Loosey Goosey vs. Slow and Steady....

sidepocket7

sidepocket7

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, so last night I was playing the Ghost, race to 10, 9 ball, BIH after the break. In an effort to really try to up my ball runout count, I decide to play my shots/patterns in a much slower and mechanical style. Very methodical in my decision making. So, I break, and I am able to pocket an average of 3-6 balls pretty consistently through the 10 racks. My focus is super high, and I am trying to play for very close to pinpoint ideal position. After a while, I become frustrated with my break shot, not being able to drop a ball, and getting lousy layouts, only leading to very short ball runouts. So I say to myself, "Ahh, screw it, just have some fun."
Well, guess what happens next. I powder my hands, grab my break cue, and snap the cueball into the rack. I drop 4 balls. Squat the rock. Get my playing cue, and proceed to runout, getting shape on every ball. Next rack, a break, 2 balls drop. Cueball ends up a bit farther down table, but center. I runout with ease. Now I am amped up, feeling super fluid with the stroke, and putting balls down like they have eyes. So, whats the deal? The first ten racks, I am focused, checking my mechanics, trying very hard to play great, text-book style pool. Slowing down, and making well though out decisions on how to hit the cueball and get position on the next ball. In the following ten racks, I say screw it, get up, and play the game purely from a feel? perspective.
So, my question is, what does this mean? It feels really good to play like this, but Alot of what I read and see, tells me otherwise. Any insight would be great!!
 
Timothy Gallway talks about this in the Inner Game of Golf (Tennis). When you are freewheeling you are engaging more of the "unconscious" you. You are relying more on "instinct" and allowing the body to do what it is trained to do.

By playing methodically, you are engaging the conscious more. The brain and analytical take over. You can also end up "trying" too hard.

I've struggled with this all my pool playing days. The most demonstrable occasion occured at the Derby City Classic when during a match I could not run more than a few balls before missing or getting out of line. I could not get out even though it might be like connect the dots. After losing, I went to a practice table and could not miss.

Ideally, I now try and practice and play matches in a methodical matter. However, I also try and "let" my body do what it is trained to do. In order to play at your maximum potential, I believe that you have to try and practice and play the same....whether it is for fun or big money.

You also need to understand and control the adrenaline (fight and flight) response that manifests itself when the pressure is on.

My advice is to read Inner Game to give yourself a better understanding of what is going on. One last thing....Max Eberle uses the analogy of "threading a needle". It is much easier to thread a needle if you don't try. The minute you consciously "try" and get that thread through the hole, it becomes really tough....Food for thought.

Regards,

Doug
 
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There is some balance here. IMO, concious "slow" play is the best way to learn the patterns. Unconcious play will usually yield the best results, but I often am unsure if my skill improved after an unconcious session. . .Am I still making the same pattern mistakes?
 
Imo you need to condition your mind and body to play slow and precise. Loosy goosey is for fun and you will only beat the ones that you're suppose to beat anyway. As soon as some pressure is applied to you the first thing to go out the window is touch and feel and you're done if there's nothing to fall back on.

By conditioning yourself to play precise you're also training yourself to weather the storm when things are not going well. I myself will start with a slower pace and as I start to feel more comfortable my rhythm comes out without me having to force it out. This way your mind and body will find what is the correct pace for you.

Very few people have the natural ability to play the free wheeling style, people like Earl, SVB and others. These guys play that way because they know they are the better player. But even these guys will falter with their touch and feel when they start to take the heat.
 
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I've played speed pool with a buddy and just drilled in ugly cut after ugly cut. You can let your visual and muscle memory do all the work. It seems like magic. The thing is, there's a difference between taking time before you step into the shot, and taking time after.

I find the tradeoff is not worth it. You still need to take time analyzing the table and figuring out the best cue ball route. I can't imagine slowly analyzing the table to figure out the ideal path and position... and then just firing it in with 1 warmup stroke.

I'd say use common sense and watch the pros. How many of them seem to be playing fast and loose? To me, the vast majority appear to be playing at their natural pace or taking a little extra time. You know johnny or ralf could probably run a rack fast if they really wanted to. But that's not how they keep winning major championships.

I will admit it's fun to play that way. But don't let the fun experience fool you. If you're having fun playing pool you're doing something wrong and must correct it immediately.
 
nksmfamjp said:
There is some balance here. IMO, concious "slow" play is the best way to learn the patterns. Unconcious play will usually yield the best results, but I often am unsure if my skill improved after an unconcious session. . .Am I still making the same pattern mistakes?
Click to expand...

There are are two halves of the brain. The left hemisphere is the analytical side of the brain. It sets down the blue print planning of the shot intended.

The right hemisphere then executes the shot for the body as it controls the motor functions.

The problem that arises is in the fact that once we tap into the left hemisphere for direction it doesn't want to shut up. It will continually give you more ideas overloading the bandwidth the brain has to begin with. This can create doubt on the shot method you have chosen. Not because the other methods are better because most times they are not. The real reason is because the feedback your body is giving you is that the shot doesn't feel right. Why?

Here's my best analogy: The answer is our brains transmit data like a 56k modem. Lets assume you can play this game perfectly fine on the 56k modem when its not interrupted. But now your downloading the diagram to shot the shot and playing the game at the same time. This develops a lag in your game. Thus the feedback from your body is that it's not too confident as to the results of the shot about to be undertaken.

How do you shut up the left hemisphere and stop the download? The answer is simple. Pre-shot routines. A pre-shot routine helps to transition our thinking into the practiced physical steps we have repeated gone through time and again in the execution. It acts much like a command function that tells the left hemisphere it is done with its task.

Playing fast has abbreviated the left hemispheres input to be very short and sweet in Sidepockets case. Yet there will be moments you wish you would have thought it out. The pre-shot routine works nicely for those moments.

So to answer NKS's question directly. If your running more balls yes an improvement is being made. As for pattern mistakes that's a different training of the mind altogether. Watch games of the very good players and the pro's. Guess before they shoot the pattern you would play; then compare it to what the pro has done. Then ask yourself what is the benefit in his play.

I hope this helps both Sidepocket and NKS!
 
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good analogy

Salamander said:
Timothy Gallway talks about this in the Inner Game of Golf (Tennis). When you are freewheeling you are engaging more of the "unconscious" you. You are relying more on "instinct" and allowing the body to do what it is trained to do.

By playing methodically, you are engaging the conscious more. The brain and analytical take over. You can also end up "trying" too hard.

I've struggled with this all my pool playing days. The most demonstrable occasion occured at the Derby City Classic when during a match I could not run more than a few balls before missing or getting out of line. I could not get out even though it might be like connect the dots. After losing, I went to a practice table and could not miss.

Ideally, I now try and practice and play matches in a methodical matter. However, I also try and "let" my body do what it is trained to do. In order to play at your maximum potential, I believe that you have to try and practice and play the same....whether it is for fun or big money.

You also need to understand and control the adrenaline (fight and flight) response that manifests itself when the pressure is on.

My advice is to read Inner Game to give yourself a better understanding of what is going on. One last thing....Max Eberle uses the analogy of "threading a needle". It is much easier to thread a needle if you don't try. The minute you consciously "try" and get that thread through the hole, it becomes really tough....Food for thought.

Regards,

Doug
Click to expand...

i like that "threading a needle", maybe i should get my girlfriend to shoot for me too! lol!:thumbup:
 
dabarbr said:
Imo you need to condition your mind and body to play slow and precise. Loosy goosey is for fun and you will only beat the ones that you're suppose to beat anyway. As soon as some pressure is applied to you the first thing to go out the window is touch and feel and you're done if there's nothing to fall back on.

By conditioning yourself to play precise you're also training yourself to weather the storm when things are not going well. I myself will start with a slower pace and as I start to feel more comfortable my rhythm comes out without me having to force it out. This way your mind and body will find what is the correct pace for you.

Very few people have the natural ability to play the free wheeling style, people like Earl, SVB and others. These guys play that way because they know they are the better player. But even these guys will falter with their touch and feel when they start to take the heat.
Click to expand...


For those that may not know, when Frank dabarbr talks, we should listen. He plays great pool, has beaten people like Mika and has played for about 300years. ;) The man knows his pool and freely conveys his experiences and opinions rather well. :thumbup:

There's more than one jewel of wisdom in his above post.
 
I just wanted to thank everyone for giving me some insight on the different styles of shooting. I often bounce back between each style, depending on my mood, and for once I would just like to settle on a style and stick with it. But maybe I need to shoot in different ways to suit the match/day I am shooting on? Its funny, because up until a few years ago, i never ever thought about my game. I hit a plateau, went searching for answers, and the quest still goes on...and on...and on.....
 
What Dabarber said - he knows what works - $40.00 of info for free on AZ.

You have. like we all have you say. those 2 different styles. Slow contemplative disciplined play - this is enervating. When this method works shot after shot, position after position, you will start to relax and move to the other free wheeling method (unconciously, more fun) until you start to miss.


Missing is a signal that you should revert to the more disciplined play. That you have this to go back to is a plus but realizing that you should is the hard part - it's mental.

I watch good players and often when they miss, it follows a break in their methodic play (2 strokes instead of 3) - taking the shot for granted? I am sure that they think the same - how did I miss that?

It is like work, it takes concentration and discipline to stay with the routine that works. To win at cards, I find that you need to study all of the elements - again like work.

Alas, I am lazy and no longer need to play cards or pool for a little change - I have a job which is a curse to both - being hungry helps your game.

Play like it's work.:smile:

Have fun after.
 
dabarbr said:
Imo you need to condition your mind and body to play slow and precise. Loosy goosey is for fun and you will only beat the ones that you're suppose to beat anyway. As soon as some pressure is applied to you the first thing to go out the window is touch and feel and you're done if there's nothing to fall back on.

By conditioning yourself to play precise you're also training yourself to weather the storm when things are not going well. I myself will start with a slower pace and as I start to feel more comfortable my rhythm comes out without me having to force it out. This way your mind and body will find what is the correct pace for you.

Very few people have the natural ability to play the free wheeling style, people like Earl, SVB and others. These guys play that way because they know they are the better player. But even these guys will falter with their touch and feel when they start to take the heat.
Click to expand...

Very well said. You said here in a few paragraphs what it has taken some people a lifetime to figure out if ever at all. :)
 
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Anakin, you must learn to trust your feelings...... then you will become invincible..... good luck...

sidepocket7 said:
Ok, so last night I was playing the Ghost, race to 10, 9 ball, BIH after the break. In an effort to really try to up my ball runout count, I decide to play my shots/patterns in a much slower and mechanical style. Very methodical in my decision making. So, I break, and I am able to pocket an average of 3-6 balls pretty consistently through the 10 racks. My focus is super high, and I am trying to play for very close to pinpoint ideal position. After a while, I become frustrated with my break shot, not being able to drop a ball, and getting lousy layouts, only leading to very short ball runouts. So I say to myself, "Ahh, screw it, just have some fun."
Well, guess what happens next. I powder my hands, grab my break cue, and snap the cueball into the rack. I drop 4 balls. Squat the rock. Get my playing cue, and proceed to runout, getting shape on every ball. Next rack, a break, 2 balls drop. Cueball ends up a bit farther down table, but center. I runout with ease. Now I am amped up, feeling super fluid with the stroke, and putting balls down like they have eyes. So, whats the deal? The first ten racks, I am focused, checking my mechanics, trying very hard to play great, text-book style pool. Slowing down, and making well though out decisions on how to hit the cueball and get position on the next ball. In the following ten racks, I say screw it, get up, and play the game purely from a feel? perspective.
So, my question is, what does this mean? It feels really good to play like this, but Alot of what I read and see, tells me otherwise. Any insight would be great!!
Click to expand...
 
Loosey goosey works best. The real danger lies in shooting without thinking. You must do your three balls ahead routine, even if this means slowing down a little. But if you can get in the zone, you mind works so fast it doesn't even seem like you are taking the time to think. Your brain sees pictures - all visual.
 
Sometimes, usually at the very beginning of the match, I will get up and shoot without thinking; kind of a visual/instinctual thing. Problem is, I get going so fast, and in the rotation games, my runs will be somewhat limited. When I first started shooting about 15 years ago, it was all 8 ball, so this would work alot because I usually had and insurance ball, but as i became bored with 8 and started playing 9/10/1 pocket ( my favs), my game changed. I really want to improve my shooting, cause I have hit a major plateau. Its refreshing to read some real opinions of people vs. books/videos
 
The time I start to slow down and overthink is about the same time I might as well get ready for the losers bracket.....

The only time I've found it's better for me to take a little more time is playing one-pocket.....in 9, 10, 8, 14.1 and banks, I always do better if I just trust my instincts and play.....
 
A big factor in this discussion is your brains processing speed. Like a computer our noggin has a speed it likes to work at.....some are faster then others. For some strange reason I can work numbers very quickly in my head....it's just how I am built. Pattern recognition, like the IQ tests have are also a strong point for me, so it's no surprise I play fast....like Drago fast. :)

If I do slow down too much my game falters. I can process the table layout, and the pattern needed in a few seconds, and pull the trigger just as quickly. Now, when a key point in the game arises like a tough hit, or safety issue, of course I take the time needed.

Grady makes a good point about this subject during an accustat 14.1 vid. he was doing commentary with weeniebeenie. He said, with the 45 second shot clock the matches have sped up, the play is better and there have been MANY 100 ball runs. Weeniebeenie asks if it maybe isn't enough time for some players, and Grady comments...could you imagine if a fast player like Dallas West HAD to take the full 45 seconds on each shot?....he would play terribly.

My take is.....being forced to speed up a little helped the players over all, and maybe slowed all the "analysis paralysis".
 
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