Lessons (long)

[Pete]

I used to live in Illinois and was thinking about going to this school also. I probably would have but I moved away too soon. I wasn't concerned about starting with the first class, because it said the classes were not "beginner, intermediate, and advanced." I figured since there was so much personal instruction it would probably be fine.

I don't think it's entirely fair to concentrate on the "$1800 for 3 classes" point. They can't force you to take all 3 classes. If you weren't satisfied with the first one ($600), you certainly don't have to take two more. Not that it doesn't suck to lose $600, but it's better than losing $1800!!!

However, after reading your post I went to their website again, and checked out the prices again. This point really bothered me:



That seems ridiculous to me, and may have really turned me off to this school if and when I return closer to home.

nyjoe, you might get better answers on this particular school if you mention its name in the title of the thread.

I think this is a valid point, but will add that if you go to the school and after the first couple of hours think it's not for you, you should be refunded your money period. Scott Lee told me that if I didn't like where we were going after the first hour we would shake hands and say good bye.

But to pay and think it's crap, no way. And if it's worth it they would do well offering that guantie.

Pete

PS I would really think about thaking BlackJack up on that, I might...

 

[CreeDo]

I think you should listen to Deadon. In a lot of 'ask the pro' forums where people ask "what do you wish you'd focused on more" and "what would you advise players at X skill level to focus on?" ...they always say fundamentals and stroke mechanics.

That might sound like some pat answer that they automatically give but I think they sincerely mean it. I seem to remember Jeanette Lee saying something like 'even though I was already winning championships [...] I went back for some instruction from Gene Nagy and he pointed out a flaw in my mechanics. Once I was able to fix those I became a worldbeater.'

That first class might well be the most valuable class out of the three.

I don't think it's a marketing scheme. If someone strolls into class #2 or #3 and the instructor sees bad fundamentals, he'd be in a bind... he'd feel obliged to correct them, but that's really supposed to be happening during another class and you wouldn't be able to get your money's worth out of the current one if he has to play catch-up.

You're right to keep your eyes open for proper references though.

 

[T-dog]

Just get a 4hr lesson from Scott Lee. He will get you pointed in the right direction and the rest is up to you. Seriously I have taken three session with Scott and know many others that have as well. EVERYONE said it was worth every penny. You dont even have to travel very far as I am sure he will be coming by your area sometime soon. If you are asking for advice, this is the best your going to get.

 

[Fatboy]

i've been playing for 20 something years and wouldnt take a begginers class its a complete and total waste of time, money for anyone who can play. Sounds to me like they are just aggressivly selling more classes.

i have had free lessions from one top player when i was a begginner years ago-i still to this day do what he showed me,


recently i paid for 2 lessions from a pro, not a short stop, and he showed me a couple minor glitches in my playing, very minor things, he figured it out in an hour, i'm working on them now anymore information right now until i get these 2 corrections made any more lessions would be too much, soon as I can do these things without thinking about them,, then i'm going to call him and were going to video, one step at a time, we both agreed this as the best way foward, now for D and C players I think the 8 hour days in a pool school is a good plan.

I believe the better the player the less problems thus the less time needed for lessions and more time to practice what you get out of the lessions. Also video is key.

 

[Scott Lee]

Fatboy...The only downside of taking lessons from a pro player is that MOST of them don't know what to look for, to assess how a student sets up and delivers the cuestick through the CB. They can show you how THEY do it, but that may or may not work for that student. A good instructor knows how to immediately spot flaws, and offer concrete suggestions on how to correct them. Video analysis is critical in this process. Like Mark Avlon pointed out, I work with hundreds of students every year, and I have yet to see one (even the expert players), with a 'perfect' stroke. Like Deadon mentioned, sometimes the smallest flaw can cause a high level player to plateau. Many expert and pro players do not understand the psychology, kinesiology, and physics involved in the perfect set up and delivery of the cuestick. A perfect example of this is almost every teacher (even 'would-be teachers), book and video constantly barrage the student with, "Hit the ball and FOLLOW THROUGH!". This is quite simply not enough detail, and frequently provides misinformation. Even if a pro player understands the process correctly, very few can communicate it effectively. Can they teach you shot selection and strategy...sure. Does that mean your stroke and fundamentals are as good as they should be (or could be)...absolutely not.
The value in lessons is what the student percieves it to be. For some it is priceless...for others, not worth the time or money (usually it is these folks who have never experienced a lesson with a qualified instructor).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[T-dog]

Fatboy...The only downside of taking lessons from a pro player is that MOST of them don't know what to look for, to assess how a student sets up and delivers the cuestick through the CB. They can show you how THEY do it, but that may or may not work for that student. A good instructor knows how to immediately spot flaws, and offer concrete suggestions on how to correct them. Video analysis is critical in this process. Like Mark Avlon pointed out, I work with hundreds of students every year, and I have yet to see one (even the expert players), with a 'perfect' stroke. Like Deadon mentioned, sometimes the smallest flaw can cause a high level player to plateau. Many expert and pro players do not understand the psychology, kinesiology, and physics involved in the perfect set up and delivery of the cuestick. A perfect example of this is almost every teacher (even 'would-be teachers), book and video constantly barrage the student with, "Hit the ball and FOLLOW THROUGH!". This is quite simply not enough detail, and frequently provides misinformation. Even if a pro player understands the process correctly, very few can communicate it effectively. Can they teach you shot selection and strategy...sure. Does that mean your stroke and fundamentals are as good as they should be (or could be)...absolutely not.
The value in lessons is what the student percieves it to be. For some it is priceless...for others, not worth the time or money (usually it is these folks who have never experienced a lesson with a qualified instructor).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott have you ever seriously considered why some great players would never consider lessons. I am interested in your thoughts on this. I am sure you have ran into a few. Surely they have differing oppinions as why the wouldnt take lessons. I know some fairly strong shortstops that have never taken a lesson and act as if they wouldnt although, I never have inquired why. I just think this is strange as all greats of all sports had instructors at some point. Shesh, even tiger has a coach.

 

[Brian in VA]

Troy,

I'd like to take a whack at your question. People typically don't take lessons for 3 reasons. The first is that they think they have nothing new to learn. The second is that their ego won't let them take a lesson because they might have to admit they don't do something perfectly or as well as they could and they have to pay money, too. The third is that they recognize that to improve you often have to go backwards in order to go forwards and doing so could be expensive and is very uncomfortable.

Someone mentioned Tiger Woods who, since turning pro 10 years ago, has rebuilt his swing twice. That's because he doesn't suffer from any of these 3 issues. He recognizes that perfection isn't possible and that the journey to get as close to that as possible is worth the sacrifice.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Great question, BTW.

Brian in VA

 

[Fatboy]

Fatboy...The only downside of taking lessons from a pro player is that MOST of them don't know what to look for, to assess how a student sets up and delivers the cuestick through the CB. They can show you how THEY do it, but that may or may not work for that student. A good instructor knows how to immediately spot flaws, and offer concrete suggestions on how to correct them. Video analysis is critical in this process. Like Mark Avlon pointed out, I work with hundreds of students every year, and I have yet to see one (even the expert players), with a 'perfect' stroke. Like Deadon mentioned, sometimes the smallest flaw can cause a high level player to plateau. Many expert and pro players do not understand the psychology, kinesiology, and physics involved in the perfect set up and delivery of the cuestick. A perfect example of this is almost every teacher (even 'would-be teachers), book and video constantly barrage the student with, "Hit the ball and FOLLOW THROUGH!". This is quite simply not enough detail, and frequently provides misinformation. Even if a pro player understands the process correctly, very few can communicate it effectively. Can they teach you shot selection and strategy...sure. Does that mean your stroke and fundamentals are as good as they should be (or could be)...absolutely not.
The value in lessons is what the student percieves it to be. For some it is priceless...for others, not worth the time or money (usually it is these folks who have never experienced a lesson with a qualified instructor).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

scott,

i agree 100% most pro's dont make good instructors, I shopped around and got a good one-I was lucky. I

 

[RBLilly]

Schools

I didn't go to the school you are talking about, but I went through CueTech Pool School in the DFW area.

I will tell you this. I had been playing for about 8-9 years, and I thought I was a pretty good player. I really thought them starting off with the stroke was a waste of time.

However they improved my stroke, and within the last year my game has really taken off.

I am considering going back to the same class to have my stroke reavaluated just to make sure I am still instroke.

You can do whatever you want, but I will tell you that it is worth its weight in gold to have someone assess your stroke and make sure you don't have any bad habits.

I went to pool school three times and all in all it came out to around $20 an hour by the time I went to all three sessions.

Most instructors that give one on one lessons charge $25 - $50 an hour. So to me I got my moneys worth!

You do whatever you want though. I had a lot of people tell me that it wouldn't make a difference in my game, and they couldn't teach them anything new. Now a year later everyone is asking how I got so good in such a short time.

One short answer Pool-School!

www.poolschool.info

 

[T-dog]

Troy,

I'd like to take a whack at your question. People typically don't take lessons for 3 reasons. The first is that they think they have nothing new to learn. The second is that their ego won't let them take a lesson because they might have to admit they don't do something perfectly or as well as they could and they have to pay money, too. The third is that they recognize that to improve you often have to go backwards in order to go forwards and doing so could be expensive and is very uncomfortable.

Someone mentioned Tiger Woods who, since turning pro 10 years ago, has rebuilt his swing twice. That's because he doesn't suffer from any of these 3 issues. He recognizes that perfection isn't possible and that the journey to get as close to that as possible is worth the sacrifice.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Great question, BTW.

Brian in VA

Thanks for your response. Ego is more than likely the whole issue, imho.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... People typically don't take lessons for 3 reasons. The first is that they think they have nothing new to learn. The second is that their ego won't let them take a lesson because they might have to admit they don't do something perfectly or as well as they could and they have to pay money, too. The third is that they recognize that to improve you often have to go backwards in order to go forwards and doing so could be expensive and is very uncomfortable. ...

A fourth is that there is almost no tradition of pool instruction in the US. Things are very different in other parts of the world, and as you noted, in other sports.

 

[BRKNRUN]

For that kind of money I would get personal instruction from an individual teacher / coach.

The problem I have with with the group instruction classes (that force you to go through the beginning stages) is that they never make it clear that they are going to teach you the things "for you"

I get the impression that they try to make all players play exactly the same way based on their system of teaching. same rythum same body / arm / stance positions etc.

The fact is that no two players are the same. People not only play different physically, but they also play different mentally. And the big one is that players "learn" differently.

If you go into a "system" teaching approach like they seamingly advertise, it may work very well for you if you fit thier system. If not it may turn into a waste of money

By going to an individual, that instructor (if good) can adapt to your style of play / learning and you would get a much better end result.

Black Jack / Scott Lee / Randy G / Mark Wilson / POOLTCHR / and yes Hal Houle are people I would seek out. They have the ability to see your level of game / understanding / etc. and can taylor instruction to fit your needs.

I mention Hal not because if his ability as an instructor per say. I am not even sure if he teaches mechanics, but the information he shares with people opens up a whole nother world of understanding about this game. (even if you end up not using his methods)

 

[CamposCues]

Lessons

Just get a 4hr lesson from Scott Lee. He will get you pointed in the right direction and the rest is up to you. Seriously I have taken three session with Scott and know many others that have as well. EVERYONE said it was worth every penny. You dont even have to travel very far as I am sure he will be coming by your area sometime soon. If you are asking for advice, this is the best your going to get.

I've wanted to get some help for a long time. Maybe I'll hit Scott up since you aren't too far from me and were able to get something set up. I just never persued it because I didn't think I'd be able to get instruction with out major travleing involved. I have no doubt my stroke is the reason I suck. I was self taught, so you can imagine. A few years back a much better player once told me he was impressed with my shot making, considering I had the worst stroke he ever saw. He still laughs at me everytime we play. I have never video taped myself and wouldn't know how to fix it if I did.

 

[JoeyA]

Coaching At Tournaments

Fatboy...The only downside of taking lessons from a pro player is that MOST of them don't know what to look for, to assess how a student sets up and delivers the cuestick through the CB. They can show you how THEY do it, but that may or may not work for that student. A good instructor knows how to immediately spot flaws, and offer concrete suggestions on how to correct them. Video analysis is critical in this process. Like Mark Avlon pointed out, I work with hundreds of students every year, and I have yet to see one (even the expert players), with a 'perfect' stroke. Like Deadon mentioned, sometimes the smallest flaw can cause a high level player to plateau. Many expert and pro players do not understand the psychology, kinesiology, and physics involved in the perfect set up and delivery of the cuestick. A perfect example of this is almost every teacher (even 'would-be teachers), book and video constantly barrage the student with, "Hit the ball and FOLLOW THROUGH!". This is quite simply not enough detail, and frequently provides misinformation. Even if a pro player understands the process correctly, very few can communicate it effectively. Can they teach you shot selection and strategy...sure. Does that mean your stroke and fundamentals are as good as they should be (or could be)...absolutely not.
The value in lessons is what the student percieves it to be. For some it is priceless...for others, not worth the time or money (usually it is these folks who have never experienced a lesson with a qualified instructor).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

COACHING AT TOURNAMENTS

Scott, another revenue stream that might be considered for qualified pool instructors like yourself is in pool tournament coaching.

There are people who would pay reasonable monies for you to observe, correct and in general coach. You could do this far easier than pool instruction and you could possibly convert some naysayers in the process as well as make some good money coaching during a tournament.

I think it would be fun for both the player and you. You get paid and you get to make a tournament player happy. You could probably manage a couple of projects at the same time thereby able to reduce overall costs per hour.

Sign me up for some coaching at DCC. Some preliminary signals could bypass the no talking rules. Practice up some pool player sign language. You know..like the hand moving horizontal as if you were smoothing sand.
There may be specific rules which prohibit this. If so even then it would be worthwhile to have a coach review your match afterwards while it is fresh in their/your mind.
JoeyA

 

[randyg]

I've wanted to get some help for a long time. Maybe I'll hit Scott up since you aren't too far from me and were able to get something set up. I just never persued it because I didn't think I'd be able to get instruction with out major travleing involved. I have no doubt my stroke is the reason I suck. I was self taught, so you can imagine. A few years back a much better player once told me he was impressed with my shot making, considering I had the worst stroke he ever saw. He still laughs at me everytime we play. I have never video taped myself and wouldn't know how to fix it if I did.

Scott Lee will be teaching in a school very close to you this June....SPF=randyg

 

[Pushout]

COACHING AT TOURNAMENTS

Scott, another revenue stream that might be considered for qualified pool instructors like yourself is in pool tournament coaching.

There are people who would pay reasonable monies for you to observe, correct and in general coach. You could do this far easier than pool instruction and you could possibly convert some naysayers in the process as well as make some good money coaching during a tournament.

I think it would be fun for both the player and you. You get paid and you get to make a tournament player happy. You could probably manage a couple of projects at the same time thereby able to reduce overall costs per hour.

Sign me up for some coaching at DCC. Some preliminary signals could bypass the no talking rules. Practice up some pool player sign language. You know..like the hand moving horizontal as if you were smoothing sand.
There may be specific rules which prohibit this. If so even then it would be worthwhile to have a coach review your match afterwards while it is fresh in their/your mind.
JoeyA

Joey, I'm not 100% sure, but I think any form of coaching during a match is considered cheating, or unsportsmanlike at best.

 

[CamposCues]

Sl

Scott Lee will be teaching in a school very close to you this June....SPF=randyg

Thanks, I'm going to hit him up for some info.

 

[ShootingArts]

I can help!

The local cops use a private sign language, this may be common for most forces. They use the ol' magic digit to indicate the situation is thoroughly fouled up, the first thing anyone coaching me would have to know!

Hu

COACHING AT TOURNAMENTS

Scott, another revenue stream that might be considered for qualified pool instructors like yourself is in pool tournament coaching.

There are people who would pay reasonable monies for you to observe, correct and in general coach. You could do this far easier than pool instruction and you could possibly convert some naysayers in the process as well as make some good money coaching during a tournament.

I think it would be fun for both the player and you. You get paid and you get to make a tournament player happy. You could probably manage a couple of projects at the same time thereby able to reduce overall costs per hour.

Sign me up for some coaching at DCC. Some preliminary signals could bypass the no talking rules. Practice up some pool player sign language. You know..like the hand moving horizontal as if you were smoothing sand.
There may be specific rules which prohibit this. If so even then it would be worthwhile to have a coach review your match afterwards while it is fresh in their/your mind.
JoeyA

 

[tpdtom]

Several hours ago I finished three days of one on one instruction with Stan Shuffett, father of Landon Shuffett, the 12 year old who plays with the men on the pro tour. Stan is a newly retired teacher and college billiard instructor, a great communicator, and a BCA Advanced Instructor. I can't say enough good about the entire experience, but let it suffice to say that after playing for decades at a fairly high level I could never have diagnosed the flaw in my stroke that Stan identified and videoed in the first few hours together. Then, over the next two days we found ways to correct it and drills for improvement with self monitors and feedback.

I should mention that compared to other great and well known instructors that I contacted, Stan charged "working man" prices and gave me total individual attention for three days. He loves teaching and it's easy to see that your success is very important to him. The BCA Foundation Course is appropriate for players at any level.

Last but not least, if you travel to Kentucky to take lessons from Stan, you'll stay in a great area which is friendly and laid back. Not much night life, but as I said, it's super friendly and I enjoyed every minute. My highest recommendation and I have no connection to Stan except as a very satisfied student. Link below...Tom

www.justcueit.com

 

[CaptiveBred]

Is stroke correction the main thing instructors sell? if you have a look at the top players in the world, MANY of them have imperfect strokes.

I don't see the importance... I think a ball can be stroked an infinate number of ways to get the same results... its not brain surgery

If I were to take some lessons i would be after KNOWLEDGE! Not my stroke. Even if it could be better (which I'm sure it could) I still ould rather purchase knowledge with my limited funds.

I get tired of reading/hearing all the old stand byes when it comes to playing better. Like staying down, stroke, and we can't forget inlays lol.


I know fundamentals are important but creating robots is a waste of time. All one has to do is create a reproducable consistant stroke. No matter what it looks likes makes no difference if you are straight and can follow through... IMO, knowledge is the most powerfull tool in a pool players tool box.


Whenever I see instructors selling fundamentals I get turned off. I'm at the stage in my pool life where I am extremely thirsty for any advanced knowledge I may have missed. I think teachers would do well to recognize their are different customers in the billiard instruction industry. Most people I have come to know would not be too interested in lessons on fundamentals unless it was quick, cheap, and painless. Advanced knowledge shared by a top player always gathers a crowd. Its what real players want and nobody will share

I have only taken lessons once in my life. A three cushion player said he could tach me some rail systems. I jumped on it cause it was info I needed. If he said, let me fix your stroke, I'd say lets play some BTW, my stroke is far from perfect but its a product of intention. I developed it on purpose and I would not be willing to change cause it works for me and works very well...


Every major improve I have made in pool was due to knowledge. I think the first epiphany I had was the 90 degree rule. Knowing that made my game FAR MORE powerfull than a text book stroke. I have had several major jumps in my level of play over the years and all of them was due to absorbing a piece of knowledge that opened my eyes.

And for most good players, what could you expect to gain out of fixing a minor stroke problem? Really, what new shot would they now be able to execute? most good players can already execute all shots so changing the stroke would not help much IMO... Try to improve Allen Hopkins stroke to make him better

Anyways, stroke mechanics are basic. most pool players want to spend their cash on advanced. And most good players have a stroke that is plenty good enough, as is, to play at a very high level if only they knew all the secret info out there /shrug