Low deflection shaft question....

jed1894

jed1894

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
such as the OB-1 (the one I play with) and 314:

I DO NOT want start a deflection shaft argument, nor am I a fan of a low deflection shaft, but I've been experimenting with my OB-1 and factory shafts (making comparisons). Here's my question:

For me, I can get more spin with my OB-1 than my factory shaft. Since my low deflection shaft (OB-1) will spin the cue ball more (for me at least) wouldn't that cause less accuracy in case of unwanted spin? I mean, if I have a long shot with my OB-1, which is more sensitive to spin, and I hit just a little off, wouldn't that cause more of an error in aiming than a shaft that doesn't apply that much spin if the hit is a little off?

For example (I video taped this): I play with a red-dotted cue ball and sometimes I see unwanted spin on the cue ball after hitting with my OB-1 and I know that I hit it center ball or very close to it. However, the unwanted spin is not so pronounced with my factory shaft.

I'm sorry if I confused everyone, but the basic question is: if you hit the low deflection shaft off a little will the bad result be more than a factory shaft? If so, then how can an argument be made that low deflection shafts are more accurate?

thanks, JED
 
You will need to shoot more center ball and less English. There are adjusments to transition from a standard shaft to an OB1 or 314.
 
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If so, then how can an argument be made that low deflection shafts are more accurate?
Because they send the cueball to the ghostball more accurately?
Whether the ball is spinning or not.
 
low squirt does not mean more English

jed1894 said:
if you hit the low deflection shaft off a little will the bad result be more than a factory shaft?
Click to expand...
If both shafts have the same tip with the same shape, and the stroke is the same, the amount of English should be the same (for all practical purposes). For more info, see the answer to the 2nd question here:

jed1894 said:
If so, then how can an argument be made that low deflection shafts are more accurate?
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See the answer to the 1st question here:


Regards,
Dave
 
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jed1894 said:
such as the OB-1 (the one I play with) and 314:

I DO NOT want start a deflection shaft argument, nor am I a fan of a low deflection shaft, but I've been experimenting with my OB-1 and factory shafts (making comparisons). Here's my question:

For me, I can get more spin with my OB-1 than my factory shaft. Since my low deflection shaft (OB-1) will spin the cue ball more (for me at least) wouldn't that cause less accuracy in case of unwanted spin? I mean, if I have a long shot with my OB-1, which is more sensitive to spin, and I hit just a little off, wouldn't that cause more of an error in aiming than a shaft that doesn't apply that much spin if the hit is a little off?

For example (I video taped this): I play with a red-dotted cue ball and sometimes I see unwanted spin on the cue ball after hitting with my OB-1 and I know that I hit it center ball or very close to it. However, the unwanted spin is not so pronounced with my factory shaft.

I'm sorry if I confused everyone, but the basic question is: if you hit the low deflection shaft off a little will the bad result be more than a factory shaft? If so, then how can an argument be made that low deflection shafts are more accurate?

thanks, JED
Click to expand...

I completely agree. I have argued it before.

For me, the low deflection shafts DO spin the ball more and are much less forgiving if you don't hit precisely where you intend on the cueball. Of course 90 percent of the people will disagree because they all have laser accurate strokes. ;)
 
LAMas said:
You will need to shoot more center ball and less English. There are adjusments to transition from a standard shaft to an OB1 or 324.
Click to expand...

I understand. However, the argument for a long time has been that a not-so-good player with be better with a low deflection shaft. How could this be true if hitting the cue ball off a little (which is what most not-so-good-players do) will cause the cue ball to spin more? Or, do I have this all wrong: will low deflection shafts not spin as much?

Also, I'm talking about squirt corrections, etc. I'm simply talking about accidentally hitting the cue ball off just a tad.

JED
 
jed1894 said:
such as the OB-1 (the one I play with) and 314:

I DO NOT want start a deflection shaft argument, nor am I a fan of a low deflection shaft, but I've been experimenting with my OB-1 and factory shafts (making comparisons). Here's my question:

For me, I can get more spin with my OB-1 than my factory shaft. Since my low deflection shaft (OB-1) will spin the cue ball more (for me at least) wouldn't that cause less accuracy in case of unwanted spin? I mean, if I have a long shot with my OB-1, which is more sensitive to spin, and I hit just a little off, wouldn't that cause more of an error in aiming than a shaft that doesn't apply that much spin if the hit is a little off?

For example (I video taped this): I play with a red-dotted cue ball and sometimes I see unwanted spin on the cue ball after hitting with my OB-1 and I know that I hit it center ball or very close to it. However, the unwanted spin is not so pronounced with my factory shaft.

I'm sorry if I confused everyone, but the basic question is: if you hit the low deflection shaft off a little will the bad result be more than a factory shaft? If so, then how can an argument be made that low deflection shafts are more accurate?

thanks, JED
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have a great point and i do not doubt what your saying at all. I just know that I have been shooting with the 314 for a while now and I'm so use to it that I shot with a friends cue and he had a factory shaft on it and it felt completely different for me, then he put a 314 on that same cue and I shot the same shots but I pocketed them this time. It might be all in my head but I will not change back from the low defection shafts!
 
IMO (and I stress in my opinion only), I can get more spin with the OB-1 (Talisman). I've tested the OB-1 against my factory shafts -- some with the same tips (Shurtz (moori), Viking (sniper), Jacoby (talisman), McDermott (Triangle), Dufferin (talisman) and Meucci black dot (talisman).... and I can draw and follow much better with the OB-1. In my shooting experiments, the dotted ball spins more with the OB-1, which is not a bad thing and that's the reason I play with it. But, sometimes I miss straight on shots with the OB-1 and the cue ball is spinning after the shot. I don't get this with the factory shafts.

JED
 
jed1894 said:
IMO (and I stress in my opinion only), I can get more spin with the OB-1 (Talisman). I've tested the OB-1 against my factory shafts -- some with the same tips (Shurtz (moori), Viking (sniper), Jacoby (talisman), McDermott (Triangle), Dufferin (talisman) and Meucci black dot (talisman).... and I can draw and follow much better with the OB-1. In my shooting experiments, the dotted ball spins more with the OB-1, which is not a bad thing and that's the reason I play with it. But, sometimes I miss straight on shots with the OB-1 and the cue ball is spinning after the shot. I don't get this with the factory shafts.

JED
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Whoops, I need to make a correction: I didn't mean to add the Meucci to the mix. The Meucci black dot will spend very well also. Matter-of-fact, since I changed the tip, it plays very well.

JED
 
you do not get more spin with a low deflection shaft than a regular shaft. that part of it is all in your head. or your stroke.

they are however less forgiving with unintended off centre hits. you may have heard the old adage that low squirt shafts are more forgiving with off centre hits. that's a myth - it's the other way around.

However, the argument for a long time has been that a not-so-good player with be better with a low deflection shaft.
Click to expand...

this as well, it's not particularly true. it's more that if a beginner player learns from scratch then a low squirt shaft is better because he doesn't have to bother learning how to compensate for all the squirt. plus there is the argument that compensating for barely any deflection at all is easier than compensating for a lot. therefore a less skilled player will find this easier.

but the argument in your quote, that a not so good player would be better with a low deflection shaft is all to do with deflection, not putting spin on the ball.

But, sometimes I miss straight on shots with the OB-1 and the cue ball is spinning after the shot. I don't get this with the factory shafts.
Click to expand...

that is simply because you haven't hit the ball in the centre (hence all the spin on the ball) and you have also cut the ball a bit causing you to miss. it's your stroke. :)
 
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you do not get more spin with a low deflection shaft than a regular shaft. that part of it is all in your head. or your stroke.
Click to expand...

This is right.

they are however less forgiving with unintended off centre hits. you may have heard the old adage that low squirt shafts are more forgiving with off centre hits. that's a myth - it's the other way around.
Click to expand...

This is wrong.

If low-squirt shafts don't produce "extra" spin and don't produce as much squirt, then how can they be "less forgiving"? Less forgiving in what way?

pj
chgo
 
worriedbeef said:
you do not get more spin with a low deflection shaft than a regular shaft. that part of it is all in your head. or your stroke.

they are however less forgiving with unintended off centre hits. you may have heard the old adage that low squirt shafts are more forgiving with off centre hits. that's a myth - it's the other way around.



this as well, it's not particularly true. it's more that if a beginner player learns from scratch then a low squirt shaft is better because he doesn't have to bother learning how to compensate for all the squirt. plus there is the argument that compensating for barely any deflection at all is easier than compensating for a lot. therefore a less skilled player will find this easier.

but the argument in your quote, that a not so good player would be better with a low deflection shaft is all to do with deflection, not putting spin on the ball.



that is simply because you haven't hit the ball in the centre (hence all the spin on the ball) and you have also cut the ball a bit causing you to miss. it's your stroke. :)
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I see all your points and they all make good sense. But I've been paying pool for 45 years and I know when a shaft gives me more spin. I grew up in a pool hall (father owned) and I have my own now. I have three so-called low deflection shafts (a 314, two OB-1s (another on the way) and a black dot). All give me more spin. It's not in my head because I've tested all three the last year playing at least every other night. I just started video taping the sessions to play back and see what I'm doing on each stroke. I've compare the impact of each shaft to the cue ball and there is no doubt that I get more spin with the low deflection shaft. I first thought it was in my head, but it's not: the ball simply spins more for me with the low defection shaft.

To give you an example of one experiment: I mark my table with chalk marks and set up the same shot every time. I then hit the cue ball and try to put as much draw on the ball as possible. I then measure the distance of draw. I do this 10 times with the same shaft then average the distance. I then take a break and come back with another shaft and do the same thing. The results are astonishing. The low deflection shafts (mainly the OB-1) gives me on average 30% more draw. I have other experiments, but I'm rambling now.

JEd
 
worriedbeef said:
you do not get more spin with a low deflection shaft than a regular shaft. that part of it is all in your head. or your stroke.

they are however less forgiving with unintended off centre hits. you may have heard the old adage that low squirt shafts are more forgiving with off centre hits. that's a myth - it's the other way around.:)
Click to expand...



I just re-read your post. It seems like your first two paragraphs contradict each other. How can you say that low deflection shafts do not give more spin, then you say off center hits on low deflection shafts are less forgiving? I'm not being a smart a@$, but can you explain this?

JEd
 
jed1894 said:
To give you an example of one experiment: I mark my table with chalk marks and set up the same shot every time. I then hit the cue ball and try to put as much draw on the ball as possible. I then measure the distance of draw. I do this 10 times with the same shaft then average the distance. I then take a break and come back with another shaft and do the same thing. The results are astonishing. The low deflection shafts (mainly the OB-1) gives me on average 30% more draw. I have other experiments, but I'm rambling now.
Click to expand...

In order to mean anything you'd have to (1) set up the cue ball so you can verify how far offcenter you're hitting and also (2) find a way to verify that you're hitting all shots at the same speed.

You can do #1 by using an object ball as the CB with one of the circled numbers facing you, check the chalk mark afterwards to see how close you hit to the edge of the circle (that's about the miscue limit), and only comparing shots where you hit the right spot. Remember, a millimeter or two matters.

You can do #2 by measuring how far the OB rolls after the shot and only comparing shots where the OB rolls the same distance - say, shoot the OB off the foot spot toward the head rail and only compare shots where the OB just reaches the foot rail (after rebounding off the head rail).

If you actually control these two variables (rather than just thinking you do) I bet you'll get very similar results.

pj
chgo
 
jed1894 said:
I understand. However, the argument for a long time has been that a not-so-good player with be better with a low deflection shaft. How could this be true if hitting the cue ball off a little (which is what most not-so-good-players do) will cause the cue ball to spin more? Or, do I have this all wrong: will low deflection shafts not spin as much?

Also, I'm talking about squirt corrections, etc. I'm simply talking about accidentally hitting the cue ball off just a tad.

JED
Click to expand...

As Dr Dave points out, there is no reason to belive that the deflection charactics of the shaft...IN AND OF THEMSELVES...will lead to more or less spin.

Too many people try a L/D (or traditional) shaft with Tip X and the other kind of shaft with Tip Y...get different spin rates and then conclude the shaft is what causes the difference.

In addition, traditional shafts can have widely differing deflection characteristics so often the comparisons are between apples, oranges and guava! (-:

But a portion of your post suggests the question as to whether greater spin...HOWEVER it is achieved, is good or bad.

I suggest it is largely BAD. That is why I tride a Sniper tip and abandoned it fairly quickly. Why? Because in my experience, it DOES impart more spin which is both the good news and the bad news.

The bad news is that for mortal man, delivering the tip exactly to an intended CB contact point does not happen 100% of the time and to the extent that you strike the CB other than where you intend, error factors such as SIT, swerve, deflection etc. are introduced.

Bottom line, my position is that it is wise to eliminate as many errors as possible that...while CAUSED by the shooter (all errors are) are magnified by the CUE/TIP system.

Therefore, for a given PLAYER stroke error, more spin (tip induced) and more squirt (shaft induced) will magnify the player error.

That suggests the use of L/D shafts and tips that FEEL good to you but are not known to be "superior" spin producers.

Regards,
Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
In order to mean anything you'd have to (1) set up the cue ball so you can verify how far offcenter you're hitting and also (2) find a way to verify that you're hitting all shots at the same speed.

You can do #1 by using an object ball as the CB with one of the circled numbers facing you, check the chalk mark afterwards to see how close you hit to the edge of the circle (that's about the miscue limit), and only comparing shots where you hit the right spot. Remember, a millimeter or two matters.

You can do #2 by measuring how far the OB rolls after the shot and only comparing shots where the OB rolls the same distance - say, shoot the OB off the foot spot toward the head rail and only compare shots where the OB just reaches the foot rail (after rebounding off the head rail).

If you actually control these two variables (rather than just thinking you do) I bet you'll get very similar results.

pj
chgo
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You make very good points and I've tried to do what your saying as best I can. That's why I started video taping. Just to add this, I didn't just do this test one time. I've done this same test with the same shaft about 7 or 8 times, which would be 80 or so hits per session. That would also mean that I've made contact with the cue ball about 150 times. In every test, the low deflection shafts won the draw contest.

JEd
 
av84fun said:
But a portion of your post suggests the question as to whether greater spin...HOWEVER it is achieved, is good or bad.

I suggest it is largely BAD. That is why I tride a Sniper tip and abandoned it fairly quickly. Why? Because in my experience, it DOES impart more spin which is both the good news and the bad news.

The bad news is that for mortal man, delivering the tip exactly to an intended CB contact point does not happen 100% of the time and to the extent that you strike the CB other than where you intend, error factors such as SIT, swerve, deflection etc. are introduced.

Bottom line, my position is that it is wise to eliminate as many errors as possible that...while CAUSED by the shooter (all errors are) are magnified by the CUE/TIP system.

Therefore, for a given PLAYER stroke error, more spin (tip induced) and more squirt (shaft induced) will magnify the player error.

That suggests the use of L/D shafts and tips that FEEL good to you but are not known to be "superior" spin producers.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

I agree. That's my question. Will a L/D shaft cause the average player to be less-accurate overall? Or will a L/D shaft help an average player?

JEd
 
jed1894 said:
You make very good points and I've tried to do what your saying as best I can. That's why I started video taping. Just to add this, I didn't just do this test one time. I've done this same test with the same shaft about 7 or 8 times, which would be 80 or so hits per session. That would also mean that I've made contact with the cue ball about 150 times. In every test, the low deflection shafts won the draw contest.

JEd
Click to expand...

I've done the tests I describe (with very careful control of the tip offset and speed variables) many many times over the past several years (at least hundreds of total shots) and have never found any significant difference between any cues.

I'm not trying to "compare sizes", just confirming that I've actually tested many cues the way I recommend.

It's very easy (probably inevitable) for our observations to be influenced by our preconceptions when doing something as "intuitive" as pool.

pj
chgo
 
This is wrong.

If low-squirt shafts don't produce "extra" spin and don't produce as much squirt, then how can they be "less forgiving"? Less forgiving in what way?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

hmmm you've called me on something i took for granted in being true - i came to this conclusion based on both personal experience and quite a few other people's experience in another thread a while back. although i still believe it completely i haven't tested it thoroughly enough to state exactly what i feel the cause is, but i think it's swerve. certainly i've stated before and stand by it that i believe the OB-1 in particular seems to produce a lot of swerve - whether that makes logical sense or not i'm not so sure lol. maybe it flies in the face of and contradicts my belief that low deflection shafts don't produce extra spin i don't know. but there again how can it because swerve isn't caused by spin per se, it's cause by the fact you are hitting down on the cue ball slightly. hmm i'm rambling now, but the ob-1 defnitely seems to swerve the ball more and i know you don't believe that PJ - i will explain my theory later. :)

another thing i think is that some shafts do make it more difficult to put a lot of spin on the ball - exactly what the characteristics are that determines this i'm so sure but it definitely seems to be the case. for example i have a shaft which is significantly thicker and i struggle to put a lot of draw or follow on it. (even consciously hitting extra high and low to compensate for the bigger tip).

so you can make a shaft i think which puts less spin on a cue ball, but at the other end of the scale the maximum amount of spin a shaft can produce is achieveable regardless of whether a shaft has low squirt characteristics or not. the 'low deflection' element has no discernible effect on how much spin you can apply.

sorry for the extremely wordy post btw. :)
 
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