League players/captains input

Tronpocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Starting this thread to see if any of our team "league" players have the same issue with somthing that has always bothered me, a little, and the (one of) the reasons why i (may) never want to play in one again.
NOTE! (this will not turn into a league bashing thread , its another kind of issue , so please keep it that way.) :nono:

Ok,ive been on my fair share of teams, apa,bca, money leagues ect ect..... Ive never actually started my own team but have been "recruited" by friends or local house teams to be , more less, an anchor man / advisor / time out specialist. or just a solid player when needed.
That means I usually played every week of the session. And my S.L. isnt an issue since i play generaly at the highest S.L you can have in any particular league and asking me to throw a match or sandbag isnt going to work, 1 . i wont do it, 2. you cant make me 3. i would have to about lose every match for a session to go down in S.L. and id be right back up within a week or two after that anyway..
Im there to win matches and give our team a chance to win overall. Ive only done it for the fun and that it isnt any personal inconvenience to me and that at the least , its a break even proposition and i get some time out during a weeknight.
So the outcomes of these sessions usually remain the same.

scenario 1., If im recruited to a 8 man/wman apa "dream team" where "we go to vegas every year!" , i play ever week, have a +80-90 % w/l ratio (cant win em all), pay my dues and do my job.. My team however , in there attempt to play the "numbers game" usually come up short . DreamTeams seem to fall flat of there expectations when the "tron" factor is equated :confused:. Nothing i can do , im not the captain and i dont step on toes to be one, i cant make the rest of team shoot better or worse, its just the way it is.
Yes,not every team gets to go to vegas , que sara sara, had fun guys and i dont think ill be playing next session.
But we do finish close to the top , team gets some $ ...... great.

Scenario 2, im on a money league team that consistently finishes 1 or 2 every session. Play almost every week even tho im not the stand out best player on the team overall but hold my own and maintain a positive w/l record thruout the session , we dont get to go to vegas, but get 1st or 2nd and the $ is better. ok, great.

rinse repeat.....

So after all that my main issue is this (finally)....
If I play every week , after say 14 matches /weeks plus dues im "investing" $140 to the cause of the team , whereas most my team my only play half of what i play and also "invest " half of what i do.

Now when it gets time to get paid, the money gets divided EVENLY among all the players regardless of wether they played 4 matches or 14 ?!!! HuH? :thud:
it always happens (sans the masters team ive played on where theres only 4 or 5 guys and 3 matches per week and we rotation each week).

Why is it that teams(atleast the ones ive been on)dont PRO RATE player performance and "investment" when its time to divey up the dough?......yes, im on a "team" but fair is fair afterall.

If it was performance based like ...... "for every win during the regular session that player receives his full weekly $ dues amount back (or the % of it based on amount the team won),and "for every loss the $ goes into the team pool to be divided equally among the rest of the players", i would be fine with that , or if it was , "every player receives his/ her dues back for all matches played and the rest goes to team pool." ,ok. at least im on a break even proposition. somewhat.....

why would a player(s) who played say, 5 matches to my 14 and has a mediocre w/l record, get equal amount to what i get ? may also skips weeks , dont show up, ect.

I think as a team that every one should have an equal share as long as they have an equal input, lets say all the dues are paid by the team as a whole , thus divide by 8 most of the time. and not just the person who plays that match, with a team play rotation , or not , at the teams discretion ofcourse.


So , is there any team captains or players that do it the way im describing, feel the same way about it i do or am i getting a lil selfish, "jerky" or greedy perhaps?
..i d k.....Thoughts?
Well,you could say that i should tell the apa teams and captains before i join that im a hired gun to get wins and i expect to be reimbursed a fair percentage of my imput. but that would sound , well, kinda crappy and as a team captain i wouldnt want that guy on my team unless we were desperate. And im not that kinda guy....or am i?:grin-square:

Thank you, Tronpocket :speechless:
 
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ChicagoRJ

EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
Silver Member
Been playing in the same money league for over 10 years, even after it moved to a new location.

The cash is not split evenly... We divide by number of weeks played....the only fair way to do it.....

Heck, doing it your way, you might make a few bucks on top of what you paid in every week.... but the guy who shows up 5 weeks, triples his money? wtf?

If they think differently, I would start showing up less, and let others play more, and when they start seeing the "final standings" at the end of the year cause you are not there, they might have a change of heart....

We have 18 teams playing usually, so you should see all the math professors come league pay out night with their calculators doing exactly what we do....figuring out the "right" split.

No offense, but you got robbed. You are actually subsidizing the lesser skilled players by playing more than them.... hope they are worth it :)
 
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Houstoer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Play in BCA money league. The only ones that divide up the money equally are the people on the team that actually "qualify" for the playoffs at the end. In our league you need 33 games to qualify. If you don't get that number you don't get anything at the end.
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Sorry, I think you have the wrong mindset and miss the point of leagues.
If you care about the money, you're wasting your time with league.
It's not a contracting job with a paycheck on completion + cash bonuses for the hardest workers.

It's a form of entertainment that you pay to enjoy, just like paying to bowl or watch a PPV.
If some of that money comes back your way, then that's just random good luck.
Like you won a scratch ticket.

Even if some players don't play, they're on call to play as needed. It's not their fault
if they don't get picked because the decision is out of their hands.
And sometimes losing is out of their hands too, 80% is not normal for like an APA3 or BCA 5.
Between handicapping and random rolls, luck plays a huge role.

Let them enjoy their cash and come away with a good experience, don't make
it shitty for them by saying "ok, we're only giving you $40 because
you suck at pool and lose too much. I'm taking $170 because I can pull my weight."

I know you're used to playing on competitive teams who try to take first place
and/or go to vegas every year. So - if someone's not showing up, or they lose
because they're screwing around... talk to them midyear and get them to smarten up,
or don't invite 'em back for next season. The end of the year is too late to fix
them by 'docking their paycheck'.
 

CB Jones

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You could always form your own team and make you own rules.

My APA team captain is also the strongest player on the team. He does most of the scorekeeping, coaching, recruiting of new players and normally covers any forfeit matches. He also splits all winnings evenly regardless of matches played or win percentage knowing most of us would love to play every week.

When we head to vegas in a few weeks he will make the call on all the line ups, who plays and when. His team, his rules, his call.

In my area it is fairly easy to find a strong player that will win most of their matches. Much tougher to find a strong player that also wants to be a leader of the team.

CB
 

icucybe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You bring a valid concern and I thought about it before. I am an APA co captain. Since no one else in team seems concern I never borught it up. But I have cut back on my playing time. I used to play every week!
 

Banks

Banned
Pretty much the same thing Creedo said. At the same time, I tried my best to ensure to that nobody got skipped over and that everybody played about the same amount of matches. I'm in it for a social/team experience most of the time. If I want my money back, I go the BCA route. I suppose you could say that I pay a little extra to have an archive of stats, access to the stats of others and access to schedules in the area.
 

randyg

www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
I always thought that a Pool League was for social interaction and fun. I never though about the money. If we were to join a league to make money then I've got some property for sale.

randyg
 

oldgame

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On every team that I play on our home fees are paid and we dived equally the away fees. This way any money we get back it's diveded equally. Also everyone knows were out to win and that means some players play more than others. So far this has worked and if anyone has a problem then their off the team.
 

Tronpocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
so far so good , i see all the points made . good to see that there are a few "fair play" teams and captains out there who this makes sense too.

creedo, randy, i get it, not being sarcastisc either.
understand, im not in it to "go to vegas", altho it would be nice , or "make a nice profit" that would be good too if even possible. As far as social interaction, i can think of a few cheaper ways to interact with people outside my family that dont involve a lifetime of dedication to a game/sport, time, money, ect.
Interaction may be some peoples incentive and/or excuse to not care , but deep down i bet that even those "lonely" people would be changing thier tune when there on a plane to vegas. and its not fair to have a team of half serious players and half "socializers" . You want to socialize at a cost to me?.....dont think so.
Once, 1 time, i made a few bucks but %wise and after expenses it was crap, like 20% over cost. Im not complaining when i get it back , its I just want to enjoy some time out , play some pool , competitivly, and not have to pay for it in the long run, im gambling on free fun time.
Ive long understood that at best , for me and anyone else , league play isnt a good "investment " but it shouldnt be a net loss (for me) even when we win first or 2nd place .
I dont think that playing on a team that has a performance payout would be detremantal to the team, it should give incentive to play and compete well. The teams ive been on arent "drinking or party fun boy teams" where noone gives a rats arse and just wants to bang and hang. they were serious about trying to win. Otherwise i wouldnt have signed on . preety easy to see the difference in both.

keep em coming , i may start a revoloution , or not........:rolleyes:
 

DJKeys

Sound Design
Gold Member
Silver Member
I am captain of two BCA 8 Ball teams and if someone misses a week, we get a sub or alternate (alternate must play at least three weeks out of 16).The regular player still pays for the weeks they miss. Subs and alternates do not pay and do not receive any cash at the payout. This way, all players are entitled to their full share. This has been this way for the last 9 years and seems to work fine.

-dj
 

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My league teams have always, always, always divided the money equally. The MVP who played 14 times with an 80% win record and the guy who played 4 times and never won a match get paid the same. Quite frankly, I would not want to play on a team that does it any other way.

A while ago one of my team members broached the idea of paying based on weeks played and was quickly and unanimously voted down.

First and foremost, it's about team camaraderie. We choose our matchups to try to win, but we treat everyone on the team equally. The league is supposed to be a fun and competitive night out. It is not a job.

Secondly, these are handicapped leagues. So this season's MVP could be next season's goat. If someone is winning all the time every season, they are underhandicapped and should be raised.

We also don't look at the winnings as getting back your dues. Greens fees are paid to the room for the privilege of playing that night. Someone who sits out doesn't pay but also doesn't get the joy of playing.
 

Mickey Qualls

You study the watch......
Silver Member
The way we've always done it, total dues amount divided by players. Payout total is divided by amount of players.

Dues are $800 for the season, and there's five guys ? Each guy pays $160. Regardless of whether s/he plays every week.
And the team covers any 'sub' fees, too. There was a team on our league that used to charge the sub to play ??? WTF ????

Mickey <--- Pays the same, that way everybody has the same investment...
 

Matt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In handicapped leagues, I have usually been the strongest player on the team, and in non-handicapped leagues, I have usually been the captain. Both situations usually result in playing more matches. I have never made a big deal of it, but I understand how it can be irritating to feel like you are putting in more time/effort/money and not being rewarded any differently than those on your team who aren't.

My first thought is that I really just consider it entertainment and expect to pay when I play. If you don't enjoy playing matches and feel like it's just work, maybe it's time to quit playing in a league. Even if you consistently win, leagues are not going to pay you enough that you can consider it income, so don't treat it like work.

The problem with anything besides splitting the money evenly is that it hinders the camaraderie necessary to play as a team. Teams that do well generally play as a team. It's no guarantee of success, but it certainly helps when the motivation to help your team out is there. It's a funny thing: even players on teams with no cohesion at all occasionally crumble under the pressure of potentially letting their team down, but only players on teams that work well together seem to channel that pressure into a positive outcome.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Tronpocket...Sorry, but even though you say you're not, you're still "whining" about the $$$! Amateur league pool is NOT about the money (see the bold part of your post). If you can't figure this out, then find something else to do.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

so far so good , i see all the points made . good to see that there are a few "fair play" teams and captains out there who this makes sense too.

creedo, randy, i get it, not being sarcastisc either.
understand, im not in it to "go to vegas", altho it would be nice , or "make a nice profit" that would be good too if even possible. As far as social interaction, i can think of a few cheaper ways to interact with people outside my family that dont involve a lifetime of dedication to a game/sport, time, money, ect.
Interaction may be some peoples incentive and/or excuse to not care , but deep down i bet that even those "lonely" people would be changing thier tune when there on a plane to vegas. and its not fair to have a team of half serious players and half "socializers" . You want to socialize at a cost to me?.....dont think so.
Once, 1 time, i made a few bucks but %wise and after expenses it was crap, like 20% over cost. Im not complaining when i get it back , its I just want to enjoy some time out , play some pool , competitivly, and not have to pay for it in the long run, im gambling on free fun time.
Ive long understood that at best , for me and anyone else , league play isnt a good "investment " but it shouldnt be a net loss (for me) even when we win first or 2nd place .

I dont think that playing on a team that has a performance payout would be detremantal to the team, it should give incentive to play and compete well. The teams ive been on arent "drinking or party fun boy teams" where noone gives a rats arse and just wants to bang and hang. they were serious about trying to win. Otherwise i wouldnt have signed on . preety easy to see the difference in both.

keep em coming , i may start a revoloution , or not........:rolleyes:
 

Cory in DC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Apportioning shares of prize money based on weeks attended, not weeks played, has always seemed fair to me. Someone who always has a reason to not show up and barely gets 4 in has contributed less to the team than someone who is always ready to play (even if they don't), keeps score, coaches, etc.
 

dr9ball

"Lock Doctor"
Silver Member
Apportioning shares of prize money based on weeks attended, not weeks played, has always seemed fair to me. Someone who always has a reason to not show up and barely gets 4 in has contributed less to the team than someone who is always ready to play (even if they don't), keeps score, coaches, etc.

That makes sense unless its the same player who doesn't always show up every night that won the final match when the teams were tied that send you to Nationals or gets you the cash. If you short change those who win for the team when the pressure is on it will likely comeback to bite you in the future one way or the other.
 

Tronpocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scott, since ive been outed as a Whiney pool player , i feel much more at home here. Best regards , tronpocket:thumbup:

well people see things my way, not my way, kinda my way , just like i figured , thanks for the imput , mondays are so boring .
 
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Cory in DC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That makes sense unless its the same player who doesn't always show up every night that won the final match when the teams were tied that send you to Nationals or gets you the cash. If you short change those who win for the team when the pressure is on it will likely comeback to bite you in the future one way or the other.

You're also right. This was a while back. I think I gave 1 share for each week attended, 1 for each match played, and 1 for each win. Load it up in a spreadsheet and voila! All that to divvy up $150 semi-fairly!

Now that I reflect back, when we went to Vegas, we adopted the rule that everyone on the team got air and hotel, but that the remainder would be divvied up based on the above formula applied to matches in the tri-cup and LVQ. So it was more substantial than $150. In that case, we wanted to reward people who gave up more of their weekends, but not penalize the shooters who didn't play when we won 3-1 or 3-0.
 

Manoman2444

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry, I think you have the wrong mindset and miss the point of leagues.
If you care about the money, you're wasting your time with league.
It's not a contracting job with a paycheck on completion + cash bonuses for the hardest workers.

It's a form of entertainment that you pay to enjoy, just like paying to bowl or watch a PPV.
If some of that money comes back your way, then that's just random good luck.
Like you won a scratch ticket.

Even if some players don't play, they're on call to play as needed. It's not their fault
if they don't get picked because the decision is out of their hands.
And sometimes losing is out of their hands too, 80% is not normal for like an APA3 or BCA 5.
Between handicapping and random rolls, luck plays a huge role.

Let them enjoy their cash and come away with a good experience, don't make
it shitty for them by saying "ok, we're only giving you $40 because
you suck at pool and lose too much. I'm taking $170 because I can pull my weight."

I know you're used to playing on competitive teams who try to take first place
and/or go to vegas every year. So - if someone's not showing up, or they lose
because they're screwing around... talk to them midyear and get them to smarten up,
or don't invite 'em back for next season. The end of the year is too late to fix
them by 'docking their paycheck'.

Well said, exactly how I feel!
 
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