Lets talk about Butts

[ShootingArts]

one piece bocote

I play with a one piece bocote butt. Along the way I had to plug the pin hole with maple and redrill and tap the hole to center it in the butt. Then I installed a g-10 pin and Ivorine 4 collar. Ivorine 4 collar and ferule on a flat laminate shaft I was testing too along with a Moori III medium tip. The butt is hollowed out quite a ways from the back for balance and the stick is light because I prefer them that way. The hit pleases most people who try it.

There are almost endless ways to build a cue butt. All can result in a very nice cue. It has more to do with who is doing the building than the exact method they choose to build with.

Hu

 

[manwon]

Thanks I needed a laugh!!!

 

[jasonlaus]

OK, you asked for a cuemaker, here I am (since 1986). 1st off the MOST important parts of the cue are the tip, ferrule & shaft. These 3 things affect the HIT, more than anything else. So in my opinion, what ever you do to the butt secton plays only a small part, in the HIT. JER

Then why do my 2 cues feel SOOOO different if all I'm doing is taking the shaft off one and putting it on the other? In your scenario they should play almost identical with the same shaft. And no this isn't a pred. or OB that I'm using on two different makers cues, this is a shaft from the maker being used on 2 cues by the same maker. Same shaft, tip, and ferrule - two completely different hits.
Sorry but your above statement is not true.

 

[jcommie]

Then why do my 2 cues feel SOOOO different if all I'm doing is taking the shaft off one and putting it on the other? In your scenario they should play almost identical with the same shaft. And no this isn't a pred. or OB that I'm using on two different makers cues, this is a shaft from the maker being used on 2 cues by the same maker. Same shaft, tip, and ferrule - two completely different hits.
Sorry but your above statement is not true.

Because...

1. Hit is subjective.

2. You may subconsciously be biased because you already have a preconceived notion about the whole issue.

3. Joint materials may be different- that may affect the hit.

4. Possible discrepancies in the length/weight/balance point of the cues.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Then why do my 2 cues feel SOOOO different if all I'm doing is taking the shaft off one and putting it on the other? In your scenario they should play almost identical with the same shaft. And no this isn't a pred. or OB that I'm using on two different makers cues, this is a shaft from the maker being used on 2 cues by the same maker. Same shaft, tip, and ferrule - two completely different hits.
Sorry but your above statement is not true.

Maybe the handle wood in your other cue is not a very tight-grained wood.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Then why do my 2 cues feel SOOOO different if all I'm doing is taking the shaft off one and putting it on the other? In your scenario they should play almost identical with the same shaft. And no this isn't a pred. or OB that I'm using on two different makers cues, this is a shaft from the maker being used on 2 cues by the same maker. Same shaft, tip, and ferrule - two completely different hits.
Sorry but your above statement is not true.

I do not have any axe to grind & yes I stand by every word I said. You can not compare apples & oranges. I feel that HIT is something that is constantly reminding us of something that is a subjective thing. Your cue butts may of diferent weights or balance points. My experiments have been with the SAME butt & the same shaft. I 1st turned the butt & shaft & played with this cue. Then I changed the ferrule material. I played with it & noticed a different feel. Then I changed the taper of the same shaft. WOW what a difference in the hit. This are the facts of an experiment that I feel is as fair as I can make it. My obsevations are based on 23 years of cue making & experimenting to find out just what happens when parts of the cue are altered. Maybe you have more than 23 years of this kind of testing. Please send me your test results & I will gladly alter my opinion...JER

 

[jasonlaus]

Because...

1. Hit is subjective.

3. Joint materials may be different- that may affect the hit.

4. Possible discrepancies in the length/weight/balance point of the cues.

1. Yes hit is subjective....BUT I"M THE SAME PERSON IN BOTH TESTS.

3.Thank you for agreeing with me:thumbup: obviously the Butt affects HIT

4.Thank you for agreeing AGAIN.:thumbup:

Obviously more than the shaft, tip, and ferrule affect HIT.

As far as your theory on preconceived notions... this isn't the only time I have switched shafts between cues, everytime it has been a different hit. But you already agree that it should be, as they all probably have a little something different about the BUTT.

 

[jasonlaus]

Maybe the handle wood in your other cue is not a very tight-grained wood.

So you agree that the hit is determined by the whole cue and not just the tip, shaft, ferrule???????

 

[jasonlaus]

I do not have any axe to grind & yes I stand by every word I said. You can not compare apples & oranges. I feel that HIT is something that is constantly reminding us of something that is a subjective thing. Your cue butts may of diferent weights or balance points. My experiments have been with the SAME butt & the same shaft. I 1st turned the butt & shaft & played with this cue. Then I changed the ferrule material. I played with it & noticed a different feel. Then I changed the taper of the same shaft. WOW what a difference in the hit. This are the facts of an experiment that I feel is as fair as I can make it. My obsevations are based on 23 years of cue making & experimenting to find out just what happens when parts of the cue are altered. Maybe you have more than 23 years of this kind of testing. Please send me your test results & I will gladly alter my opinion...JER

Yes I/we(probably/mostly everybody)probably for those of you who would Red Rep somebody over saying everybody-do not include yourself in everybody<--disclaimer. would agree changing the shaft, ferrule, tip will change the HIT. SO will changing the Joint, weight, balance point, wood, length of the Butt!!!!!!
I'm trying to give this guy the correct info....and that is everyting matters in the HIT of a cue. Now you can get up here and beat your chest all you want about making cues since 86 or 23 years or whatever, my observations are from playing pool for over 30 years with high end to low end cues-Szam(both) Searing, Southwest, Mottey, Haley etc down to Players, cuetech, Mali you get the idea.
I don't have to have 23 years of building cues to FEEL how they play.
If you will admit that the Butt plays as important part of how the cue HITS/FEELS I will drop it.
BTW I don't appreciate your inference that because I don't build cues your word is Gold and mine doesn't mean anything... WHERE DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU FIT IN ON THE CUEBUILDING LIST FROM BEST TO WORST?????
I WILL BE LOOKING YOU UP TO SEE WHAT YOUR CUES SELL FOR MAYBE THAT WILL GIVE ME AN IDEA ON YOUR OPINION. OH THAT'S RIGHT I ALREADY HAVE ONE.
HAVE A NICE DAY:grin-square:

 

[jasonlaus]

I've been thinking about what makes up "the ultimate" playing cue, Now this is all my theory- so I could be all wrong, but I want to get other opinions. It seems to me that you would want a cue that resonates like it was one piece of wood. But in the real world, hauling around a one piece cue would be cumbersome- so this is obviously why we have 2 piece cues.
-
--Most Shafts- to my knowledge are built from one piece of wood
-
--Most Butts- to my knowledge are built from at least 3 seperate pieces of wood(forearm/handle/heel) that are bolted or screwed together. Now this is what doesn't make sense to me. Why would you want to take 3 seperate pieces and try to line them up to make them perfectly straight and add weight to the butt with the bolts that attach the 3 seperate pieces. It seems to me that the butt could not resonate as one piece of wood. It would be three pieces of wood with two or more concentrations of weight(the bolts)- all resonating differently as you strike the cue.:scratchhead:
-
-Other things that I think might be potential problems are:
-multiple pieces screwed together with flat face joints would affect the strength of the butt
-alignment of the 3 pieces would be difficult, especially with structural points and I would imagine that the alignment of the joint pin and the shaft is more difficult.
-
-All of this makes me wonder- why not play with a very simple one piece butt. It seems like all of the work that goes into a elaborate custom butt just complicates the playability? :scratchhead:

Where's Eddie Wheat when you need him??:thumbup:

 

[jasonlaus]

Yes I/we(probably/mostly everybody)probably for those of you who would Red Rep somebody over saying everybody-do not include yourself in everybody<--disclaimer. would agree changing the shaft, ferrule, tip will change the HIT. SO will changing the Joint, weight, balance point, wood, length of the Butt!!!!!!
I'm trying to give this guy the correct info....and that is everyting matters in the HIT of a cue. Now you can get up here and beat your chest all you want about making cues since 86 or 23 years or whatever, my observations are from playing pool for over 30 years with high end to low end cues-Szam(both) Searing, Southwest, Mottey, Haley etc down to Players, cuetech, Mali you get the idea.
I don't have to have 23 years of building cues to FEEL how they play.
If you will admit that the Butt plays as important part of how the cue HITS/FEELS I will drop it.
BTW I don't appreciate your inference that because I don't build cues your word is Gold and mine doesn't mean anything... WHERE DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU FIT IN ON THE CUEBUILDING LIST FROM BEST TO WORST?????
I WILL BE LOOKING YOU UP TO SEE WHAT YOUR CUES SELL FOR MAYBE THAT WILL GIVE ME AN IDEA ON YOUR OPINION. OH THAT'S RIGHT I ALREADY HAVE ONE.
HAVE A NICE DAY:grin-square:

All I hear is crickets over here too. Your first post I heard DON DA DA pictured you in a cape with a big BH(blackheart) on your chest, hands on your hips, tights(ick), but now I hear nothing still waiting on your response from above post.

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

I accidently posted in the wrong thread.

 

[pocketspeed]

All I hear is crickets over here too. Your first post I heard DON DA DA pictured you in a cape with a big BH(blackheart) on your chest, hands on your hips, tights(ick), but now I hear nothing still waiting on your response from above post.

just curious about where you fit on a list of cue makers? how many cues have you made? what do you actually know about cue making. i really dont understand why we always have to knock the professionals on this forum. pro players, cue makers... theres always someone in this forum who wants to just be a jerk and make the pros not post here anymore.

brian

 

[jasonlaus]

just curious about where you fit on a list of cue makers? how many cues have you made? what do you actually know about cue making. i really dont understand why we always have to knock the professionals on this forum. pro players, cue makers... theres always someone in this forum who wants to just be a jerk and make the pros not post here anymore.

brian

If you read my post you would know why. His comments are a joke, the idea is to give CORRECT information not false. If you honestly think changing the Butt of a Cue has no bearing on how it plays you need to call a cuemaker that actually knows what he is talking about.
He insulted me by basically saying his opinion is the only one that mattered because he has been a "cuemaker" for 23 years, HAVE YOU SEEN HIS CUES??????
BTW I have discussed Cuemaking with a number of HIGHEND Cuemakers and this gentleman does not fit in that category.
As far as being a jerk, if that's the way you see it open your eyes. Here's a question for ya.... If a guy has been playing pool for 23 years does that make him a PRO???? Would you take his advice as gospel when it comes to pool??? I know there are hundreds/thousands-hundreds of thousands of people playing pool for over 20 years that can't play a lick. Doing something for a long time doesn't mean they are doing it correctly, or have the knowledge to do it correctly.

 

[pocketspeed]

If you read my post you would know why. His comments are a joke, the idea is to give CORRECT information not false. If you honestly think changing the Butt of a Cue has no bearing on how it plays you need to call a cuemaker that actually knows what he is talking about.
He insulted me by basically saying his opinion is the only one that mattered because he has been a "cuemaker" for 23 years, HAVE YOU SEEN HIS CUES??????
BTW I have discussed Cuemaking with a number of HIGHEND Cuemakers and this gentleman does not fit in that category.
As far as being a jerk, if that's the way you see it open your eyes. Here's a question for ya.... If a guy has been playing pool for 23 years does that make him a PRO???? Would you take his advice as gospel when it comes to pool??? I know there are hundreds/thousands-hundreds of thousands of people playing pool for over 20 years that can't play a lick. Doing something for a long time doesn't mean they are doing it correctly, or have the knowledge to do it correctly.

wow i apologize. i stand humbly corrected. you sir are of course correct. thanks for setting me staight. so i wont listen to an experienced cuemaker. just you.

thanks

brian

 

[jasonlaus]

wow i apologize. i stand humbly corrected. you sir are of course correct. thanks for setting me staight. so i wont listen to an experienced cuemaker. just you.

thanks

brian

Use a little common sense or DON'T!!!!! Did you even read his post??????
Do you really believe changing the Butt will not change how a cue plays????
He clearly stated he changed the SHAFT ONLY and did not change the Butt. Thats like taking the front tires off a car then saying the front tires are the only thing that affects how a car drives and taking the rear tires off will almost have no effect on how a car drives.
BTW building cues for 23 years and they look like that:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

 

[8&snap]

Here are a couple of Butts that will answer all your questions, and if the price is right they can be at your house in an hour. You will know when they get close you will here their hoves on the pavement.

View attachment 89140

Take care

Reminds me of a line from a song "I feel the earth move under my feet"

 

[sygfrid]

-
-All of this makes me wonder- why not play with a very simple one piece butt. It seems like all of the work that goes into a elaborate custom butt just complicates the playability? :scratchhead:

I actually had, and still have, the same sentiments as you do when I was about to have my very 1st custom cue then. That's why for my 1st custom, I preferred it to be more on the "performance" side rather than on the aesthetics. As such, I chose to have a 1pc Purple Heart, which has a very good resonance, with with only the rings at AB as its main decoration

We believe that the more you add a foreign object onto the cue, the more that the "energy waves" or feedback are disrupted... even if that foreign object is glue! I think that a good example of this is using a dry string vs a wet string in the simple string-cup telephone setup, which do you think would transmit the sound waves better? We believe that it's very important to preserve or get as much feedback as much as possible as these "information" help in learning process subconsciously (these feedback/information travel to our brain through our fingers' sense of feel that why we are able to place the cb to our desired spot at the right speed without even thinking about it)

Going back, it took my cue maker roughly 15 months to complete the cue. He said that he had to be very careful in turning the Purple Heart down as any pressures on the wood could warp it as it's harder to keep a 1pc 29.5" wood straight than a 3-pc one especially during construction. My cue was naturally balanced (no cores, weight bolts, etc) and was paired with a very stiff 12.75mm old-growth maple (others say that it was already like a break cue)

The long, meticulous construction could be quite frustrating and the simple design may not be really appealing that's why many cue makers and consumers prefer 3-pc cues. Moreover, many say that different woods have different characteristics just as we have different preferences in the characteristics of our "ideal" cues. As for me, even if I've acquired other cues after I'd gotten my very 1st custom cue, I still find myself using my 1pc Purple Heart as my main player because I love everything about: its very stiff hit, great resonance, and beautiful high pitch.

The pic of my PH cue is on my signature by the way :wink:

 

[JoeyInCali]

So you agree that the hit is determined by the whole cue and not just the tip, shaft, ferrule???????

The hit is determined by the WHOLE cue.
A butt with .840" joint and 1.250" bottom is not going to hit the same as a butt with parabolic taper.
A butt with a cheap low grade maple handle is not going to hit the same as one with tight-grained maple handle or purpleheart handle.
You ever run into a cue which just does not have not much cueball action even though the tip is new?

 

[jasonlaus]

The hit is determined by the WHOLE cue.
A butt with .840" joint and 1.250" bottom is not going to hit the same as a butt with parabolic taper.
A butt with a cheap low grade maple handle is not going to hit the same as one with tight-grained maple handle or purpleheart handle.
You ever run into a cue which just does not have not much cueball action even though the tip is new?

Finally!!!! somebody rational.
Thank you.