League players/captains input

[Scott Lee]

Sorry, but what I, and others (like CreeDo) said is true. Playing amateur league pool with the expectation of making money is unrealistic, at best. If you cannot enjoy the competition and friendship, without the stigma of the money, then you're doing it for the wrong reason, imo. Just to clarify, I've been on both sides of the issue...as a player, captain, and league operator. I'm not arguing the issue of how to split paybacks.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, since ive been outed as a Whiney pool player , i feel much more at home here. Best regards , tronpocket:thumbup:

well people see things my way, not my way, kinda my way , just like i figured , thanks for the imput , mondays are so boring .

 

[CreeDo]

it's not fair to have a team of half serious players and half "socializers". You want to socialize at a cost to me? ...dont think so.

Sorry man, I gotta be blunt - that sounds like a pretty self-centered point of view.
At least you're kind of aware of it and asking, and I respect that.

But looking at the quote above,
you're talking like you actually consider the prize money YOURS.
It isn't even in your hands yet and you're talking like the 'socializers' are stealing it out of your wallet.

It's not yours, it's the team's money, and the socializers never took it from anyone...
it was GIVEN to them. What do you expect them to do, give it back and say
"hand this to Tron, he draws his rock better than I do. I don't deserve it."?

Hell no, the other players don't think like that and you shouldn't either.

It's not about win percentage, it's about everyone showing up and putting in effort.
If your team is anything like mine you need a 1 or 2 so that you can play as a 9, right?
So even if they win 40% and you win 90%, without them, you're off the team.
So, I'd say they deserve an equal cut because they're just as necessary for you to play.

I just want to enjoy some time out, play some pool, competitively, and not have to pay for it in the long run, I'm gambling on free fun time. I've long understood that at best, for me and anyone else, league play isn't a good "investment " but it shouldn't be a net loss (for me) even when we win first or 2nd place.

I would love to be able to do things I enjoy without having to pay for it, but I don't EXPECT it.

Honestly I think you (like a lot of people) are worried too much about OPM -
other people's money. It's not about "this is taking too much toll on my wallet"
or "there are lots of cool things I could buy if my cut were larger"...
It's about "I think this is unfair so I want to punish people who are getting paid just as much
even though they're not half as serious about pool as I am."

In other words, it's about ego.

I think you'll be happier if you can find some way to let that shit go
and just treat this as a fun and not-very-expensive night out at the pool hall.

 

[ShanksMcShankly]

I captain a bar league team of young C to B- players that are inexperienced but hungry to play competitively. I know that we don't have a chance to get first or second but if we're lucky we might pull a fourth and I told them all when I formed the team. The league can pay pretty well but 2 very strong teams joined this session and we still only have 7 teams so I don't expect a huge payout. In any case I wanted our distribution schedule to be fair and reward good play. We have a 6 man roster and I rotate out based on performance and availability.

The structure that I formed with my team and have total agreement for is that all payouts are calculated from your win/loss record. I wanted to have some motivation to score wins and punish losses. This league only counts wins and losses, we don't have to deal with point systems at all. The league fees from each player goes towards the league prize pool and for every loss the player pays a small penalty into the team prize pool. At the end of the season any league prize money will join the team prize pool then will be divided. So based on the total number of wins for the team (100%) you get your calculated percentage, ie if player A has 25 of our total 100 wins, then player A gets 25% of our total prize pool.

That was the most fair and rewarding way I could figure out and the entire team seems to agree for now... I didn't want to be seen like I was trying to tilt the balance of money my way and I truly do want to see these guys play better score wins. I feel like this system works well to deal with the factors of attendance and performance.

I very well may be wrong... IDK??? you tell me :duck:

 

[cyork2]

Didn't take time to read the responses but YES - I ran my teams exactly the way you describe. If it is a cash pay out league then at the end of the season I look at how many weeks each person played and pro-rate the pay outs based on how many weeks you played (which is the same thing as basing it on how much you paid in since weekly dues are the same). Once or twice I had to make note to adjust for a player playing twice or stepping in for someone at the last minute (in leagues where they didn't keep records for you and these changes screwed up my record keeping).

As long as everyone knows the story going in, there are never any meaningful complaints on the back end. When someone does complain it doesn't go far because you say - yeah but that guy paid in more than twice what you did - and the story ends.

I have never used wins / losses for payouts - between match up differences and such this just sounds like a problem waiting to happen.

I've only ever played on teams where I was the captain or where I helped set the rules so I've never been a part of any other way to split the money.

Craig

 

[krupa]

I make sure my team gets equal playing time and wouldn't pay out evenly if one guy only had a match or two (if the others had 7+ matches).

However, the OP comes off as very arrogant and presumably he didn't make any kind of agreement when signing on as a "gun for hire." So...

here's a straw... suck it up.

 

[Maniac]

This is just me, but when I throw money out to a league, I consider that money GONE, just as if I had "loaned" it to my 28 year-old son (I'll never see it again )!!!

Maniac (CreeDo got it right)

 

[justadub]

The teams I play on are just that, TEAMs.

I captain one, co-captain the other.

We do our best to make sure everyone plays as close to equally as possible, given skill level limitations and all. Everyone knows that during the session, we will do our best to keep everyone involved, and that when it comes to playoffs, we go with the strongest lineups possible.

On our teams, most folks want to play as much as possible, so it isn't an issue with us.

It's a team effort, and we split things equally amongst the team.

 

[BryanB]

Definitely not an even money split among all players unless everyone plays the same amount of games. How fair is it if a guy plays 4 weeks and gets the same as the guy that paid to plays all 16 weeks?
I've played on many pool and bowling leagues and the money is always paid by by the amount of weeks someone plays. If someone that plays 4 weeks is complaining about not getting the same as everyone else they can find another team!

 

[KRJ]

Sorry, but what I, and others (like CreeDo) said is true. Playing amateur league pool with the expectation of making money is unrealistic, at best. If you cannot enjoy the competition and friendship, without the stigma of the money, then you're doing it for the wrong reason, imo. Just to clarify, I've been on both sides of the issue...as a player, captain, and league operator. I'm not arguing the issue of how to split paybacks.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, who is trying to make money.... our league fee is $15 per man, per week. If I play 16 weeks $240.... the guy that plays 5 weeks $75. We get back $1200 bucks back for the 6 guys on the 5 man team, and I'm gonna give the guy who showed up 5 times and only paid $75, is gonna get $200 back?? He triples his investment, and I lose $40... yep, that seems fair ? And just to be clear, nobody on my team is in need of the money, but no reason not to be fair because everyone is doing well....

Like you said, we are NOT in this for the money, thus when I hand him his very light share he has the same attitude....he got his cut, and never a complaint.

When amongst friends, why not be fair.. and fair is based on what was paid in....Would anyone take offense of not getting a FULL share if you were playing on a team but only showed 1/3 of the time ??

 

[KRJ]

This is just me, but when I throw money out to a league, I consider that money GONE, just as if I had "loaned" it to my 28 year-old son (I'll never see it again )!!!

Maniac (CreeDo got it right)

Sounds like you play APA I kid, I kid...

 

[Maniac]

Sounds like you play APA I kid, I kid...

No, you are absolutely correct. I DID play APA. But I never cared about the fact that I was throwing $7 per match at my team captain every week that I played. IMO, the match itself was worth the $7. I didn't play for any other reason than to get out of the house (from in front of the television), meet new friends, throw a couple of mixed drinks back, and enjoy the night. The issue of money was never an issue with me from the word GO. As far as I'm concerned, they (my other teammates) could have done anything they'd have wanted to with any monies received at sessions end. Wouldn't have made me any difference. What eventually got me to quit playing in APA leagues was the constant drama and handicap manipulations.

Maniac

 

[lorider]

the traveling money league i used to captain i divided the weekly team fee by how many players we had. every player paid the same amount every week whether they played or not. if i had a player not show up one week i paid his portion and got my money back the following week. if some one failed to pay me they did not play until they paid. after 2 weeks they have not paid they were off the team and then every one paid the new fee for one less player.

one other thing with that team. the fees did not come to an even dollar amount so we all added 1.50 every week that went in the quarter bag. every player took quarters out of the bag when their turn to pay for their rack. that way when an 8 played an 8-7 match he did not have to spend 9.00 in quarters for his match vs a player who spent .75 to go 0-2. if the quarter bag got low every one pitched in a couple dollars to replenish it.

under that system every one paid the same amount for the entire session no matter how many racks they played and every one received the same amount at the end of the session. i only had one issue with a player in 2 years with those rules.

now my apa team i captain now is a different story . if you play you pay , if you dont play you dont pay . no one has had an issue with that at all. we are going to vegas next week and every thing is split evenly with every player. from our 2 who hardly ever played to our 8 " who without him we never would have qualified in the 1st place". no one on the team has an issue with it.

 

[CreeDo]

No, you are absolutely correct. I DID play APA. But I never cared about the fact that I was throwing $7 per match at my team captain every week that I played. IMO, the match itself was worth the $7.

Exactly... in a typical match, I will play about 13 racks of 9b, but 15-16 is not unheard of.
To play that much pool for $11 (in my case) is a steal and there's tons of free time on the practice
tables too. Strictly from a financial standpoint, I'm already coming out ahead.

 

[Thepip]

I think you have a very valid point and I like that you did not bash anyone or any one league. I have been both captain co captain and a player. The benefit is always to the player because his/hers concern is only to play. Most of the time they either don't want to or don't know how to score and if there is a forfeits or a person that forgot to pay it always falls on the captain or co-captain to get things done. Some people have been players for years because they just don't want the responsibility to run or make a judgment call when needed. The Player is usually a lower ranked player and in a 15 week session will play at most 6 times while the higher ranked player might just have to play all 15 matches and runs the team. The Player is also the one that shows up on time but bales right after his game ends. The disadvantage is always to the captain and the higher ranked players on the team. They are the one collecting the money making sure the score sheet is correct staying till midnight every week. I think a lot of what you are saying is not just about the money and I agree the plays that pay and play more should get more but it's more about the system APA/BCA and how it works. If you win as a team you should split the money on the team but also split the responsibility all should score and split funds during a forfeit and my biggest concern as a team you all start together and end together.

 

[SeanChamp]

My home bar cash league pays $9.50/win to the team. Each player pays $5 to play, 5 players/night. $.50 goes for top in each skill level per half. Last year my team had 63 wins, I had 21 of them. I paid $150 and took like $85 at the end. I'm not upset, it's league... Fun, beer, and comraderie. When I captained a team before, I paid you $5 for every win, so you atleast got your money back for winning, the rest was split between all. I had a player that didn't like this cause he won every time he showed up. But like I told him, the guy who drops his plans for the evening and comes and plays cause you couldn't deserves a little more for his personal sacrifice.

 

[huntergate]

I just started the summer session in a NAPA league. It cost $8.00 to play each week. For every win a player has during the session he gets $7.25 back. Since i'm new to the league it remains to be seen how it works out. The LO has been doing this for 2-3 years and the league is growing.

 

[JuicyGirl]

I understand what you mean. As for my team the hubs and I are the capt's and we decided to have the team chose within our private Facebook group page what they wanted to do with the funds. Everyone expressed their desires and the group took a vote on how to proceed. We placed 2nd in the 2013 spring session with a prize of $463. Our team decided to use the money to pay for our matches during the summer (no one received any hard cash). At the end of the summer session we will have $43 left, the hubs and I plan on treating the team with drinks for everyone and commiserate over the dead last finish we seem to working on.

... And so basically we essentially dodged the issue

Cheers to the fall session.
Regards,
Loren

 

[Tronpocket]

Interesting , Being my first thread, I had knowingly and voluntarily put myself into the position of the whiney , egotistical, selfish pool player who doesnt like the way the teams ive been on pay their players, when i could have just started the thread with the simple question,
" does your team league have equal, performance based or pro rated payout for prize monies won by said team?".
I know it would have saved me from being , well, you know, open for personal critisism, and or assumptions,and gotten more responses based on peoples subjective opinions of the topic and not there opinion of me on the topic in my scenario...but thats ok . One poster actually saw that and commended me on being honest .
Truthfully, Im not offended by any words anyone could post about what they think of me , not that anyone had tried intentionally.......yet.
Even the answers we get in these threads show somthing about us as a whole, pool players do it for a 1000 different reasons , no 2 do it alike, like politics we all have our thoughts on any topic you can conceive.
Im glad i could bring a relevent, discusable topic to a forum full of redundancy and (mostly)assorted nonsense , its been fun and lesson learned.
Thanks you all for your imput,
" i yams what i yams "( popeye), :wink:

 

[Mikey Town]

Interesting , Being my first thread, I had knowingly and voluntarily put myself into the position of the whiney , egotistical, selfish pool player who doesnt like the way the teams ive been on pay their players, when i could have just started the thread with the simple question,
" does your team league have equal, performance based or pro rated payout for prize monies won by said team?".
I know it would have saved me from being , well, you know, open for personal critisism, and or assumptions,and gotten more responses based on peoples subjective opinions of the topic and not there opinion of me on the topic in my scenario...but thats ok . One poster actually saw that and commended me on being honest .
Truthfully, Im not offended by any words anyone could post about what they think of me , not that anyone had tried intentionally.......yet.
Even the answers we get in these threads show somthing about us as a whole, pool players do it for a 1000 different reasons , no 2 do it alike, like politics we all have our thoughts on any topic you can conceive.
Im glad i could bring a relevent, discusable topic to a forum full of redundancy and (mostly)assorted nonsense , its been fun and lesson learned.
Thanks you all for your imput,
" i yams what i yams "( popeye), :wink:

Tronpocket,

I just wanted to say that you seem to have a great perspective on things... It would be easy to let a few of those responses get to you. You are also very well written. Please post more on this forum. Well written members, with their heads in the right place, is something that every forum could use more of. Thank you for that.

As for the paying of players... my current BCA team (that I do not captain) pays per point. At the end of the league we take the money that the team gets and divide it by the number of points that the team had. This gives you a dollar figure per point. Then you multiply that figure by the number of points that each player had in order to figure out the player payouts.

Some might think that the "pay for performance" method isn't what it should all be about... heck, I know that I don't think that it's the best way to go about it, but the other guys on the team think that it's good, and that's all that matters to me. I'm not there for the money anyway, so I could care less how much goes back into my pocket at the end. $10 per week to meet up, play pool and have a drink with some good friends? That's a bargain... and more entertaining than any movie I could see for that same $10.