Linen vs. All other wraps

Dave in Boston said:
This has to be one of the dumbest topics I have every seen. Sorry Koop this arguement makes aboslutely no sense. If you want to keep this up why dont everyone just go back to one peice house cues because having a two peice makes you miss more often. Same stupid idea
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Dave,

Not it's not dumb. What I want to know is why anyone would say a linen wrap would reduce accuracy. That is what was said and I want some proof because it doesn't make sense to me.
 
JoeyInCali said:
What if the linen wrap causes you to deathgrip the cue?
Btw, all makers know you grip hand gets better feedback with bare wood.
Also when you go to long wars with your cue, linen wrap and leather wrap can get sticky and there's not much you can do on the spot.
With bare wood, just wipe it off and put some powder in there if necessary.
You can also apply emergency marking tape when the weather is too cold for you like Efren did at DCC.

I said all makers know bare wood gives the better feedback.
I said WHAT IF LINEN wrap causes you to death grip the cue?
Notice the question mark?
It does to some people. I didn't say all.
Bob is the one who said it factly.
There is no burden of proof in his part b/c there is no trial here and he's not the prosecutor.
If you don't believe him, don't.
If you don't believe Varney, don't.
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STAY WITH ME JOEY.

This didn't start because of feedback. It started because linen was stated to be less accurate. If you don't want to mix apples with oranges then stay on track and don't start talking about feedback. Tell me, with proof, how anyone can say that linen reduces accuracy.

I've seen an awful lot of beating around the bush but not a single decent argument as to linen and accuracy. Feedback, sure, I'll give you that, but accuracy no.

BELIEVE. Is this way of trying to shut me up so you can keep spewing this nonsense? I wasn't the one who made a definitive claim. I am the one who asked for proof and unless you can give some my advice would be to stick to arguing things you can prove.

And, if you are not arguing that linen is less accurate then why do you keep trying justify it? Twist it how you will but my reading comprehension is just fine and I'm also REALLY DAMN GOOD at reading between lines.

And with that, have a nice weekend everyone. I am outta here!
 
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TellsItLikeItIs said:
Dave, it may not seem a worthwhile discussion to you since you're more than likely an advanced player, but consider the new player and his or her take on the matter when they read claims like this.

People tend to truly believe what they read on the internet simply because they see it in writing. We all know that doesn't make it fact though.
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And this is exactly why I am being so adamant. It ain't for me because nobodies duping me into believing this nonsense. It is for the uninformed who otherwise may actually lend some credence to it.

Thanks and, oh yeah, now it's weekend time. :D
 
Linen vs. whatever.......

****** It has been stated, without doubt, that linen wraps cause players to be less accurate. It was also stated that ALL cuemakers know this to be fact.

I would like to hear from you, the cuemakers, as to whether or not you believe this to be true and if so, what kind of testing was done to prove it?*****

Hey guys........Normally stay out this things... but couldn't resist this time.
After reading the responses I thought of one thing not mentioned that ALL cuemakers should know. Cutting a wrap groove in a cue is going to change the cue. When you take a .020 cut out of the butt for the wrap area you are taking .040 off the butt section. This is going to change the way the cue responds. How much? ........another discussion perhaps as I try not to wander off the orginal question.
Common sense tells me .......less wood=less mass=more flex.
Not so much the actual type of wrap used as the construction methods used to install the wrap.
3C guys generally play with an unwrapped cue.......why? because they are prettier!......No, they're a stiffer cue for a more accurate hard and long shot.
If they want to change the grip they'll use a "condom" cover or I actually seen one cue with tape in the grip area!
As far as *linen* making the cue less accurate.........I don't see it.
Different grips for players = different material used.
Better comfort level for each player.

Back to building.......
Dave
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
The goal of some cuemakers has always been to make a two piece hit like a one piece. It'll never happen imo, but we keep on trying to get there don't we ;)
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Excuse me...its been done. No problem. You want a 2pc that hits & feels exactly like a 1pc...place your order!;)
Wood to wood joint sneaky with a glass G10 pin. The glass pin allows the joint to flex and feel just like a one piece cue. How many would you like to order?;)
 
Varney Cues said:
Excuse me...its been done. No problem. You want a 2pc that hits & feels exactly like a 1pc...place your order!;)
Wood to wood joint sneaky with a glass G10 pin. The glass pin allows the joint to flex and feel just like a one piece cue. How many would you like to order?;)
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Kevin, please don't take this the wrong way BUT, are you saying you cornered the market on making 2 piece cues that hit like 1 piece but others such as Barry Szamboti, Joel Hercek, etc... haven't? Am I reading into this too much?

Thanks,
Koop
 
Varney Cues said:
Excuse me...its been done. No problem. You want a 2pc that hits & feels exactly like a 1pc...place your order!;)
Wood to wood joint sneaky with a glass G10 pin. The glass pin allows the joint to flex and feel just like a one piece cue. How many would you like to order?;)
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OK.. What if I don't agree the hit is the same? Is there a refund program? Or better yet is there quantifiable proof your statement is accurate?

One last thing.. do you think the would be joint area of a one piece cue flexes?

One last last thing.. who the hell says the hit of a one piece cue is perfect? To what extreme do we measure "one piece cue"? What if its got a full splice? Does the ferrule count as a "piece"?

JV
 
Koop said:
Kevin, please don't take this the wrong way BUT, are you saying you cornered the market on making 2 piece cues that hit like 1 piece but others such as Barry Szamboti, Joel Hercek, etc... haven't? Am I reading into this too much?

Thanks,
Koop
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I cornered nothing. Anyone...Gold, Gilbert, Capone, Josey...anyone can make one. Simple full splice, true wood to wood sneaky, with a G10 pin. That is if the "hit" of a 1pc is what you desire. Some like that...some don't. Point is...if you were blindfolded and hit balls, but weren't allowed to see the cue....you'd have an impossible time telling which cue was uncut vs. G10. ;)
 
getting back to the wrap question. imo it makes no difference as long as you don't spread oil on them.:eek: the wraps that is ;) it's all personal preference.
 
Varney Cues said:
I cornered nothing. Anyone...Gold, Gilbert, Capone, Josey...anyone can make one. Simple full splice, true wood to wood sneaky, with a G10 pin. That is if the "hit" of a 1pc is what you desire. Some like that...some don't. Point is...if you were blindfolded and hit balls, but weren't allowed to see the cue....you'd have an impossible time telling which cue was uncut vs. G10. ;)
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i think that is the case blind testing with allot of makers cues. the desired hit for allot of pro's is not always to the one piece variety. there are many complex factors the determine a great hit. a one piece cue is not the only benchmark by no means.
 
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my almost two cents worth

i believe phil capelle(sp?) did a study(lots of studies) in one of his books about the different wrap materials including no wrap. i believe he threw around bunches of phrases including coefficient of friction. pretty technical- cork wraps rated pretty high iifc as did no wrap cues.
anybody have that book? mine did not find it's way home after loaning to a "friend". personally i have had an old schon since 1991. after years of playing the linen wrap was so worn/slick i had to grip tighter to shoot and felt accuracy was compomised(in addition to my already impaired ability). i did get it redone and it feels much better.
 
Cork matrix in neoprene (aka gasket material) has the nicest feel/function of any cue wrap material and it's not close IMO. I've had cork rubber on 2 cues. Cosmetically, the cue has to have some black or brown (I've seen/have 2 colors of the wrap material black and brown) to coordinate well with the wrap. Also, if you tend to not keep your cues, a cork wrap would really narrow the field of potential cue buyers.

Martin


woodyosborne said:
i believe phil capelle(sp?) did a study(lots of studies) in one of his books about the different wrap materials including no wrap. i believe he threw around bunches of phrases including coefficient of friction. pretty technical- cork wraps rated pretty high iifc as did no wrap cues.
anybody have that book? mine did not find it's way home after loaning to a "friend". personally i have had an old schon since 1991. after years of playing the linen wrap was so worn/slick i had to grip tighter to shoot and felt accuracy was compomised(in addition to my already impaired ability). i did get it redone and it feels much better.
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Koop said:
Dave,

Not it's not dumb. What I want to know is why anyone would say a linen wrap would reduce accuracy. That is what was said and I want some proof because it doesn't make sense to me.
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As to the accuracy question of different wraps and finishes, it's common knowledge the most slippery is pressed linen, the least, polyeurethane or equivalent, with leather and various skins falling between.

What is not definitive is a correlation between grip and accuracy. Lots of people say, the lighter the better. I don't agree, but neither should the grip be that taken to a baseball bat. Most snooker pros use a pretty solid grip, with no gap in the thumb to finger web. Other very accurate shooters using a firm grip include Rempe, Mizerak, Sigel and Allison Fisher. Manalo, Hohmann and Morris are a few of the modern "grippers." But Efren, Busta, and Santos certainly make a case for light grips.

I think what's a fair argument is, we want a grip without tension, whether it wraps or cradles the cue. If a slick finished cue affords a less slippery grip, it stands to reason it requires less pressure to hold securely, thus less tension. So I think Varney's contention that an unwrapped butt is more accurate is probably true, though admittedly unsubstantiated. Conversely, it's tough to make a case that a linen wrap is more accurate. I can think of no reason for that.
 
tedkaufman said:
So I think Varney's contention that an unwrapped butt is more accurate is probably true, though admittedly unsubstantiated. Conversely, it's tough to make a case that a linen wrap is more accurate. I can think of no reason for that.
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Hi Ted,

Those are some solid points and I appreciate your response. The problem is, admittedly by all of us, the fact that none of it can substantiated. This is the only reason I took such umbrage with the statement. As for linen being more accurate, I obviously never suggested that because it is my contention that the wrap has nothing to do with accuracy. People have their preferences and may feel as though they shoot better with a certain wrap but that doesn't mean they do. My contention is that it is more a comfort level than anything else.

Hell, the cue Mr. Webb is building me has a black leather wrap so I am certainly not pre-disposed to linen.

Kind regards,
Koop
 
Koop said:
Hi Ted,

Those are some solid points and I appreciate your response. The problem is, admittedly by all of us, the fact that none of it can substantiated. This is the only reason I took such umbrage with the statement. As for linen being more accurate, I obviously never suggested that because it is my contention that the wrap has nothing to do with accuracy. People have their preferences and may feel as though they shoot better with a certain wrap but that doesn't mean they do. My contention is that it is more a comfort level than anything else.

Hell, the cue Mr. Webb is building me has a black leather wrap so I am certainly not pre-disposed to linen.

Kind regards,
Koop
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How many world champ. have played with linen? To many to count!!! What wins games is hard work, heart and talent. NOT YOUR CUE WRAPED WITH LINEN OR NOT!
 
hotcues said:
How many world champ. have played with linen? To many to count!!! What wins games is hard work, heart and talent. NOT YOUR CUE WRAPED WITH LINEN OR NOT!
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Which was the whole point behind me starting this thread.

Thanks
 
Leather... it's ALL LEATHER baby! LEATHER LEATHER LEATHER is the wave of the FUTURE !!! LLLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAATTTTTTHHHHhHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR....

Ehh... which I will have 500 more pieces of for sale tomorrow. Watch for my post and pics.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
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