Let's Bring The Discussion Of Pool Player As Job Over Here

Actually I think that the most disturbing thing in American pool is that B-level players who give advice to pro players can't make a decent living at it. :p

Most B level players make a living doing something outside of pool.

Its only all the A players and above who are trying to make a living in pool.
 
Actually I think that the most disturbing thing in American pool is that B-level players who give advice to pro players can't make a decent living at it. :p

Or B-level players that hang on the nuts of pro players.

And here we have above the other fatal flaw -- just because someone can draw their ball better than 99.9999% of the world, this makes them an astute businessman, money manager and gives them the keen ability to always make the right decision. Although history shows listening to their pro player peers leads them to the end of the Camel Tour, the abrupt end to the IPT, end of Ultimate 10 ball, CSI Open Pro Events, and the jury is still out on Bonus Ball (I am being nice on that one).

Yes every pro player understands the game of pool itself better than the public, understand the pressure of having to make money from pro better than the public. But they need to understand that they need more than that to turn their passion into a profession.

When I opened by GNC store, I learned about the products I was selling but really knew nothing about business. So I went to people I knew that were smart, successful businessmen and picked their brains --- constantly.

One of the smartest businessman I ever met was Bob Huddleston (his son posts on this site and I hope he doesn't mind if I relay this story). Family owns Cue N Cushion here in STL. They used to have this $35,000 table right when you walked in the front door. It had the carved legs, etc. I saw it there for years. One day I asked Bob - "Are you ever gonna sell this table?" His reply surprised me. He said "Well Vince Coleman almost bought it once but I hope I never sell it" When I asked him why, he replied "Because do you realize how many $1500 - $5000 pool tables I have sold because of that table. People come in, see that table and are shocked at the price. Then we take them into our showroom and they feel relieved to only be spending a few thousand".

To me, this is the flip mentality of the professional pool player. They want all they can for today and don't think about tomorrow. I posted this before - what if Efren had only won $100K or $50K in those early IPT events instead of $300K or $500K. KT might still be around and so would the IPT. ESPN or FOX could have more of an opportunity to see pool in a premier setting and been attracted to it.

The professional pool player needs to understand that you can milk a cow every day but can only slaughter it once.
 
Most B level players make a living doing something outside of pool.

Its only all the A players and above who are trying to make a living in pool.

I think he's missing the point. It's the other way around. People that are earning a living are trying to give advice to others that are struggling to do so. There's no questioning the talent, but the management is missing. I think that you putting your foot down when offering a payday is going a long way and sets some standards.
 
sooooo true

Actually I think that the most disturbing thing in American pool is that B-level players who give advice to pro players can't make a decent living at it. :p

that's funny...and sooooo true :D

larry-the-cable-guy.jpg
 
I need to learn to put the quote I'm replying to, how do I do that? Anyone?

Instead of clicking on "POST REPLY" at the bottom (or top) of a page, click on "QUOTE" at the bottom of the post you want to quote. If you want to quote just a portion of someone's post, click on "QUOTE" and then edit the quoted post before writing your comments.
 
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This idea that athletes are not professionals unless they act like ________ is laughable. Do you understand how many rich pro athletes in other sports don't fit the requirement for "professional" I see thrown around here?

This idea that the players are not professional is thrown around by promoters as a reason for why the promoters can't make money. The blame is placed on the players but who is really to blame for the lack of money generated from professional pool events? Should the blame be placed on the player or the promoter? What is the job of each? I can think of a lot more plqyers that compete on a world class level than I can promoters but I hear the claim that only 16 players can really make a living at this game. What promoter would be considered the equivalent of an "A" player if promoters were rated in the US? Who is a world class promoter in pool? If we had one then more than 16 players would make a living I assure you.

Pro pool is not the problem, it does fine in other countries. The players are not the problem, athletes with much worse attitudes are successful. When the promoters get as good at promoting the game as the Pros are at playing it the money will come.
 
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Professional pool players in America are, indeed, self-employed according to the Tax Code.

Unlike industry members, 99 percent of American professional players don't have industry members supporting them with cash to keep them afloat or give them a boost. Those that do, I can count on one hand. Industry members support other industry members in the American pool world.

Having been in this pool world for over 40 years, longer than some members of this forum have been alive on this Earth, I have a good view of all facets in the pool world.

In the '80s and before, a professional player, whether he was an "emotionless robot" or a "loud-mouth drunk," could eke out a living as a self-employed pool player. The payouts in pool tournaments today are the same as then, but in the '80s, one could, say, get a hotel room for 40 bucks. Today, it's more difficult due to how much more expensive things are today.

If a so-called "professional pool player" wants to get a traditional 9-5 job and continue their pool-playing activities, they can do this and become what I call "weekend warriors," those who play on the weekends but don't quit their day jobs. It is not possible, as stated numerous times, to play pool full-time and compete internationally without devoting more time to hitting balls than holding down a job.

To those who say a pool player can get a job in a pool room, give lessons, exhibitions, et cetera, in case you haven't noticed, most pool rooms are shutting down, closing shop, due to lack of interest. The younger generation today socialize via their tablets, smartphones, and computers. The pool room used to be a social venue for its regulars, and pool became the common denominator. Not so anymore. Pool rooms today need alcohol and other attractions besides pool to keep afloat. Most pool rooms in America today cannot afford to pay a so-called "professional pool player" to be house pro. More than dozen pool rooms have closed in my area in the past 10 years.

On this forum, the majority of members are social shooters, league players, and amateurs. There is not a lot of activity from the pro-caliber pool player on AzBilliards. Therefore, the majority of opinions lean in one direction.

As an aside, one of the biggest problems in the American pool world is the ego bashings. Industry supports industry, and the majority of those industry members don't give two sh*ts about professional pool surviving. They may pretend to cry broke, but their expenses are getting paid. There is a lot of big fragile egos in the American pool world, however. Industry helps industry, e.g., Billiard Congress of America, and nobody cares about professional pool anymore. This is a fact that you all should be cognizant of. In this regard, this forum should be happy. Professional pool in America is now dead, a stinking fish in the water for all to turn their noses up at. Damned is the professional pool player, for they are branded in the eyes of the American pool culture.

I recently had a fun colloquy with a lady I shot pool with in the '80s. We played on a league. Her team was a pool room, and my team was a local tavern. Our league was 8-ball. The winning match came down to her versus me. The score was tied, and I was breaking. Whoever won this game, their team wins. This girl was a better shooter than me, and I knew it. I cannot remember a time that I had been as nervous playing pool. My heart felt like it was beating through my chest, and my face was beet-red and hot. :(

My team was supporting me, standing by. Though this girl could play better on the 9-footers than me, I was a great 8-ball player, having played it my whole life, and I knew the 8-ball break, sliding the 8 in the side. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it's the best high in the world. You see, on our league, an 8-on-the-break is a win. :wink:

I looked over at my team captain, Sonny, and said, "Sonny, 8-ball in the side pocket." I cracked the rack with all my might, using the inside english needed to push that 8-ball, and the 8-ball rolled into the side pocket like it had eyes. My entire team erupted in cheers and came over to me, giving me high-fives and pats on the back. I was a pool hero and on top of the world. What a feeling! This is my happiest memory in pool, playing on the leagues. :cool:

Back to professional pool, since I entered this realm in the autumn of my life, it has been filled with mixed feelings. My other half, FWIW, isn't a tournament soldier, though he was relegated to be one after the advent of the Internet. His glory days in pool, like mine on that league, are behind us. We will, however, continue to enjoy pool in America for what it has to offer, and neither of us will belittle, demean, stereotype, or ridicule professional pool with all its warts and flaws. :sorry:

In conclusion, thank the good Lord that I didn't quit my day job. You can't live off of love, and you can't live comfortably in 2014 being a professional pool player. Like Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jeanette Lee, Ewa Mataya Lawrence, Tom Kennedy, Shannon Daulton, Tony Crosby, et cetera, me and mine will earn a buck or two on pool, but it sure as heck won't be competing in pool tournaments, sad to say, because playing pool truly is the wind beneath Keith McCready's wings. Again, you just can't live off of love, and to be a professional pool player in 2014, you can't hold down a full-time traditional job.
 
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Professional pool players in America are, indeed, self-employed according to the Tax Code.

Unlike industry members, 99 percent of American professional players don't have industry members supporting them with cash to keep them afloat or give them a boost. Those that do, I can count on one hand. Industry members support other industry members in the American pool world.

Having been in this pool world for over 40 years, longer than some members of this forum have been alive on this Earth, I have a good view of all facets in the pool world.

In the '80s and before, a professional player, whether he was an "emotionless robot" or a "loud-mouth drunk," could eke out a living as a self-employed pool player. The payouts in pool tournaments today are the same as then, but in the '80s, one could, say, get a hotel room for 40 bucks. Today, it's more difficult due to how much more expensive things are today.

If a so-called "professional pool player" wants to get a traditional 9-5 job and continue their pool-playing activities, they can do this and become what I call "weekend warriors," those who play on the weekends but don't quit their day jobs. It is not possible, as stated numerous times, to play pool full-time and compete internationally without devoting more time to hitting balls than holding down a job.

To those who say a pool player can get a job in a pool room, give lessons, exhibitions, et cetera, in case you haven't noticed, most pool rooms are shutting down, closing shop, due to lack of interest. The younger generation today socialize via their tablets, smartphones, and computers. The pool room used to be a social venue for its regulars, and pool became the common denominator. Not so anymore. Pool rooms today need alcohol and other attractions besides pool to keep afloat. Most pool rooms in America today cannot afford to pay a so-called "professional pool player" to be house pro. More than dozen pool rooms have closed in my area in the past 10 years.

On this forum, the majority of members are social shooters, league players, and amateurs. There is not a lot of activity from the pro-caliber pool player on AzBilliards. Therefore, the majority of opinions lean in one direction.

As an aside, one of the biggest problems in the American pool world is the ego bashings. Industry supports industry, and the majority of those industry members don't give two sh*ts about professional pool surviving. They may pretend to cry broke, but their expenses are getting paid. There is a lot of big fragile egos in the American pool world, however. Industry helps industry, e.g., Billiard Congress of America, and nobody cares about professional pool anymore. This is a fact that you all should be cognizant of. In this regard, this forum should be happy. Professional pool in America is now dead, a stinking fish in the water for all to turn their noses up at. Damned is the professional pool player, for they are branded in the eyes of the American pool culture.

I recently had a fun colloquy with a lady I shot pool with in the '80s. We played on a league. Her team was a pool room, and my team was a local tavern. Our league was 8-ball. The winning match came down to her versus me. The score was tied, and I was breaking. Whoever won this game, their team wins. This girl was a better shooter than me, and I knew it. I cannot remember a time that I had been as nervous playing pool. My heart felt like it was beating through my chest, and my face was beet-red and hot. :(

My team was supporting me, standing by. Though this girl could play better on the 9-footers than me, I was a great 8-ball player, having played it my whole life, and I knew the 8-ball break, sliding the 8 in the side. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it's the best high in the world. You see, on our league, an 8-on-the-break is a win. :wink:

I looked over at my team captain, Sonny, and said, "Sonny, 8-ball in the side pocket." I cracked the rack with all my might, using the inside english needed to push that 8-ball, and the 8-ball rolled into the side pocket like it had eyes. My entire team erupted in cheers and came over to me, giving me high-fives and pats on the back. I was a pool hero and on top of the world. What a feeling! This is my happiest memory in pool, playing on the leagues. :cool:

Back to professional pool, since I entered this realm in the autumn of my life, it has been filled with mixed feelings. My other half, FWIW, isn't a tournament soldier, though he was relegated to be one after the advent of the Internet. His glory days in pool, like mine on that league, are behind us. We will, however, continue to enjoy pool in America for what it has to offer, and neither of us will belittle, demean, stereotype, or ridicule professional pool with all its warts and flaws. :sorry:

In conclusion, thank the good Lord that I didn't quit my day job. You can't live off of love, and you can't live comfortably in 2014 being a professional pool player. Like Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jeanette Lee, Ewa Mataya Lawrence, Tom Kennedy, Shannon Daulton, Tony Crosby, et cetera, me and mine will earn a buck or two on pool, but it sure as heck won't be competing in pool tournaments, sad to say, because playing pool truly is the wind beneath Keith McCready's wings. Again, you just can't live off of love, and to be a professional pool player in 2014, you can't hold down a full-time traditional job.

Does Keith play pool at all any more or has he hung up the stick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
pro,s

I believe players have to act like pro,s to be treated that way. You reap what you sow. If pool had 150 Hopkins,Varners,Rempes, Van Boenings,we would have sponsors .Drugs, dumping are not going to get it done.
 
Does Keith play pool at all any more or has he hung up the stick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can take Keith out of pool, but you can never take pool out of Keith's heart. :smiling-heart:

Look for the Keith McCready Show at a pool venue in 2014. :grin-square:

He'll be back! ;)
 

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You can take Keith out of pool, but you can never take pool out of Keith's heart. :smiling-heart:

Look for the Keith McCready Show at a pool venue in 2014. :grin-square:

He'll be back! ;)

That doesn't look like Keith at all?
 
You can take Keith out of pool, but you can never take pool out of Keith's heart. :smiling-heart:

Look for the Keith McCready Show at a pool venue in 2014. :grin-square:

He'll be back! ;)

So he's playing again? Or just hosting a "the Color of money" viewing party


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
That doesn't look like Keith at all?

Man, you guys are rough this morning. :D

The significance of the TCOM photo of Fast Eddie and Vincent is to show Fast Eddie's return to the pool scene after a hiatus, which is what Keith will be doing in 2014. :smile:
 
Tell someone in the USA with little or no real exposure to the pool scene that you are a "serious pool player" and they will invariably call you a shark or pool hustler and maybe even begin to perceive you in a somewhat negative light. It's automatic.The game just has that stigma here in the USA, and pool culture here has done it to itself. Movies like The Hustler, TCOM, Baltimore Bullet & Poolhall Junkies all glorify the fast lazy buck, usually won by whoopin' someone on the table, typically using some kind of dishonest tactic.

Everyone wants to be the next Minnesota Fats, Vincent Lauria or Fast Eddie and be crowned the "greatest hustler of all time" but but nobody interested in being the next Willie Mosconi.... or more recently, Ralf Souquet, a player who rose up through the German Bundesliga feeder system and who has made a very good living at this game.

Having lived in Europe for 20 years of my life and having played in nationally sanctioned, organized club league system in Germany, I can say with sincere honesty that they generally take a more structured and pragmatic approach to pool. It's much more innocent and above the board. They have pool halls like we do here, but there are also organized club-league teams who travel and play each other in multiple layers of regional and national divisions, where the good teams advance to the next highest division/level and the bad teams drop down a level. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a handicap league and it makes the less skilled players take the game more seriously. Sure, there are gamblers there too, but the mindset is not nearly as prevalent (not even close). It feels like the primary motivator there is the love of the game and to develop skill, not the lure of easy money or the next hustle. And telling someone you are a billiards/pool player doesn't lead to assumptive stereotyping. There are club leagues for volleyball, badminton, table-tennis, etc... Pick your sport and they have sanctioned, organized competitive leagues for it, each with very similar structure, pool is just one of many.

Pool in the USA seems so completely disorganized at all levels... Do we even have a reliable way to identify the top 25 American players? There's no such thing as a nationally sanctioned non-handicapped league. Instead, there are at least a half-dozen handicapped leagues, all operating with different handicapping philosophies and rulebooks. And then there is a decreasing number of invitational and open "heavyweight" pool tournaments with prize funds that wouldn't satisfy even the lowest of the established golf tours.

Pool has several things going against it here, beyond the negative media stigma and the overwhelming popularity of handicapped social leagues.... Part of the problem here is that our country is sooooooo BIG! It takes a big budget to city hop for tournaments outside of the Northeast, making a "national league" type of team structured league almost impossible. Another issue is that the game really sucks for spectators. Where can you go and actually watch a match without inhaling a ton of carcinogens, or where you can actually sit in a comfortable chair and watch a match? Most tournaments are in spaces only large enough to hold a few front row spectators. And would you want to take you kids to a pool tournament to watch, or would you be afraid of what they may see or hear?

Frankly, I think streaming matches and tournaments are the best we can hope for in terms of future exposure for our sport on this continent. And until those tournaments can include the type of prize money that make it worth a person's time/effort to travel and assume the risk, this is all just conjecture. Now, how do we get that money into those tournaments? That's the million dollar question, eh? Answer that one with some real results and things may start looking up... But until then, pool in the USA has really just been reduced to a great way for an individual to pass spare time and develop fine motor skills.

Smart stuff. I think most "what's wrong with pool threads" should start with this post. The size of the country as an obstacle is not something I have thought of, but now that you mention it; I think you are right.

I wonder if it would work if we had state, regional, and national tournaments with certain elite players advancing to the next level. Maybe that concenpt could make high level competition easier to engage in?

Thanks for the post. There is a lot to think about there.

kollegedave
 
You are confusing being a professional with playing pool tournaments. There are professional pistol shooters. The top guys win all the events. They make wayyyy less than a pool player doing that. They make may more than pro pool players doing endorsements, teaching and doing exhibitions. There are about ten of those guys. In the entire firearms industry that does BILLIONS of dollars a year. All winning tournaments or being a great player does is get you a seat at the table. What you do with it is up to you.

No, I totally understand that.

I was told by a poster that the top 25 players make a good living based on azbilliards money list. I disagreed.

For instance, Corey Deuel was 19th making $41,225 in 2013. And $41,225 is a fine living in some parts of the country. That is, unless you're flying to work, staying in hotels to work and paying $500 everytime you work and no idea if you'll get paid that day or not. Then, it's not a fine living. So $41,225 ends up being closer to 15-20k. That's all I said and Watchez told me I was wrong and I simply don't see how I'm wrong. He compared it to an everyday job and I don't think you can do that.

Obviously nobody forced Corey to do what he does. He chose the life and if he's happy with it, have it it hoss.

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And if my job paid me $41K a year and I have $15 a day in expenses for travel/clothing to my job - that leaves me with $37K. Minus taxes of another $14K or so and I am left with $23K. As filing as self employed - as JAM pointed out - Corey is afforded the benefit of many more write offs before he pays a nickel in taxes. So it sounds like the pro pool player and the average working man in the USA are in the same boat, making you wrong. :p
 
And if my job paid me $41K a year and I have $15 a day in expenses for travel/clothing to my job - that leaves me with $37K. Minus taxes of another $14K or so and I am left with $23K. As filing as self employed - as JAM pointed out - Corey is afforded the benefit of many more write offs before he pays a nickel in taxes. So it sounds like the pro pool player and the average working man in the USA are in the same boat, making you wrong. :p

It wouldn't be $15/day in expenses if you were traveling to the other side of the country to do your job on your own dime. Staying in a hotel on your own dime and paying $500 to go to work on your own dime.

$41k/year turns into $18k before the IRS even asks for money.
 
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