or not? Mike page and Dr. Dave have made videos examining overspin. I was reading Byrne's book of pool shots and came accross a shot he calls "kiss forward." Basically its a shot where you shoot the cue ball into a ball frozen on the rail with maximum follow and with a firm stroke. The cue ball bounces off of that ball but retains the original spin. The cue ball then strikes another ball full and the spin brings it back in the original direction.

If follow only exists due to the momentum of the cue ball how do you account for this shot?

I am hoping wiser and more knowledgable posters will set me straight. Here is a link to a video I made about this shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhY3jyHfPVo

Regards,
Marcus
Click to expand...

Follow does not only exist due to the momentum of the cueball. Follow happens through spin and when you hit the ball harder then it spins faster and retains the spin longer. I can't watch YouTube but I think I know the shot you are describing. The reason that the cue ball bounces off the second ball and keeps spinning is because when it hits that ball it still has lots of spin and so it has to go somewhere.

Mike Page did an excellent video demonstrating that so-called "overspin" does not exist. Overspin would be when the cueball would sit in place and spin for a while before taking off down the table. This doesn't happen according to Mike's video demonstration.
 
JB Cases said:
Follow does not only exist due to the momentum of the cueball. Follow happens through spin and when you hit the ball harder then it spins faster and retains the spin longer. I can't watch YouTube but I think I know the shot you are describing. The reason that the cue ball bounces off the second ball and keeps spinning is because when it hits that ball it still has lots of spin and so it has to go somewhere.

Mike Page did an excellent video demonstrating that so-called "overspin" does not exist. Overspin would be when the cueball would sit in place and spin for a while before taking off down the table. This doesn't happen according to Mike's video demonstration.
Click to expand...
So you are saying that forward spin can exist without forward motion, but no overspin?
 
mnorwood said:
...If follow only exists due to the momentum of the cue ball how do you account for this shot?
Click to expand...
Follow is due to topspin, not momentum. When the cueball strikes another ball full, it essentially comes to a complete stop. If it has topspin, it will then follow forward. This is due to the spin causing the bottom of the ball to rub against the cloth, which produces friction (force), and this force accelerates it forward. At the same time, the friction reduces its rate of spin. Eventually the two (speed and spin) become synchronized in such a way that the friction ceases, because the bottom of the ball is now essentially stationary with respect to the cloth. Up until roll, the cueball had overspin. Loosely speaking, it was spinning faster than it was moving.

On way to produce topspin is to hit centerball, say, and let cloth friction do the job. In this sense, the topspin is due to the ball's forward speed (momentum). But it's not the momentum that directly causes follow; it's the topspin which developed from friction, and then became overspin after the collision.

Another way to produce immediate overspin (right off the tip), possibly, is to hit high enough on the cueball so that you're generating more spin than speed. This can be done with sidespin, apparently, but seems to be tougher, or maybe impossible with topspin. That's what Mike Page's and Dr. Dave's videos were about, though with slightly different conclusions. Your shot didn't require overspin produced this way.

Hope that helps some. Nice shot, by the way!

Jim
 
I like the thumbs up at 1:09. :smile:

Seriously, this is an interesting question you raise mnorwood.
 
mnorwood said:
So you are saying that forward spin can exist without forward motion, but no overspin?
Click to expand...

If there is no impediment then spin always produces motion - how much motion depends on the surface the object is on and how the spin is applied.

On a pool table where there is a good amount of friction between the ball and the table cloth and where the only way to get a ball spinning is to hit it off center there is no way to have forward spin without forward motion.

Now if you mean can a ball bounce backwards after contact and then go forward, yes it can but it cannot hit an object ball and back up in contact with the table and then reverse direction and move forward. It can contact the object ball and leave the table bed as it's spinning forward and when it lands back on the table the spin will kick in and propel it forward.

Of you can have spin without forward motion - anytime you can have an object that can spin in place with no friction. A good example is a magnetic top which works by spinning a top ad placing it in between two magnets and it will float and spin at the same time. Turn off the magnets and it will fall to the surface and move in the direction of the spin. If the surface is ice then it may spin in place until it gains traction.

Pool tables aren't ice and people can't make a ball spin in place with topspin which would be "overspin" Even on ice you can't hit a ball with top spin and keep it in place.

The only way you can make a ball reverse direction with topspin is when you do a masse shot where the ball goes up table and back when the spin overcomes the momentum. Theoretically I would think that there as a millisedon there where the ball is not moving but is still spinning as it changes direction. That's still not "overspin" (is that even really a word?) but rather normal physics.
 
I will pay $100 to the first person who produces a video of them hitting a cueball with a normal level cue above the equator - no gimmicks - that shows the cueball spinning in place before traveling down the table there must be at least ONE FULL ROTATION of the cueball in place before it moves forward.

And the video must be placed on a non-banned in China site so I can see it.

I say it cannot be done by a human being and I will pay if someone can prove it otherwise.
 
JB Cases said:
If there is no impediment then spin always produces motion - how much motion depends on the surface the object is on and how the spin is applied.

On a pool table where there is a good amount of friction between the ball and the table cloth and where the only way to get a ball spinning is to hit it off center there is no way to have forward spin without forward motion.

Now if you mean can a ball bounce backwards after contact and then go forward, yes it can but it cannot hit an object ball and back up in contact with the table and then reverse direction and move forward. It can contact the object ball and leave the table bed as it's spinning forward and when it lands back on the table the spin will kick in and propel it forward.

Of you can have spin without forward motion - anytime you can have an object that can spin in place with no friction. A good example is a magnetic top which works by spinning a top ad placing it in between two magnets and it will float and spin at the same time. Turn off the magnets and it will fall to the surface and move in the direction of the spin. If the surface is ice then it may spin in place until it gains traction.

Pool tables aren't ice and people can't make a ball spin in place with topspin which would be "overspin" Even on ice you can't hit a ball with top spin and keep it in place.

The only way you can make a ball reverse direction with topspin is when you do a masse shot where the ball goes up table and back when the spin overcomes the momentum. Theoretically I would think that there as a millisedon there where the ball is not moving but is still spinning as it changes direction. That's still not "overspin" (is that even really a word?) but rather normal physics.
Click to expand...

If you could watch the video I think it would be helpful. The cue ball leaves the first ball but is still spinning forward then hits the second ball before the spin makes it move back in the other direction.
 
I'm just going to thro this out there.

I don't believe that video truly shows 'force' follow in a definitive manner.

I do believe forward spin beyond that of forward roll can be achived but it's not of amounts that most people think and only at short distances.
 
JB Cases said:
If there is no impediment then spin always produces motion - how much motion depends on the surface the object is on and how the spin is applied.

On a pool table where there is a good amount of friction between the ball and the table cloth and where the only way to get a ball spinning is to hit it off center there is no way to have forward spin without forward motion.

Now if you mean can a ball bounce backwards after contact and then go forward, yes it can but it cannot hit an object ball and back up in contact with the table and then reverse direction and move forward. It can contact the object ball and leave the table bed as it's spinning forward and when it lands back on the table the spin will kick in and propel it forward.

Of you can have spin without forward motion - anytime you can have an object that can spin in place with no friction. A good example is a magnetic top which works by spinning a top ad placing it in between two magnets and it will float and spin at the same time. Turn off the magnets and it will fall to the surface and move in the direction of the spin. If the surface is ice then it may spin in place until it gains traction.

Pool tables aren't ice and people can't make a ball spin in place with topspin which would be "overspin" Even on ice you can't hit a ball with top spin and keep it in place.

The only way you can make a ball reverse direction with topspin is when you do a masse shot where the ball goes up table and back when the spin overcomes the momentum. Theoretically I would think that there as a millisedon there where the ball is not moving but is still spinning as it changes direction. That's still not "overspin" (is that even really a word?) but rather normal physics.
Click to expand...



I'm not sure if I understand all your trying to say but you can surely 'forward masse' a cue ball where it will stay in place and then zip forward. Actually , it will usually deflect backwards and then take off.
 
Marcus,

FYI, clear demonstrations of overspin, with super slow motion footage, can be found here:


Specifically, look at the clip starting at 1:10. The ball comes to a complete stop while practically all of the topspin remains, resulting in very clear overspin. It most certainly exists. The camera doesn't lie.

For more info, see:


Regards,
Dave

mnorwood said:
In other threads there has been a debate about overspin. Does it exist or not? Mike page and Dr. Dave have made videos examining overspin. I was reading Byrne's book of pool shots and came accross a shot he calls "kiss forward." Basically its a shot where you shoot the cue ball into a ball frozen on the rail with maximum follow and with a firm stroke. The cue ball bounces off of that ball but retains the original spin. The cue ball then strikes another ball full and the spin brings it back in the original direction.

If follow only exists due to the momentum of the cue ball how do you account for this shot?

I am hoping wiser and more knowledgable posters will set me straight. Here is a link to a video I made about this shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhY3jyHfPVo

Regards,
Marcus
Click to expand...
 
dr_dave said:
Marcus,

FYI, clear demonstrations of overspin, with super slow motion footage, can be found here:


Specifically, look at the clip starting at 1:10. The ball comes to a complete stop while practically all of the topspin remains, resulting in very clear overspin. It most certainly exists. The camera doesn't lie.

For more info, see:


Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

With the highest respect, Dave, I don't think you and Mike Page are defining "overspin" the same way. Mike was looking at the moment of cueball contact with the stick. You are talking about at the moment of contact between the CB and the OB.

Mike's (ingenious IMO) experiment demonstrates that at the moment of (and just after) contact between the cue tip and the CB there is no overspin. The CB is not spinning faster than - or inconsistantly with - its forward motion on the table. In other words, the CB is not spinning so fast that the bottom of the CB is slipping past the cloth like Fred Flinstone's feet trying to run faster than the pavement will allow. Even with top spin near the miscue limit, the CB surface in contact with the table "geared" with the table surface.

I also think there are two momentums in play here: linear and angular.
 
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Shaft said:
With the highest respect, Dave, I don't think you and Mike Page are defining "overspin" the same way. Mike was looking at the moment of cueball contact with the stick.
Click to expand...
Actually, in the first part of my video (HSV B.26 - overspin with a follow shot), I'm looking at the same same thing as Mike (NV B.36 - Mike Page's overspin). "Overspin" is a general term referring to the CB having more topspin than the forward roll amount. This term can be applied to the CB at any time (just after tip contact, during a masse shot, after collision with an OB, etc., IMO).

Shaft said:
Mike's (ingenious IMO) experiment demonstrates that at the moment of (and just after) contact between the cue tip and the CB there is no overspin.
Click to expand...
Agreed ... Mike's method is ingenious (and it doesn't require a high-speed camera). Actually, there can be a small amount of overspin just after contact with the tip (see HSV B.26 - overspin with a follow shot), but it is too small to be of practical value.

Shaft said:
The CB is not spinning faster than - or inconsistantly with - its forward motion on the table. In other words, the CB is not spinning so fast that the bottom of the CB is slipping past the cloth like Fred Flinstone trying to run faster than the pavement will allow.
Click to expand...
Good description.

Shaft said:
No matter how much top spin Mike put on the cueball, the CB surface "geared" with the cloth.
Click to expand...
Check out my video (HSV B.26 - overspin with a follow shot). I was able to achieve a slight amount of overspin off the tip.

Shaft said:
I also think there are two momentums in play here: linear and angular
Click to expand...
Most definitely.

Regards,
Dave
 
RRfireblade said:
I'm just going to thro this out there.

I don't believe that video truly shows 'force' follow in a definitive manner.

I do believe forward spin beyond that of forward roll can be achived but it's not of amounts that most people think and only at short distances.
Click to expand...

Short distance is the key here. This shot works because the overspin is still in effect. Now try the same angle shot but moving the cue ball back about 4 diamonds(4 ft). When the cue ball travels further the friction catches up to the spin and becomes forward roll.

Quote from JB Cases:
I will pay $100 to the first person who produces a video of them hitting a cueball with a normal level cue above the equator - no gimmicks - that shows the cueball spinning in place before traveling down the table there must be at least ONE FULL ROTATION of the cueball in place before it moves forward.

I agree that one full rotation is impossible, due to the fact that cloth is too much friction. On ice it might work, but there is too much friction on a pool table to do a full rotation. However, I do beleive a cue ball can spin(topspin) faster for a very short distance than it is traveling forward.
 
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