Luther Lassiter's mechanics

[Terry Ardeno]

Whereas in any ONE tournament Efren won he might have had to play:

Archer, Pagulayan, Van Boening, Immonen, Engert, Hohmann, Davenport, Strickland, Bustamente, Alcano, Yang, Manalo, Orcullo, Ortmann, Souqet, Feijen, oh yeah, AND a "more experienced" Hall and Varner, Chia-Chang Wu, Deuel,

(Wait a second... my fingers are getting cramped... let me take a short break...)

Okay, here we go:

Fong Pang Chao, Rodney Morris, Lee Van Corteza, San Souci, Rempe, Raphael Martinez, Andam, Jeremy Jones, Daulton, Sambajon, Chamat, Medina, (Oh my gosh, how did I forget to put him in WAY DOWN HERE?) PARICA, Tony Drago, John Schmidt, Gabe Owen, Dennis Hatch, Van Den Berg, Luat, (GAH! fingers cramping again!)

Anyways... You get the point.. Let's be clear.. All these guys either ARE, or at one point WERE capable of winning any tournament in the world. Just about every single one of them have won at least 3-4 pro tournaments.

Let's look at your list again... Joe Russo, Al Coslosky???? No offense, but put both players at their prime, and you can put any of my picks above in the ring with them, and I'll bet my house my guy wins.

Larry Lisciotti, Jimmy Marino? Yeah, they are good players. Pick anyone in the bottom 15% of my list, and we'll call it even. Anyone above that, and you can get 6 to 5 on the money. Oh yeah.. And a game on the wire in a race to 11.

Note that I didn't even MENTION the other 200 players on the world scene that are capable of playing a "perfect match" against any of the top dogs on any given day. The pool world is a whole different animal today than it was 40 years ago.

You mentioned about 11 players who I think at their prime would stand a good chance to place in the top ten at a world even, in their prime. I think at least 30 on my list have won at least one world class event. Almost everyone else on the list has won at least 3 pro events at least at the level of the Sands Regency. Lee Van Corteza hasn't had the chance to go outside the Phillipines that much.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I still say Lassiter had nowhere NEAR the level of competition Efren has had. And by the way.. There's lots of people that have won a tournament over Efren that wouldn't play him for cash, even with backer's money!

Russ

And that was a good post.
Did you remember that there are now at least three times as many people in the world as there were in the 1960's? So there should be more quality players. And another thing, there are now people all over the world playing. Boy Bical (in Lassiter's days) never came to the USA.
But, Lassiter still dominated what was in front of him.

And I don't think you're being argumentative here at all. If anything, I fired the first snide salvo. I like this kinder, gentler Russ.

I still think Lassiter was the better 9 baller, but we'll never know for sure.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Terry,

Just saying "we'll never know for sure." makes me happy with the discussion. I guess I thought you were saying that Lassiter would dominate Efren.. (I know some others were.) And I was just taking offense to the idea that someone from a completely different era with completely different rules could be made a favorite over Efren.. I'm not even saying Efren would be a favorite if Lassiter was able to soak himself in today's pool environment for a few years.. I was just saying we don't know how Wimpy would handle the safeties.

A lot of Efren's excellent safety play comes from his billiards knowledge. I have 3-Cushion DVDs as well as pool DVDs, and I recognize many basic 3-Cushion shots in some of Efren's more spectacular return safeties.

If I had to peg anyone as a direct threat from that era though, it would be much more likely that Kelly or Worst would be a threat to Efren, due to their 3-Cushion play. I think they would have a better chance at recognizing the shots that Efren shoots, and would have the knowledge to pull them off accurately.

Either way, nice talking to you on this. I think we agree, both of these guys played strong enough that neither one is a prohibitive favorite.. If Wimpy could rise to the occasion, he would have a chance at dealing with Efren at his best.

Russ

 

[cuetechustla]

Terry,

Just saying "we'll never know for sure." makes me happy with the discussion. I guess I thought you were saying that Lassiter would dominate Efren.. (I know some others were.) And I was just taking offense to the idea that someone from a completely different era with completely different rules could be made a favorite over Efren.. I'm not even saying Efren would be a favorite if Lassiter was able to soak himself in today's pool environment for a few years.. I was just saying we don't know how Wimpy would handle the safeties.

A lot of Efren's excellent safety play comes from his billiards knowledge. I have 3-Cushion DVDs as well as pool DVDs, and I recognize many basic 3-Cushion shots in some of Efren's more spectacular return safeties.

If I had to peg anyone as a direct threat from that era though, it would be much more likely that Kelly or Worst would be a threat to Efren, due to their 3-Cushion play. I think they would have a better chance at recognizing the shots that Efren shoots, and would have the knowledge to pull them off accurately.

Either way, nice talking to you on this. I think we agree, both of these guys played strong enough that neither one is a prohibitive favorite.. If Wimpy could rise to the occasion, he would have a chance at dealing with Efren at his best.

Russ

I agree with you both....we'll never know.....

 

[pdcue]

What about Don Willis? Looks like Luther wasn't all that if he couldn't beat Don Willis link Also read what they say about the unknown player in Honolulu

What about Don Willis? They were road partners and Wimpy
was the better player.

Willis would notr even PLAY George Rood. Wimpy would.

Dale

 

[pdcue]

Its simple..explain a situation where he was better. Describe some of his achievements, in the pit of skill opposition, which shows he was a better player than E or E and these accomplishments were unprecedented.

I invite you to do the same thing about Earl and Ef vs Wimpy,
whoops, you are completely clueless about Luther's level
of play.
So answer me this.
How can you possibly even think that you know?

Dale

 

[pdcue]

Yeah yeah...I was exaggerating a little IMHO, I think Efren is past his prime in playing 9 ball and it shows I've been watching professional pool pay for the last 20 yrs...attending tournaments and good old accu-stat tapes

Twenty years is but the blink of an eye grasshopper.

BTW- -20 to 25 years ago Efren lost many matches to Varner,
Strikland, Hall, et al.

 

[cuetechustla]

What about Don Willis? They were road partners and Wimpy
was the better player.

Willis would notr even PLAY George Rood. Wimpy would.

Dale

Looks like Wimpy had strong competition...

From the link (Interview w/Jaffar 'Patch Eye' Basheer):

1P: You mean Don Willis?
JB: Don Willis. He played 9-Ball better than Wimpy.

1P: Did you bump into Don Willis?
JB: Yes, I did. He beat me in Cleveland when I first met him. I think they sent for him because I was beating so many people there. How many pool players have been around the world that you can?t beat? For instance, Don Willis and Wimpy Lassiter both went to Honolulu to play a man that I used to play every Sunday because I couldn?t believe what he was doing. I was stationed in Honolulu at the time and I used to go there every Sunday and play that man, a Chinaman. And Don Willis and Wimpy went there and couldn?t beat him. That?s back in the 60?s.

 

[cuetechustla]

I invite you to do the same thing about Earl and Ef vs Wimpy,
whoops, you are completely clueless about Luther's level
of play.
So answer me this.
How can you possibly even think that you know?

Dale

I asked first...so tell me what you know..or don't ya

 

[cuetechustla]

Twenty years is but the blink of an eye grasshopper.

BTW- -20 to 25 years ago Efren lost many matches to Varner,
Strikland, Hall, et al.

He might have lost then, but in his prime, I've never felt that NEITHER one of them could CONSISTENTLY beat Efren on the long haul....

 

[cuetechustla]

Lets take a slight break from Efren vs Wimpy talk for now

Russ brings up a good question...how deep was the competition back then vs now in a 9-ball WPC tournament? I read what Terry posted but I don't see a deep field of players. Was the quality as deep and great as it is today? In his prime, would Wimpy been able to win the 9-ball WPC 4 times in todays era like he did before and dominate the pool world in 9-ball? Could he have gotten through all these player, one by one/race to 13, and did this?

Alex Pagulayan
Buddy Hall
Cliff Joyner
Corey Duel
Dennis Hatch
Dennis Orcollo
Earl Strickland
Efren Reyes
Francisco Bustmante
Gabe Owen
Jeremy Jones
Jim Rempe
John Schmidt
Johnny Archer
Jose Parica
Lee Van Corteza
Marlon Manalo
Mika Immonen
Mike Davis
Mike Sigel
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Raphael Martinez
Rodney Morris
Ronnie Alcano
Rudolpho Luat
San Souci
Shane Van Boening
Shannon Daulton
Thorsten Hohmann

 

[hangemhigh]

What about Don Willis? They were road partners and Wimpy
was the better player.

Willis would notr even PLAY George Rood. Wimpy would.

Dale

I think George Rood could probally give all these speculators the 8 TODAY!

 

[cuetechustla]

I think George Rood could probally give all these speculators the 8 TODAY!

Claims he beat Wimpy...check out this interview

link

 

[cuetechustla]

So Terry, did you change mind since 2003 Look what you posted

link

Quote from Terry Ardeno:

One valid and unbias way to consider who is the G.O.A.T. (Greatest Of All Time) is to compare CREDENTIALS, aka Titles Won.
Let's match up Earl (6/8/1961) vs Efren (8/26/1954) for an example.... Earl has 6 World 9-ball championships & 5 US Open 9-ball championships. Efren has 2 World 9-ball championships & 1 US Open 9-ball title. (His U.S. debut was at "Red's" 9 Ball Open in January 1985, so the excuse that Efren has not had enough time to play in America & thereby accumulate titles is not a valid one) BOTH have won nearly a 100 or so other "minor" 9 ball titles, but these are considered "Major" titles. Something else to consider...Earl is a 5 time Billiard Digest Player of the year, Efren has had that prestigious award bestowed on him ONCE, in 1995. ***So, on this basis (Major Credentials) how could someone argue that Efren is greater than Earl? On alleged money matches & gambling prowness? How could that possibly be fairly measured??? Plus, Earl has given up gambling, so does that mean he is the lesser player? Earl Strickland is, in my opinion (AND on the basis of total MAJOR Championships won) the greatest 9-ball player, ever.
***Now, something else...when speaking of these 2 as who is the greater ALL AROUND champion, on the same basis as that mentioned above, I think Efren has the better credentials.
For example, in addition to those named above, Earl has 1 World 8-ball title on his resume. But, Efren has 4 World 8-ball titles, 1 World 1 pocket championship & 1 US Open 1 pocket title. Earl IS the greatest 9 ball champion ever (in my opinion) followed by my number 2 pick, Luther Lassiter. Efren is a great all around champion, but Nick Varner has the following in his All Around Credentials...3 World 9 ball titles, 2 US Open 9-ball championships, 2 World 14.1 Championships, 2 World 8-ball championships, 2 World 1 Pocket titles & 1 World Bank Pool title. ***Nick is WORLD CHAMPION IN 5 Different pool disciplines (9-ball, 8-ball, 1 pocket, 14.1 & banks) NOBODY ELSE has EVER done THAT!!! This is an amazing accomplishment! Nick is by far the greatest ALL AROUND player when considering major titles.

 

[bigskyjake]

Lets take a slight break from Efren vs Wimpy talk for now

Russ brings up a good question...how deep was the competition back then vs now in a 9-ball WPC tournament? I read what Terry posted but I don't see a deep field of players. Was the quality as deep and great as it is today? In his prime, would Wimpy been able to win the 9-ball WPC 4 times in todays era like he did before and dominate the pool world in 9-ball? Could he have gotten through all these player, one by one/race to 13, and did this?

Alex Pagulayan
Buddy Hall
Cliff Joyner
Corey Duel
Dennis Hatch
Dennis Orcollo
Earl Strickland
Efren Reyes
Francisco Bustmante
Gabe Owen
Jeremy Jones
Jim Rempe
John Schmidt
Johnny Archer
Jose Parica
Lee Van Corteza
Marlon Manalo
Mika Immonen
Mike Davis
Mike Sigel
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Raphael Martinez
Rodney Morris
Ronnie Alcano
Rudolpho Luat
San Souci
Shane Van Boening
Shannon Daulton
Thorsten Hohmann

Wimpy or Harold would have crushed most of that lineup

 

[Terry Ardeno]

So Terry, did you change mind since 2003 Look what you posted

link

Quote from Terry Ardeno:

One valid and unbias way to consider who is the G.O.A.T. (Greatest Of All Time) is to compare CREDENTIALS, aka Titles Won.
Let's match up Earl (6/8/1961) vs Efren (8/26/1954) for an example.... Earl has 6 World 9-ball championships & 5 US Open 9-ball championships. Efren has 2 World 9-ball championships & 1 US Open 9-ball title. (His U.S. debut was at "Red's" 9 Ball Open in January 1985, so the excuse that Efren has not had enough time to play in America & thereby accumulate titles is not a valid one) BOTH have won nearly a 100 or so other "minor" 9 ball titles, but these are considered "Major" titles. Something else to consider...Earl is a 5 time Billiard Digest Player of the year, Efren has had that prestigious award bestowed on him ONCE, in 1995. ***So, on this basis (Major Credentials) how could someone argue that Efren is greater than Earl? On alleged money matches & gambling prowness? How could that possibly be fairly measured??? Plus, Earl has given up gambling, so does that mean he is the lesser player? Earl Strickland is, in my opinion (AND on the basis of total MAJOR Championships won) the greatest 9-ball player, ever.
***Now, something else...when speaking of these 2 as who is the greater ALL AROUND champion, on the same basis as that mentioned above, I think Efren has the better credentials.
For example, in addition to those named above, Earl has 1 World 8-ball title on his resume. But, Efren has 4 World 8-ball titles, 1 World 1 pocket championship & 1 US Open 1 pocket title. Earl IS the greatest 9 ball champion ever (in my opinion) followed by my number 2 pick, Luther Lassiter. Efren is a great all around champion, but Nick Varner has the following in his All Around Credentials...3 World 9 ball titles, 2 US Open 9-ball championships, 2 World 14.1 Championships, 2 World 8-ball championships, 2 World 1 Pocket titles & 1 World Bank Pool title. ***Nick is WORLD CHAMPION IN 5 Different pool disciplines (9-ball, 8-ball, 1 pocket, 14.1 & banks) NOBODY ELSE has EVER done THAT!!! This is an amazing accomplishment! Nick is by far the greatest ALL AROUND player when considering major titles.

Cuetecthustla,

This is getting very weird.

One more time, nice and easy for you. IN MY OPINION, Earl Strickland is the greatest 9 ball TOURNAMENT player ever, followed closely by Luther Lassiter. Luther Lassiter is the greatest 9 baller ever based on his superiority at gambling plus his major tournaments won.

Efren Reyes, IN MY OPINION, is the greatest All-Around player ever, followed by Nick Varner. I give Varner the nod over guys like Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, etc based on the longevity of his career.

Since you've been asking some nice questions, I would like to ask you one.
Here goes....If Efren Reyes is the greatest 9 baller of all time, better than Lassiter, Strickland, Sigel, etc....Then why did he only win 1 World 9 Ball Championship? (The post you quoted had a 2 instead of 1-my mis-type)

And why did Lassiter, Strickland and Sigel win so many??

 

[cuetechustla]

Cuetecthustla,

This is getting very weird.

One more time, nice and easy for you. IN MY OPINION, Earl Strickland is the greatest 9 ball TOURNAMENT player ever, followed closely by Luther Lassiter. Luther Lassiter is the greatest 9 baller ever based on his superiority at gambling plus his major tournaments won.

Efren Reyes, IN MY OPINION, is the greatest All-Around player ever, followed by Nick Varner. I give Varner the nod over guys like Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, etc based on the longevity of his career.

Since you've been asking some nice questions, I would like to ask you one.
Here goes....If Efren Reyes is the greatest 9 baller of all time, better than Lassiter, Strickland, Sigel, etc....Then why did he only win 1 World 9 Ball Championship? (The post you quoted had a 2 instead of 1-my mis-type)

And why did Lassiter, Strickland and Sigel win so many??

Terry you're the one weird. Changing your story 3 yrs later You wrote it...not me..Go back and read what you wrote

In the Billiards Digest post NOWHERE did you mention best 9 ball TOURNAMENT player. Its is only now, you TRY to differentiate and add words that wasn't there before. Don't try to back peddle for something you didn't say before. You said it, Earl is the greatest 9 ball champion.

Lassiter, Strickland and Sigel are all great champions. During their era, they dominated the playing field. That's how it was. Their skill level was unprecedented at that time. I'm not sure why Efren didn't win. Maybe I'll ask him one day at a tournament and see what he says. I just don't know...

 

[cuetechustla]

Terry to clarify what you've been writing, so everyone on this board can see, In your honest opinion, is Earl the 'greatest 9 ball tournament player' or is he 'Luthers equal in 9 ball tournament'

As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But, Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.

One more time, nice and easy for you. IN MY OPINION, Earl Strickland is the greatest 9 ball TOURNAMENT player ever, followed closely by Luther Lassiter. Luther Lassiter is the greatest 9 baller ever based on his superiority at gambling plus his major tournaments won.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry to clarify what you've been writing, so everyone on this board can see, In your honest opinion, is Earl the 'greatest 9 ball tournament player' or is he 'Luthers equal in 9 ball tournament'

Read 'em all again real slow so you can comprehend what is written at your speed. Nothing has changed. In fact, it really doesn't matter what I write. You're just going to keep it going until you hear what you want to hear. But at the threat of gunpoint, I'm not changing my opinion.

Luther Lassiter was the greatest over-all best 9 baller ever. (Taking into consideration major tournament wins and his gambling ability)

Followed by Strickland. (Equal if not better tournament record, but not as great a money player as Lassiter)

Next comes Sigel.

 

[cuetechustla]

Read 'em all again real slow so you can comprehend what is written at your speed. Nothing has changed. In fact, it really doesn't matter what I write. You're just going to keep it going until you hear what you want to hear. But at the threat of gunpoint, I'm not changing my opinion.

Luther Lassiter was the greatest over-all best 9 baller ever. (Taking into consideration major tournament wins and his gambling ability)

Followed by Strickland. (Equal if not better tournament record, but not as great a money player as Lassiter)

Next comes Sigel.

Terry,

I don't need to convince you to think Earl or Efren is better than Luther. You've dug your own 'hole' for the forgetfulness in your posts on Billiards Digest vs AZ Billiards...and you keep ducking what you wrote. And now everyone on this board will learn not to have confidence in your opinion. I don't care anymore and it doesn't matter.......

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry,

I don't need to convince you to think Earl or Efren is better than Luther. You've dug your own 'hole' for the forgetfulness in your posts on Billiards Digest vs AZ Billiards...and your keep ducking what you wrote. And now everyone on this board will learn not to have confidence in your opinion. I don't care anymore and it doesn't matter.......

Cuetechustla,

I'm sorry you're mad at me. I really tried explaining over and over why I have the opinion I do. I don't understand what I can do or say to make you feel better. This is not a matter of life and death, this is pool talk by people who love our great sport. I'm not out to try and prove anyone else wrong or to make them look stupid. But I'm not going to be bullied into changing my opinion just because your's is different than mine.

And for the record, my previous posts speak for themselves as to who I thought was the best and when. The only thing I changed is a 2 into a 1 in the matter of World 9 Ball Championships that Reyes won. I mis-typed 2 instead of a 1.

This forum should help make all of us pals and not foes. We'll interact again in the future and who know, we may even agree on something.

I gave you good / positive rep points as a gesture of peace and best wishes to you.