Luther Lassiter's mechanics

[Fast Lenny]

If i had to put all my money on either Efren or Wimpy in a race to 100 in 9 ball with no stopping,a straight race to 100 it would be Lassiter,that man played long sessions in a tux with internal bleeding. Its all fun to talk and compare these guys and we all have our opinions but you have to know about the players before you can make a good intelligent choice.

 

[cuetechustla]

Dale,

The problem is, some people are brainwashed into thinking that Reyes was the only great player to have ever made a ball.

As much as I love Reyes, as many posts that I written filled with wonderful, glowing accolades on his skill and great accomplishments, as much as we all love to root for him, the fact is he still was not the first man on the moon, he was never president of the USA, he didn't build the great pyamids of Egypt, he did not fly the first aircraft, he did not invent the telephone....but, he does get all the ROLLS, the ROLLS, the ROLLS.

Sorry.....I lost my mind for a second there.

What makes Efren a great player is his unique pool play....stuff that I haven't seen any other pool player do. Efren sees things other players don't. I mean, one time in the San Regency Open XXI, Efren was playing Earl and played a 6 rail position play and ran out Now he was out of line but I've never seen ANYONE ever do this ever until then.

 

[cuetechustla]

If i had to put all my money on either Efren or Wimpy in a race to 100 in 9 ball with no stopping,a straight race to 100 it would be Lassiter,that man played long sessions in a tux with internal bleeding. Its all fun to talk and compare these guys and we all have our opinions but you have to know about the players before you can make a good intelligent choice.

Wow, that's a strong comment, I'd love to know more about Wimpy's pool play...care to talk about it

 

[cuetechustla]

Cuetechustla,

Did you even bother to read my response to your question in post #40???
I took the time to try to enlighten you about Lassiter, since it's so obvious you know NOTHING about him or how he played. And after all that, you come back with 5 posts, each one challenging everybody elses views.

All you can come up with is "ROLLS, ROLLS, ROLLS" This is POOL, not voodoo. If all you can provide to this discussion is "What about the ROLLS, the ROLLS, the ROLLS?" and then come back with a question like "Describe some of his achievments"...then I'm wasting my time with you.

Why didn't you just tell us all that your mind was made up a long time ago?

You don't have to agree with me or anybody else here. But when you ask a question, at least listen with an open mind if you really want to learn about the history of our sport's great players. If you want to say that the greatest player in history is determined by "the ROLLS, the ROLLS, the ROLLS", and your other classic "what about the magic?", then I can't help you learn anything about any of the great players. You wouldn't believe it anyway.

And by the way, just because you never heard of Lassiter doesn't diminish what he accomplished on the table. Efren Reyes is not the only great player to have ever lived.

Terry I read what you posted...I'm just trying to get into the nuts and bolts on HOW good Luther really was. You know, like saying during this one match he did this....and this...but it seems no one is only able to repeat what I can find and read in Wikipedia.

 

[Fast Lenny]

What makes Efren a great player is his unique pool play....stuff that I haven't seen any other pool player do. Efren sees things other players don't. I mean, one time in the San Regency Open XXI, Efren was playing Earl and played a 6 rail position play and ran out Now he was out of line but I've never seen ANYONE ever do this ever until then.

WOW!You must have caught the video on youtube like most people,too bad there arent alot of Wimpy so you could see other great players play the game.Efren made a good shot but set it up 10 times,he might be lucky to make it once,it was a low percentage lucky shot.

 

[cuetechustla]

WOW!You must have caught the video on youtube like most people,too bad there arent alot of Wimpy so you could see other great players play the game.Efren made a good shot but set it up 10 times,he might be lucky to make it once,it was a low percentage lucky shot.

FYI....I've had the VHS tape for the longest You know what you're right, Efren always says he's lucky

That also brings up a good question, where is all the footage of Wimpy's tournament play? Can you actually buy this anywhere? I only have the Challenge of the Champions match with him playing Cowboy Jimmy Moore.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Wow, that's a strong comment, I'd love to know more about Wimpy's pool play...care to talk about it

Since you cant find alot online then buy the book Hustler Days,it will be a wake up for you and alot of info you might be interested in if you love pool when it was raw.Here is an old hard to find clip of Wimpy,enjoy!
http://stage6.divx.com/user/PoolRevoluter21/video/1069290/legend-

 

[cuetechustla]

Since you cant find alot online then buy the book Hustler Days,it will be a wake up for you and alot of info you might be interested in if you love pool when it was raw.Here is an old hard to find clip of Wimpy,enjoy!
http://stage6.divx.com/user/PoolRevoluter21/video/1069290/legend-

I've seen this before...I must admit, I was impressed on the two final bank shots to win the match. Wish I could see the entire match.

Sorry to go here again, but If he would scratched on the break playing Efren, it would be all over for that game

 

[Fatboy]

What makes Efren a great player is his unique pool play....stuff that I haven't seen any other pool player do. Efren sees things other players don't. I mean, one time in the San Regency Open XXI, Efren was playing Earl and played a 6 rail position play and ran out Now he was out of line but I've never seen ANYONE ever do this ever until then.

If SVB develops Efrens creativity, can you imagine what that would be like?, I have never ever seen anyone seee the things Efren sees, Archeer, Varner, Keith, Earl, Buddy etc. they just dont miss and have perfect CB control grented they all have their own style of play but their styles are similar in certain ways then there is Efren, I dont think he pockets the balls as good as Earl can when Earl is "on" but nobody ever comes up with the creative stuff Efren does and it shows up in 1P the most. WOW. I have been saying this for 20 years.

 

[ironman]

And just what about a certain cat named Harold Worst
Beard, back me up on this one

He is the one I would have loved to see play.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Cuetechustla,

Did you even bother to read my response to your question in post #40???
I took the time to try to enlighten you about Lassiter, since it's so obvious you know NOTHING about him or how he played. And after all that, you come back with 5 posts, each one challenging everybody elses views.

All you can come up with is "ROLLS, ROLLS, ROLLS" This is POOL, not voodoo. If all you can provide to this discussion is "What about the ROLLS, the ROLLS, the ROLLS?" and then come back with a question like "Describe some of his achievments"...then I'm wasting my time with you.

Why didn't you just tell us all that your mind was made up a long time ago?

You don't have to agree with me or anybody else here. But when you ask a question, at least listen with an open mind if you really want to learn about the history of our sport's great players. If you want to say that the greatest player in history is determined by "the ROLLS, the ROLLS, the ROLLS", and your other classic "what about the magic?", then I can't help you learn anything about any of the great players. You wouldn't believe it anyway.

And by the way, just because you never heard of Lassiter doesn't diminish what he accomplished on the table. Efren Reyes is not the only great player to have ever lived.

Terry,

Let's be honest here...Just because Wimpy won a bunch of tournaments doesn't mean anything about how he would match up against Efren.

I'll use a self effacing example. I win ALL the tournaments here in Iraq that I care to participate in. Does that make me an awesome player? Not by default. It just means I can beat all the people I play against regularly.

Now, Wimpy won a lot of the tournaments he played in. Great. What does that mean? It means simply that he could beat that small corp of his generation's tournament players like red headed stepchildren, is all..

What separates Efren from the crowd today is not his run out skills. Lots of players today can run out every time they can see the ball. That's the thing.. Efren doesn't let them see the ball. And when they hook him, a HUGE percentage of the time, he either makes the ball on a kick, or resafes them.

Now, to say unequivocally that Wimpy would have beat Efren, you have to tell us how Wimpy handled situations like these. Did he win a disproportinate amount of racks where he was hooked? If you simply say "He must have! He beat everyone in his generation! Do you think they did not know how to play safe?"

My answer to that would be, "Well, quite frankly, no...I don't.."

The Americans were totally unprepared for Efren and Jose's level of play, the amazing safety and resafety talent. Considering that Wimpy's generation taught THAT generation how to play, then you think that if they would have had any inkling that 9 ball could be played like that, they would have prepared their protege's for it.

Saying, "Well, if Wimpy had grown up in THIS generation, he would have been JUST as dominant..." doesn't hold water, either.. How could one POSSIBLY know that? Yes, Wimpy was great at running racks. YAWN. Efren can spot lots of guys that never miss a ball.. Didn't you know?

So, we say again.. Please give some actual REASONS why Wimpy would dominate Efren. I haven't seen any yet. Wimpy won lots of tournaments. Yippee. So has Efren. Efren has arguably won tournaments where the field was a HELL of a lot deeper than what Wimpy had to face.

Now don't mistake what I am saying here for me declaring that Efren would win that matchup. I'm just saying that you haven't made your argument well enough to come even close to convincing me. Efren has dominated in a generation where any unknown kid is liable to step up and run the first 3 racks on you in a tournament set. I have seen many times on DVD where Efren has had no chance to win for the first 3 or 4 racks in a set, is down 4-0, and then totally blows the dude away.

From what I have been told, Wimpy let his cue ball run around on the break. That right there puts to doubt any declarations that he would have dominated Efren. The way Efren plays, you hook yourself off the break once or twice in a match, and it maight cost you 5-6 games. If Wimpy could fade that, then he really was a monster.

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

I've seen this before...I must admit, I was impressed on the two final bank shots to win the match. Wish I could see the entire match.

Sorry to go here again, but If he would scratched on the break playing Efren, it would be all over for that game

And if Efren already had the 1 ball break in the side down for that table, it quite possibly could have cost him 2 or 3 more racks...

Russ

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry I read what you posted...I'm just trying to get into the nuts and bolts on HOW good Luther really was. You know, like saying during this one match he did this....and this...but it seems no one is only able to repeat what I can find and read in Wikipedia.

cuetechustla,

Here is an excerpt from the infamous post #40....
He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.

Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.

As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But, Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.

As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 4 WC and 4 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.

Now, for the fresh material....
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?

Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them. How can that be any clearer???

The simple fact is Reyes was a better 1 pocket, 8 ball and especially Rotation player than he was as a 9 baller.

Luther Lassiter was the better 9 baller of the two of them.

 

[Russ Chewning]

cuetechustla,

Now, for the fresh material....
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?

And now for the most pertinent question: How many players were in these "World Championships"? And at that time, was one foul, b-i-h the rule of the day? And did Wimpy have to deal with the kids who today will step up and run a few racks right off the starting line?

Face it.. Efren dominated in a time period where information on how to play was easy to get.... As a whole, there are MORE good players you have to get through to win a major today than in Lassiter's time. Heck, I would say even the Sands Regency tournament would be tougher to win today than the "World Championship" in Lassiter's time, let alone the "real" World Championships being held today.. I've seen the stories from Lassiter's time.. If someone ran 8 and out in a tournament, they were almost automatically labeled a good player. Today, Joe Schmoe from Kokomo will run 8 and out on you if you give him a shot.

The level of play is MUCH MUCH MUCH higher today, all around, and Efren dominated as that was coming to be. Lassiter MIGHT have beaten Efren, but you still haven't convinced me.

Russ

 

[hangemhigh]

Okay, here we go.

First of all, "Push Out 9-Ball" was a tougher game, so the better players had more of an advantage. All balls spotted up, and on a foul you shot from behind the line. Much tougher game that way. You didn't have to jump or kick at balls because you could roll out for a shot. Banking ability was paramount because often you would roll out for a bank. With the advent of "One Foul BIH" kicking and jumping ability became far more important than before.

Louie Roberts was the greatest pure shotmaker I ever saw. He could cut a ball that was one eighth inch off the rail all the way down the table, and it would stay one eighth inch off the rail all the way to the pocket. He hit everything on a straight line! Richie Florence was the second best shotmaker, and the best ever for the cash. He could run out rack after rack of 9-Ball and be out of line on half the shots. If he could see it, he could make it!

Harold Worst was the best pool player I ever saw and Jose Parica may have been second. Worst excelled at all games and possibly could have beaten Ronnie if he ever learned how to play One Pocket. Jose was the best I ever saw for money and Buddy may have been second. No one would play Worst for money, although he was quite willing. Buddy played the best patterns and had the nicest cue ball control in 9-Ball. Nobody knows more about how to play pool than Buddy, and no one knows more shots. Only the great 14.1 players like Mizerak and Sigel understand the stack better. In One Pocket no one knew as much as Ronnie ever, especially how to play the stack.

No one ever controlled the cue ball better than Efren, and it really shows up in One Pocket. Wilie Mosconi was the best straight Pool player I ever saw and Mizerak was second. Mosconi's cue ball was equal to Efren's at this one game. In tournament 9-Ball, Strickland stands alone. But if they both got to the finals, Sigel was the best under pressure. Lassiter missed the fewest balls in his era and Sigel missed the least during his era. No one (except Worst) was willing to play Lassiter 9-Ball for money for over 20 years. He had a short choppy stroke like Hopkins, but rarely missed a ball and played flawless position. His patterns were not like Buddy's. Luther did not move the cue ball any more than necessary. Only Don Watson also played this way, and was nearly as good. He might miss a ball once every hour. Luther would not!

Ed Kelly was the greatest all around player when he was playing and had the purest stroke ever. But he couldn't beat Lassiter at 9-Ball, Ronnie at One Pocket or Mizerak at Straight Pool. Sigel was the greatest all around player of his generation and he might beat anyone at any game! Except he couldn't beat Parica for the cash at 9-Ball, Ten Ball or Rotation. Efren remains the best player at two of the most difficult games there are, Rotation and One Pocket.

One caveat. For a few years, Denny may have been right there with Buddy playing for money. He did things with the cue ball that I never saw again until Efren came along.

Jay,What about Banks? Mr. Taylor

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry,

Let's be honest here...Just because Wimpy won a bunch of tournaments doesn't mean anything about how he would match up against Efren.

I'll use a self effacing example. I win ALL the tournaments here in Iraq that I care to participate in. Does that make me an awesome player? Not by default. It just means I can beat all the people I play against regularly.

Now, Wimpy won a lot of the tournaments he played in. Great. What does that mean? It means simply that he could beat that small corp of his generation's tournament players like red headed stepchildren, is all..

What separates Efren from the crowd today is not his run out skills. Lots of players today can run out every time they can see the ball. That's the thing.. Efren doesn't let them see the ball. And when they hook him, a HUGE percentage of the time, he either makes the ball on a kick, or resafes them.

Now, to say unequivocally that Wimpy would have beat Efren, you have to tell us how Wimpy handled situations like these. Did he win a disproportinate amount of racks where he was hooked? If you simply say "He must have! He beat everyone in his generation! Do you think they did not know how to play safe?"

My answer to that would be, "Well, quite frankly, no...I don't.."

The Americans were totally unprepared for Efren and Jose's level of play, the amazing safety and resafety talent. Considering that Wimpy's generation taught THAT generation how to play, then you think that if they would have had any inkling that 9 ball could be played like that, they would have prepared their protege's for it.

Saying, "Well, if Wimpy had grown up in THIS generation, he would have been JUST as dominant..." doesn't hold water, either.. How could one POSSIBLY know that? Yes, Wimpy was great at running racks. YAWN. Efren can spot lots of guys that never miss a ball.. Didn't you know?

So, we say again.. Please give some actual REASONS why Wimpy would dominate Efren. I haven't seen any yet. Wimpy won lots of tournaments. Yippee. So has Efren. Efren has arguably won tournaments where the field was a HELL of a lot deeper than what Wimpy had to face.

Now don't mistake what I am saying here for me declaring that Efren would win that matchup. I'm just saying that you haven't made your argument well enough to come even close to convincing me. Efren has dominated in a generation where any unknown kid is liable to step up and run the first 3 racks on you in a tournament set. I have seen many times on DVD where Efren has had no chance to win for the first 3 or 4 racks in a set, is down 4-0, and then totally blows the dude away.

From what I have been told, Wimpy let his cue ball run around on the break. That right there puts to doubt any declarations that he would have dominated Efren. The way Efren plays, you hook yourself off the break once or twice in a match, and it maight cost you 5-6 games. If Wimpy could fade that, then he really was a monster.

Russ

Russ,
Funny how you finally have time to correspond with me. I have asked you questions on the forum, in PM's and even repped you in the past, and never got any response. Oh wait, I forgot about one comment I did get from you. It was your sarcastic comments when a thread turned towards the subject of God.

Well, first things first. Here is a quote from your post....

Let's be honest here...Just because Wimpy won a bunch of tournaments doesn't mean anything about how he would match up against Efren.

Now, changing that around a little...Just because Efren won a handful of 9 ball tournaments doesn't mean anything about how he would match up against Wimpy.

And also, who is the "WE" you keep refering to? You and Cuetechustla?
Because it sure looked to me that pdcue, Neil and Fast Lenny agreed with Lassiter...

Please wait just a minute until I go to your other post. I'll answer that other priceless question you posed....

 

[Terry Ardeno]

And now for the most pertinent question: How many players were in these "World Championships"? And at that time, was one foul, b-i-h the rule of the day? And did Wimpy have to deal with the kids who today will step up and run a few racks right off the starting line?

The level of play is MUCH MUCH MUCH higher today, all around, and Efren dominated as that was coming to be. Lassiter MIGHT have beaten Efren, but you still haven't convinced me.

Russ

Russ,

Lassiter had real weak competion in his day. Probably a bunch of bums you never heard of.....Ed Kelly, Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Danny DiLiberto, Billy Incardona, Richie Florence, Dany Jones, Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson, Harold Worst, Jimmy Moore, Cicero Murphy, Jim Mariono, Joe Russo, Al Coslosky, etc. Heck, rumor has it that Lassiter actually got greenhorns just starting out in pool, like Steve Mizerak , Lary Lisciotti, Nick Varner and Buddy Hall, who, by the way, in his biography "Rags to Rifleman" called Lassiter the best 9 baller he ever saw.

Very weak competition indeed.

 

[Russ Chewning]

The "WE" I am talking about is all those who, like me, don't believe you have a leg to stand on in saying Lassiter automatically dominates Efren.

And I never made any declaration that Efren would win the matchup.. YOU are the one saying you "know what's what" here. My view is that it would be a close matchup. I personally don't think Lassiter would win in a long matchup, because the game has evolved too much since then. Lassiter did not have to deal with the overall level of safety play that Efren did..

The Filipinos as a whole were much better at safety play than Americans when Efren and Jose came over, and let's not forget... Efren had to pick up 3-Cushion/Balkline in the Phillipines because noone would touch him with a 10 foot pole on a pool table. He came over and saw the Americans as ridiculously easy to beat. He was spotting every American 2-3 games when they were betting on matches in his first tournament over in the U.S.

I am not submitting these examples to say why Efren would beat Wimpy tho.. I am only submitting them as reason why Lassiter would NOT dominate Efren. Would Wimpy in his prime beat Efren in his prime? Maybe.. But it sure would not be by 30 games in a race to 100...

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

Russ,

Lassiter had real weak competion in his day. Probably a bunch of bums you never heard of.....Ed Kelly, Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Danny DiLiberto, Billy Incardona, Richie Florence, Dany Jones, Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson, Harold Worst, Jimmy Moore, Cicero Murphy, Jim Mariono, Joe Russo, Al Coslosky, etc. Heck, rumor has it that Lassiter actually got greenhorns just starting out in pool, like Steve Mizerak , Lary Lisciotti, Nick Varner and Buddy Hall, who, by the way, in his biography "Rags to Rifleman" called Lassiter the best 9 baller he ever saw.

Very weak competition indeed.

Whereas in any ONE tournament Efren won he might have had to play:

Archer, Pagulayan, Van Boening, Immonen, Engert, Hohmann, Davenport, Strickland, Bustamente, Alcano, Yang, Manalo, Orcullo, Ortmann, Souqet, Feijen, oh yeah, AND a "more experienced" Hall and Varner, Chia-Chang Wu, Deuel,

(Wait a second... my fingers are getting cramped... let me take a short break...)

Okay, here we go:

Fong Pang Chao, Rodney Morris, Lee Van Corteza, San Souci, Rempe, Raphael Martinez, Andam, Jeremy Jones, Daulton, Sambajon, Chamat, Medina, (Oh my gosh, how did I forget to put him in WAY DOWN HERE?) PARICA, Tony Drago, John Schmidt, Gabe Owen, Dennis Hatch, Van Den Berg, Luat, (GAH! fingers cramping again!)

Anyways... You get the point.. Let's be clear.. All these guys either ARE, or at one point WERE capable of winning any tournament in the world. Just about every single one of them have won at least 3-4 pro tournaments.

Let's look at your list again... Joe Russo, Al Coslosky???? No offense, but put both players at their prime, and you can put any of my picks above in the ring with them, and I'll bet my house my guy wins.

Larry Lisciotti, Jimmy Marino? Yeah, they are good players. Pick anyone in the bottom 15% of my list, and we'll call it even. Anyone above that, and you can get 6 to 5 on the money. Oh yeah.. And a game on the wire in a race to 11.

Note that I didn't even MENTION the other 200 players on the world scene that are capable of playing a "perfect match" against any of the top dogs on any given day. The pool world is a whole different animal today than it was 40 years ago.

You mentioned about 11 players who I think at their prime would stand a good chance to place in the top ten at a world event, in their prime. Notice I said MIGHT. I think at least 30 on my list have won at least one world class event. Almost everyone else on the list has won at least 3 pro events at least at the level of the Sands Regency. Lee Van Corteza hasn't had the chance to go outside the Phillipines that much.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I still say Lassiter had nowhere NEAR the level of competition Efren has had. And by the way.. There's lots of people that have won a tournament over Efren that wouldn't play him for cash, even with backer's money!

Russ

 

[Terry Ardeno]

The "WE" I am talking about is all those who, like me, don't believe you have a leg to stand on in saying Lassiter automatically dominates Efren.

And I never made any declaration that Efren would win the matchup.. YOU are the one saying you "know what's what" here. My view is that it would be a close matchup. I personally don't think Lassiter would win in a long matchup, because the game has evolved too much since then. Lassiter did not have to deal with the overall level of safety play that Efren did..

The Filipinos as a whole were much better at safety play than Americans when Efren and Jose came over, and let's not forget... Efren had to pick up 3-Cushion/Balkline in the Phillipines because noone would touch him with a 10 foot pole on a pool table. He came over and saw the Americans as ridiculously easy to beat. He was spotting every American 2-3 games when they were betting on matches in his first tournament over in the U.S.

I am not submitting these examples to say why Efren would beat Wimpy tho.. I am only submitting them as reason why Lassiter would NOT dominate Efren. Would Wimpy in his prime beat Efren in his prime? Maybe.. But it sure would not be by 30 games in a race to 100...

Russ

Russ,
In the matter of safety play and kicking at balls, Efren has the HUGE edge.
But, allowing the rules changes that have happened since Lassiter's heyday, what makes you think that if he (Lassiter) could master all that he did, why is it impossible to believe that if he was playing under todays rules, he also would not learn and even master these modern aspects?

In one of your posts, you mentioned that he let the cue ball run around on the break. Did you know why? Lassiter had a break where he would hit the 1 ball, deflect into the side rail and come back again accross the rack, attempting (by design) to hit the 9 ball with the cue ball, getting a lot of extra action on the 9 ball in an attempt to sink it on the break. He was such a great shotmaker that where snow ended up didn't make much difference, as long as he could see the next object ball.

Nowhere did I ever say that Lassiter would win 100-70 in any match up. My choice / pick of the two is Lassiter. Yours is Reyes. We will never know for sure, but like I mentioned in post #40, this is my OPINION and it sure is fun to hear what others think.

And this is so important...NOWHERE did I ever say I "know what's what." I have never, ever stated anywhere that I am the only one who knows anything and I pride myself on trying real hard to be cordial to people who post on our forums. I know stuff you don't know and you know stuff that I don't know and there are others who know what we don't know.

Lastly, I got nothing against you. I very much enjoy discussing and debating about the pro players here. 90% of my posts relate to the pro players. I have no problem with differing views either.