Lagging: Just a tournament thing?

Cuebacca

Cuebacca

________
Silver Member
I noticed that when people match up to gamble, they usually flip a coin to decide the first break, rather than lag. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Lagging only seems common in tournaments, but even when a gambler plays in a tournament, he seems to want to flip.

I would think that the lag would be the preferred choice among "good" players because it involves skill rather than luck.

Is flipping more fun that lagging? Is it "cooler"? LOL. What's the deal? :)

Is this just my imagination, or is lagging just a "tournament player" thing? :confused:
 
I have one league that I play on that lags. The break is fairly important in a race to 2 :D .

I gambled once with a guy that wanted to lag for the break, he was terrible at it so maybe he was trying to hide his speed :rolleyes: .
 
Cuebacca said:
Is this just my imagination, or is lagging just a "tournament player" thing? :confused:
Click to expand...

We begin our APA league matches by determining who breaks first by lagging for the break.

I don't like the idea of flipping a coin to determine anything if a skillful means is available to do so. I have been told and have noticed after being told that if "heads" is in the up position prior to being flipped, then "heads" is gonna win about 80% of the time. I have noticed that this somewhat holds true in the instances where I have been watching for it. Whenever I flip a coin, I try not to let the person calling the toss see what is in the up position for this reason.

Maniac
 
jongreve said:
flipping a coin takes less effort
Click to expand...

Are players really truely that lazy? Man what is this world coming too. People don't want to work anymore these days and now they don't even want to lag for the opening break.

When gambling sets of 9 ball or possibly 8 ball. I think that it is viewed from more of a standpoint that if they lose the flip they have the attitude that they will still get plenty of chances to break.

On the other hand I can't ever remember seeing anyone flip for the break playing straight pool. Then again straight pool isn't played as often as it should be. It is a wonderful game.

Regardless of what game I am playing whether it be gambling or tournament I always do whatever I can to try to lag for the break.
 
I have a hunch that quite often the person actually flipping the coin is in a bit of a hurry to get the game started...Once the coin flip is done the game and bet is "on"....so to speak

Doing a lag you have to wait for the guy to get over there and set up the ball and so on and so forth...and it gives him time to re-think if he actually wants to take this game.

That is probably also why when a bet is over one guy seems to immediatly have a coin in his hand and is ready to flip for start of the next bet.....;)
 
we lag for league play but when it comes to tournaments its always a coin for some reason unless neither of us have a coin then we will lag. I could really care less what we do.
 
One place I play tournaments the rules say Lag for Break, most player ask for a Coin Flip, I do not care either way, but Lagging does require skill.
 
I lag for league, for tournaments, and for gambling.

Flipping a coin = no skill.
 
Maniac said:
We begin our APA league matches by determining who breaks first by lagging for the break.

I don't like the idea of flipping a coin to determine anything if a skillful means is available to do so. I have been told and have noticed after being told that if "heads" is in the up position prior to being flipped, then "heads" is gonna win about 80% of the time. I have noticed that this somewhat holds true in the instances where I have been watching for it. Whenever I flip a coin, I try not to let the person calling the toss see what is in the up position for this reason.

Maniac
Click to expand...

I'll flip you a hundred quarters at however much you want per flip.

You give me 6 to 5 on the money.

You can start with heads every time.

You can flip the coin every time, you just gotta make the coin flip over at least 6-7 times.

If the odds are truly 80% for heads, then your expected win on this if we bet $100 a flip is: 80 heads x $100 per =$8000 for heads flips...20 x $120 per = -$2400 for tails flips... You should win $5600.00.

Even if you only catch 55% heads, you win $5500 and lose $5400, for a $100 win.

I am expecting you to contact me make arrangements. You should be stealing at 80%.

Russ
 
BRKNRUN said:
I have a hunch that quite often the person actually flipping the coin is in a bit of a hurry to get the game started...Once the coin flip is done the game and bet is "on"....so to speak

Doing a lag you have to wait for the guy to get over there and set up the ball and so on and so forth...and it gives him time to re-think if he actually wants to take this game.

That is probably also why when a bet is over one guy seems to immediatly have a coin in his hand and is ready to flip for start of the next bet.....;)
Click to expand...

I buy this. Good point. :)
 
Russ Chewning said:
I'll flip you a hundred quarters at however much you want per flip.

You give me 6 to 5 on the money.

You can start with heads every time.

You can flip the coin every time, you just gotta make the coin flip over at least 6-7 times.

If the odds are truly 80% for heads, then your expected win on this if we bet $100 a flip is: 80 heads x $100 per =$8000 for heads flips...20 x $120 per = -$2400 for tails flips... You should win $5600.00.

Even if you only catch 55% heads, you win $5500 and lose $5400, for a $100 win.

I am expecting you to contact me make arrangements. You should be stealing at 80%.

Russ
Click to expand...

You should be careful about allowing the opponent to flip. Just as is true with knife throwers, it is entirely possible, with practice, to control the number of rotations over a given distance.

You do get some bouncing with coin tosses that you don't get with knife throwing and of course, 80% is WAY too large of an objective. But I know people who can flip for a given side of a coin WAY more than 50% of the time.

In addition, consider a similar bet. What odds would require if I were to bet you that you cannot flip one side exactly 50 times out of 100 chances?

The probabilities are 1 in 2^100 so, according to the odds there is an extreme liklihood of a 50/50 split...BUT...

There is a problem. Quote me the odds on the money and I'll respond with what the problem is.

(-:

Jim
 
Cuebacca said:
I noticed that when people match up to gamble, they usually flip a coin to decide the first break, rather than lag. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Lagging only seems common in tournaments, but even when a gambler plays in a tournament, he seems to want to flip.

I would think that the lag would be the preferred choice among "good" players because it involves skill rather than luck.

Is flipping more fun that lagging? Is it "cooler"? LOL. What's the deal? :)

Is this just my imagination, or is lagging just a "tournament player" thing? :confused:
Click to expand...
I play in a tournament on Sunday's at Kolby's. Everyone flips for the break except for one guy. I never really asked him why he liked to lag instead of flip a coin but I did over hear him one day. He said and I quote "I like to lag because at least then I have a 50/50 chance of winning". Nuff said. :D:D:D

BVal
 
Brady...I lag ALL the time, because it is a skill shot, and since I practice it, I'm going to win the lag 80+% of the time. Most people do not practice a lag...a big mistake imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
I can't remember the last time I lagged for the break.

I do remember a few months ago going $5 per lag. Apparently I should stick to the coin flip.
 
av84fun said:
You should be careful about allowing the opponent to flip. Just as is true with knife throwers, it is entirely possible, with practice, to control the number of rotations over a given distance.

You do get some bouncing with coin tosses that you don't get with knife throwing and of course, 80% is WAY too large of an objective. But I know people who can flip for a given side of a coin WAY more than 50% of the time.

In addition, consider a similar bet. What odds would require if I were to bet you that you cannot flip one side exactly 50 times out of 100 chances?

The probabilities are 1 in 2^100 so, according to the odds there is an extreme liklihood of a 50/50 split...BUT...

There is a problem. Quote me the odds on the money and I'll respond with what the problem is.

(-:

Jim
Click to expand...

Oh, alright. I'll tell ya what the problem is anyway.

In betting on the exact probabilities, there are 3 potential outcomes and 2 are unfavorable.

1. The coins fall 50/50 so you win.

2. The distribution goes less than the odds and you lose.

3. The distribution goes greater than the odds and you lose.

But, wait...there's more.

Even if the distribution is perfect, you can't get to 100 tosses without completing 99 and at 99 even if the distribution is falling perfectly the "score" will be H45-T44 (assuming the player is calling heads).

So, on the last toss, the coin doesn't care what the last 99 outcomes were. All it knows is that there is a head and a tail and the odds are 50/50 on the last toss.

Therefore, the odds can NEVER be better than even money even if the number of coins tossed is 1 million because it will ALWAYS come down to that last coin toss.

In any event, since there are 3 possible outcomes...each of which carries a 1 in 2 probability,/...even money... your odds of success are 1 in 3.

But wait...it gets worse...MUCH worse.

The standard deviation for 100 coin tosses is +/-5. So, out of 11 outcomes, only 1 wins the bet

But it gets worse. 1 standard deviation is expected only about 68% of the time so now you're talking about roughly a 15-1 shot of ending up with a 50/50 distribution.

So, you can lay 10-1 odds all day against that outcome....I THINK!

It has been a LONG time since I've studied binominal probabilities!

But try it with 20 tosses which is a bet you can easily make in the pool hall. The standard deviation would be +/-1 so there are 3 likely outcomes...only 1 of which is a winner for the mark...but even then, he only has a 68% chance that the deviation will be as small as +/-1.

In any event you can lay 2-1 odds all night and win over time.

(-:
 
Cuebacca said:
I noticed that when people match up to gamble, they usually flip a coin to decide the first break, rather than lag. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Lagging only seems common in tournaments, but even when a gambler plays in a tournament, he seems to want to flip.

I would think that the lag would be the preferred choice among "good" players because it involves skill rather than luck.

Is flipping more fun that lagging? Is it "cooler"? LOL. What's the deal? :)

Is this just my imagination, or is lagging just a "tournament player" thing? :confused:
Click to expand...
I like to lag always as i think it is old school...:)
 
av84fun said:
The standard deviation for 100 coin tosses is +/-5. So, out of 11 outcomes, only 1 wins the bet

But it gets worse. 1 standard deviation is expected only about 68% of the time so now you're talking about roughly a 15-1 shot of ending up with a 50/50 distribution.

So, you can lay 10-1 odds all day against that outcome....I THINK!

It has been a LONG time since I've studied binominal probabilities!

But try it with 20 tosses which is a bet you can easily make in the pool hall. The standard deviation would be +/-1 so there are 3 likely outcomes...only 1 of which is a winner for the mark...but even then, he only has a 68% chance that the deviation will be as small as +/-1.

In any event you can lay 2-1 odds all night and win over time.

(-:
Click to expand...



This is pretty cool...

http://nlvm.usu.edu/en/nav/frames_asid_305_g_3_t_5.html
 
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