That would be too much like RIGHT !
Life after APA
- Thread starter rburgoyne
- Start date
That would be too much like RIGHT !
A lot of good comments in here. I never expected to get rich off of playing APA, nor do I expect it if I start doing just tournaments or gambling. Pool is my hobby and I love the sport so I play. I just looked at it as I can spend $15 a night to play double jeopardy on league or spend that $15 on entering a local tournament. If i place in the tournament, I will have played more, and have some cash when I leave. If I play well in league, I may get a patch or two, and if my team does good enough I could get a plaque or chance to compete for Vegas. But just receiving the same old plaques and patches that I have too many of is just ridiculous. I mean, what can one person do with 10 or more 9 on the break patches anyway? I actually quit collecting them. What is the point? They are too small for coasters, and not soft enough to make a quilt out of. And plaques,between me and my wife we have about 20 of them, and from being on the same team there are a lot of duplicates. Why would we want to hang 20 plaques that are all either green or blue on our walls. They all look the same except for dates and some names! It just seems like the money could be spent in better ways. Hell, a trophy would be a refresher over the damn plaques.
My favorite comment by far has to be in reference to why is there a 23 rule if the "Equalizer Handicap System" is promoted to level the playing field so anyone can win. The 23 rule is there to force players that get better to recruit new players to make handicap. Plain and simple, that is it. Its actually a brilliant business move that has obviously helped grow the APA and has introduced a lot of new players into the sport. However, it does suck having to break up teams, and it does feel like you get penalized for a team that gets better. I don't like that aspect of it at all, but if it helps grow the sport than so be it.
As far as other leagues, APA is the only league left in Raleigh. It is huge too, over 2,000 members, and the city tournaments use 2 pool halls and take 3 days. We had TAP league which fizzled out after a couple of sessions a few years back, and we had another league based out of Charlotte called "8 Ball Express" that we chased out of Raleigh. My team was paying in the finals in Charlotte for $10K against a team of all 3's and one 4. Their 3's we outshooting my 5's. One masse'd the cue from being hooked on the bottom rail to make the 9 ball in with no time outs, another one of them did 3 long rail banks in a row, and they were winning in 0 to 2 innings max. The league owner/operator and a local "judge" both watched this and said they shot like 3's. I would have hated to see their 4 play who had just moved down from being a 5! Needless to say our team and almost every other team in the Raleigh area quit. The following session there were just not enough teams left and 8-Ball Express has not been back to Raleigh since.
All in all though, it is still just not fun for me anymore. I use to always look forward to league nights, but lately its more of a headache being there than fun. Too many people are no shows, then when you have your team there the other team is missing players. One day I may return to play league, who knows what the future will hold. I just know I want to get away from it for now.
My favorite comment by far has to be in reference to why is there a 23 rule if the "Equalizer Handicap System" is promoted to level the playing field so anyone can win. The 23 rule is there to force players that get better to recruit new players to make handicap. Plain and simple, that is it. Its actually a brilliant business move that has obviously helped grow the APA and has introduced a lot of new players into the sport. However, it does suck having to break up teams, and it does feel like you get penalized for a team that gets better. I don't like that aspect of it at all, but if it helps grow the sport than so be it.
As far as other leagues, APA is the only league left in Raleigh. It is huge too, over 2,000 members, and the city tournaments use 2 pool halls and take 3 days. We had TAP league which fizzled out after a couple of sessions a few years back, and we had another league based out of Charlotte called "8 Ball Express" that we chased out of Raleigh. My team was paying in the finals in Charlotte for $10K against a team of all 3's and one 4. Their 3's we outshooting my 5's. One masse'd the cue from being hooked on the bottom rail to make the 9 ball in with no time outs, another one of them did 3 long rail banks in a row, and they were winning in 0 to 2 innings max. The league owner/operator and a local "judge" both watched this and said they shot like 3's. I would have hated to see their 4 play who had just moved down from being a 5! Needless to say our team and almost every other team in the Raleigh area quit. The following session there were just not enough teams left and 8-Ball Express has not been back to Raleigh since.
All in all though, it is still just not fun for me anymore. I use to always look forward to league nights, but lately its more of a headache being there than fun. Too many people are no shows, then when you have your team there the other team is missing players. One day I may return to play league, who knows what the future will hold. I just know I want to get away from it for now.
A dollar is not taking anything away from anybody in this day and age and like you said,"we should get the leagues together to promote these events." A dollar is nothing for people who spend money at pool.
I think advertising the intentions to all the leagues that pool players as a whole wouldn't mind it as we are all in the same boat of trying to promote the sport on the professional side. You also say that, "the players need to be the ones to make it happen". The amateur players are players too and make up the largest base. So,let the grass roots players decide. If all it would take is a dollar to solve the solution, that's not taking anything away from anyone, it's only adding. This also would make it easier for everyone to relax and do the things like exibitions, etc. It's time to offer up a solution from within, not outward and it's right there, if you choose.
It's time to fly forward . .
Canwin
I think advertising the intentions to all the leagues that pool players as a whole wouldn't mind it as we are all in the same boat of trying to promote the sport on the professional side. You also say that, "the players need to be the ones to make it happen". The amateur players are players too and make up the largest base. So,let the grass roots players decide. If all it would take is a dollar to solve the solution, that's not taking anything away from anyone, it's only adding. This also would make it easier for everyone to relax and do the things like exibitions, etc. It's time to offer up a solution from within, not outward and it's right there, if you choose.
It's time to fly forward . .
Canwin
concerning the APA IMO i can live with the 23 rule although not my favorite rule. but when you force players to be handicapped and possibly match up against a low SL I think the APA should get rid of the any pocket rule, I mean if a 7 has to play a 2 or a 3 its like a 6 to 2 race luck shots should not have a place in a situation like this. we all want to win and I hear constant comments about the any pocket a-hole rule. This is why i am not a fan of 9 ball as I can't recover from someones lucky unintentional shot Just my opinion
6 to 2 or 7 to 2 is tough, but seriously, when was the last time you saw a 2 or a 3 beat a 7 with luck shots? Can you recall three times that it has happened? When luck comes into play in these matches, it's usually in the form of an early 8 or an 8-Ball scratch. Even on the rare occasion where something like that does happen, it's not the end of the world. It probably just made the low-skilled player's week, or even month. Let them have their day, because the vast majority of the time luck shots will not affect the outcome of such an uneven match.
well I used to be a 7 I am no longer as I dont have the time to play nowadays so the 6 to 2 races rarely come up but as I said Personally i dont overcome luck (slop) very easily (why I dont play 9 ball) just last week I played a guy who I locked up pretty well with a safety. because It was not to my benifit to run out any further and the 3 i was playing says "oh well, when in doubt just blast them" and rails a 2 rail kick just to get a good hit the object ball goes off of at least 2 of my balls and goes in and of course the whole team is ooing and aweing
I understand this is my weakness because I cant overcome this but after that sh!t shot my mood was shot and the whole match went down the toilet.....will i live sure but still can live w/o the luck, it seems to happen to me ALOT (i actually have a post about this back in the pages)
I understand this is my weakness because I cant overcome this but after that sh!t shot my mood was shot and the whole match went down the toilet.....will i live sure but still can live w/o the luck, it seems to happen to me ALOT (i actually have a post about this back in the pages)
Just in case it hasnt been said, I would venture to say that most people who hang up their APA jersey will see an improvement in their game.
Ah some more APA propaganda
lets not be confused the apa is a business and like every business it is in it for a profit no more no less and at the end of the day thats all that matters,
the 23 rule designed to expand the pyramid is a concept that builds from the bottom up , the theory is by raising players up it forces them to look for low level players and the best way to do that is bring in new players
This would explain why there are so many 7s now that would not even be good 6s 10yrs ago when being a 7 meant something, unlike tap where it still does,
The notion that the APA is the only fair league to play in and all others are full of APA cheaters who got caught cheating is ridiculous to say the least
and has someone come up with something better , well that would be open for interpretation , by a pure money back in player pocket chances no probably not, but for the players and teams TAP is shooter friendly the 25 rule allows teams to have room for players to go up promoting less sandbagging and also for teams to stay together longer, not good for TAP but good for the players and hey the rally in the Valley in Valley Forge is the best venue in the country from a pure pool shooting perspective
Also the notion that the stronger player has a bigger advantage in a short race could not be farther from the truth, the longer the race the more separation as the better player often has another gear that's harnessed by a short race
At the end of the day the APA is a family type league good for the beginner and intermediate player but not so good for better player
I am often in regional tournaments where they kid u about being a APA player
its a market they are missing because of thier lack of courtship for the better players so they end up dropping out seaking a alternitive to bring thier game to the next level
onestroke
I played APA for about 20 years. Also played in TAP and in a non-handicapped “men’s league.” I no longer play in any formal league. here is why.
1. Really sick of sandbagging and all the stupid arguments often between rude red necks who have had too much to drink.
2. Why play in a league where it costs $7.00 per night to play for about one hour, three out of four weeks and get nothing in return. Yeah I went to Vegas but it still does not recover what I spent over the years. $7.00 per night is the minimum it is more like $25.00+ per night with food, drinks, friends, etc
3. The 23 rule wrecked all kinds of stuff. Friends forced off the team, people feeling the need to move, arguments. In 20 years there were probably five years that I got to play with the team mates I wanted to play with. The rest of the time one or more of the players had to move to another team primarily due to the 23 rule. I was ambivalent about playing every year for many years but always went back for friends and to fill out the team.
4. I played in leagues as much for the social factor as the quasi team competition. Half the places we played I would not walk into if it were not for the league play. About 1/3rd of them I would not take my wife to and usually came home early.
5. Basically fed up with the whole thing. Friends have asked me to play APA here in Florida and I said "no."
Now I play in daily tournaments and shoot for about 2 ½ hours a day five days a week. Much more pool playing and people who are a lot of fun to be around. Beats the leagues by a mile. Unfortunately you would have to move to an active retirement community to play in our daily tournaments. We also have a traveling team and play weekly against several other active retirement communities but with no fees. To get on the team there are try outs and the best six players represent the community. Oh yeah we play on 9’ Gold Crowns. Any community that wants to have a team has to have four tables that are at least 8' and there are 10 - 12 teams in the "league" every year.
I have thought for years that private clubs owned by the membership, similar to a golf course is a feasible idea. Now I know it is true because I live where we have one. BTW two of my old team mates have moved to the same community in Florida and we will be playing together every day.
There are alternatives.
1. Really sick of sandbagging and all the stupid arguments often between rude red necks who have had too much to drink.
2. Why play in a league where it costs $7.00 per night to play for about one hour, three out of four weeks and get nothing in return. Yeah I went to Vegas but it still does not recover what I spent over the years. $7.00 per night is the minimum it is more like $25.00+ per night with food, drinks, friends, etc
3. The 23 rule wrecked all kinds of stuff. Friends forced off the team, people feeling the need to move, arguments. In 20 years there were probably five years that I got to play with the team mates I wanted to play with. The rest of the time one or more of the players had to move to another team primarily due to the 23 rule. I was ambivalent about playing every year for many years but always went back for friends and to fill out the team.
4. I played in leagues as much for the social factor as the quasi team competition. Half the places we played I would not walk into if it were not for the league play. About 1/3rd of them I would not take my wife to and usually came home early.
5. Basically fed up with the whole thing. Friends have asked me to play APA here in Florida and I said "no."
Now I play in daily tournaments and shoot for about 2 ½ hours a day five days a week. Much more pool playing and people who are a lot of fun to be around. Beats the leagues by a mile. Unfortunately you would have to move to an active retirement community to play in our daily tournaments. We also have a traveling team and play weekly against several other active retirement communities but with no fees. To get on the team there are try outs and the best six players represent the community. Oh yeah we play on 9’ Gold Crowns. Any community that wants to have a team has to have four tables that are at least 8' and there are 10 - 12 teams in the "league" every year.
I have thought for years that private clubs owned by the membership, similar to a golf course is a feasible idea. Now I know it is true because I live where we have one. BTW two of my old team mates have moved to the same community in Florida and we will be playing together every day.
There are alternatives.
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We'll come back to this one later...
Ah some more anti-APA propaganda
The 23 rule is the only proven way to keep teams from becoming dominant AND give beginners a chance. 25 doesn't do it - TAP has a problem with dominant teams. And since 25 in TAP is really 30 in APA, there's no need for beginners at all.
Perhaps just having different "divisions" for teams with a higher total skill level. Just off the top of my head, say, oh, I don't know, how about "Open", "Masters", and "Grand Masters"? Be careful with that, pretty soon you're gonna be adding another division between "Open" and "Masters" (let's call that one "Advanced") because some teams are dominating in the "Open" division but have no chance in the "Masters" division, and that's causing players and teams to quit. But when you add that "Advanced" division you're gonna force some teams to restructure. Wait a minute - did you just force teams to restructure, teams of friends who have been playing together for a long time? Why that's, that's, SACRILEGE. You're only doing that to get more participation! Brilliant business model, motivated solely by greed, right? There's no concern at all about providing a structure where everyone can compete, is there? That's just propaganda, koolaid.
lets not be confused TAP is a business and like every business it is in it for a profit no more no less and at the end of the day thats all that matters
Oh, and how many beginners do they bring into the sport every year?
I think you misunderstood my point. I was talking about increasing the spot to make the 7-2 match an even money bet. The race isn't any longer for the weaker player. They still need only 2, but the other guy now needs 20. You can't tell me it's easier to get to 20 than it is to get to 7, because you have to get to 7 on your way to 20! There just isn't enough time to play 20-2 races.
I'd say that's almost accurate. We have things for the better players, like the Masters format and the U.S. Amateur, but the U.S. Amateur is a once-a-year thing that ANYONE can play in and the Masters format is hard to sustain because of the dominant team problem that the 23 rule addresses.
I would say APA is not so good for SOME better players. There are some really good players who get something out of APA league play besides competition or game improvement. Some really enjoy the opportunities it gives them to coach. Others use it as an opportunity to enjoy the game with a spouse or family members who maybe aren't so good. Not every good player has to be super-competitive all the time.
It's really hard to be everything to everybody. Sometimes you have to choose a target market. APA's target market is recreational players who want to have fun with friends and family playing pool. You don't have to be a bad player to fall into that group, but if you're a good player you may have to choose which friends and family you play with.
I agree about how many beginners the tap brings in, since I was a7 in tap and am a 7 in the apa , I am speaking from a higher level view point,
I know TAP does not bring in the beginner level as often as APA does, part of that is they are not as valuable, almost every APA team would love to have a 2 not the same case in TAP. yes it does hurt the new player input
but it creates a better quality in the teams across the board and not such a watered down league ,and not as many 1-1/2 hour 2-2 races ,
there are many business that expanding is not at the head of the list, have good management and profits will still come
Dont tell me the APA does not have dominate teams I no more that one captain that has been to Vegas double digits , I dont know any TAP captains that can claim the same,
I would say the insertion of the master type league is offering some hope for better players in the future,
I would like to see a little more available cash in there monthly tour stops and this would help fill a void for the better players, I would also like to see the tuneys go to full handicap races, making it a good practice venue for those who shoot open turneys where the races are min 7 games
I agree that the APA target player is the recreational player, but they are leaving a lot of money on the table by not being more friendly to the upper level market which is growing day by day
I know sometimes its nice to be the big fish in the small pond which I am
but every now and then Nemo likes to swim in the open ocean and not get swallowed up by sharks creating a more competitive atmosphere for players like me ,by being better prepared it would make the trip in open waters less worrisome
onestroke
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Are you from Frederick MD.?
No Chesapeake beach , played in the rockville and laurel area, and play turneys around the area including Fredrick, at all star billiards
onestroke
Well I agree the "23 rule" is a problem, it has some good points. It forces teams to play weaker players. It prevents teams from loading up with all A players. Sandbagging would go on regardless, it happens in tournaments and in the gambling world.
I think without the "23 rule" the APA would first become dominated by teams with strong players, then cause the weaker players to quit in frustration, then result in the demise of the APA. It may not be an ideal rule, but it helps create a place for true amateur players.
BTW, I don't play APA to go to Vegas though I must concede most of my teammates do. I play because I want to win. I want to go to the nationals, but I sure wish they weren't in Vegas. If you don't drink or gamble Vegas gets boring in a hurry.
I am not playing APA this session, but I am sure that I will again. I play out of Frederick, MD and have been fortunate enough to make it to Vegas several times over the last few years.
Unfortunately, I have also had to split off and break up all of the teams that I was on. My most enjoyable times were when my 2 sons were able to play on the teams with me, and we all made it to Vegas together a few times. Then, they moved up in S/L, and we could no longer play together.
Right now, I only play on a TAP league team out of Hagerstown (where I live now), and I also play on a Senior's league out of All Star Billiards in Frederick on Fridays. I have the most fun on the Senior's league. We play a Master's race, and the guys are handicapped, but it is a much more honest handicap system, and it is all individual, so the only thing that matters is the spot.
I also played on a Master's team out of All Star for a few sessions, but I had a few health issues and did not have the endurance to play as many nights as I was playing. I liked the Master's league a lot.
I just like to shoot pool, so I am sure that I will be on a league where ever I am. At least it assures me that I will get to match up against someone on a regular basis.
No, not all people like the APA or TAP, or BCA, or VNEA, etc. The 23 rule and sandbagging are real issues. IMO, a lot of the sandbagging issues could be resolved with an in-house review board of some of the house's senior players.
Joe
Unfortunately, I have also had to split off and break up all of the teams that I was on. My most enjoyable times were when my 2 sons were able to play on the teams with me, and we all made it to Vegas together a few times. Then, they moved up in S/L, and we could no longer play together.
Right now, I only play on a TAP league team out of Hagerstown (where I live now), and I also play on a Senior's league out of All Star Billiards in Frederick on Fridays. I have the most fun on the Senior's league. We play a Master's race, and the guys are handicapped, but it is a much more honest handicap system, and it is all individual, so the only thing that matters is the spot.
I also played on a Master's team out of All Star for a few sessions, but I had a few health issues and did not have the endurance to play as many nights as I was playing. I liked the Master's league a lot.
I just like to shoot pool, so I am sure that I will be on a league where ever I am. At least it assures me that I will get to match up against someone on a regular basis.
No, not all people like the APA or TAP, or BCA, or VNEA, etc. The 23 rule and sandbagging are real issues. IMO, a lot of the sandbagging issues could be resolved with an in-house review board of some of the house's senior players.
Joe
league
What a whiner, sounds like the APA ended up eating you for dessert in the end. lol go manage another bar or peddle some of your crappy cues. what a joke, boyyyyyy
What a whiner, sounds like the APA ended up eating you for dessert in the end. lol go manage another bar or peddle some of your crappy cues. what a joke, boyyyyyy
tournaments
You added twenty bucks to the pot and that is what really brought out the players. give us a freaking break, Tournaments never have and never will consistently bring in players or make a bar or pool room money.
The so called "better players" don't spend money when they play in tournaments for the most part and when they lose they can't get out the door fast enough.
I can see why you don't operate a room anymore, good luck with spinning wood.
You added twenty bucks to the pot and that is what really brought out the players. give us a freaking break, Tournaments never have and never will consistently bring in players or make a bar or pool room money.
The so called "better players" don't spend money when they play in tournaments for the most part and when they lose they can't get out the door fast enough.
I can see why you don't operate a room anymore, good luck with spinning wood.
life after
Your little U.S.M.C sign, let's us know what kind of little liberal whiner you must be. Those misguided children as you say protect your worthless ass every day so you can be a whiner. as usual the success of someone else is something you left wing idiots just can't stand. The best thing you can do is donate at the tournaments you mention. you have found a great forum to ***** and complain as there is a nice little group that will welcome your negative trash and support you all the way.
Sounds like YOU might be the problem if your own players don't show up on a regular basis. doesn't look like you will have to worry
about playing much longer in the league, I will appreciate you donation to my winnings at the next tournament. lol, you whiner
Your little U.S.M.C sign, let's us know what kind of little liberal whiner you must be. Those misguided children as you say protect your worthless ass every day so you can be a whiner. as usual the success of someone else is something you left wing idiots just can't stand. The best thing you can do is donate at the tournaments you mention. you have found a great forum to ***** and complain as there is a nice little group that will welcome your negative trash and support you all the way.
Sounds like YOU might be the problem if your own players don't show up on a regular basis. doesn't look like you will have to worry
about playing much longer in the league, I will appreciate you donation to my winnings at the next tournament. lol, you whiner
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Yes they do protect me, and they protect your kind as well. I proudly served in the Marines for over 9 years so I am also one of the "misguided ones" that allows the freedom for you and others to sit on the sidelines and run your mouth. Just what good have you ever done for your country?
The only one whining here is you, grow up and enjoy the RED.
Are his cues really that Crappy? Have you ever seen one in person or shot with one? Are they better than the cues you make? Are you a better pool hall owner than he was? You are very judgmental for someone without a clue.