Magic Rack + Sardo Rack, we don't need them

[jrt30004]

This is what I do not like about forums. Something is lost in print. I was not mocking you at all. I was being serious and trying to understand what you are saying. There is no offense intended. If I miscommunicated, I will take the blame for that. If you knew me, you would know that I take everyone seriously.

then thats fine and i am still not buying your rules. if it's a called shot game then your solution is no better. the player calls no shot just hits the balls and continues to shoot. by your logic the breaker should call a ball and pocket and break. if he doesn't make that ball his turn is over. just like the rules in 14:1. you either call a ball or call safety break. that is the only way to make it fair. your rules are no fair solution. the fact that the players in your room use them and they like them does not mean they are right.

 

[jrt30004]

Just give up man... I tried having a logical discussion a few threads ago, and as soon as one point was nullified, the argument suddenly became about something else.

I really think this whole "no conflict rules" should be left under the "to each is own" category. some people like it, some don't; i dont really care one way or the other; and playing in a NCR event would NOT stop me from hitting the break I usually hit.

sometimes i try even if i know it's not going to work i thought it was woth a shot.

 

[Black-Balled]

Ok! Lets just throw all the balls on the table and shoot whereever the cueball lies. Nuff said! LOL!!!:grin:

That's how we do it on the 3c table!

There may be more merit to this that visible from the surface...!

 

[jrt30004]

Anyone who vaguely knows me, knows aI am famous for misspellings and my computer ignorance.
I reped this man for his post this morning and by accident red reped him. For that I am truely very sorry. I have contacted admin to attempt to get this changed.
Now the funny part: i was unaware that my PM's were full so the only way
JRT30004 could notify me and asked why, with positive comments, I had red reped him was by green repping me. As i explained I can be a sick individual at times, but i am still laughing about this. I receive green rep when most would have sent me a Grenade and the pin pulled!
Again I apologize and assure you it was not intentional and I am trying to get this rectified now.
i guess I am pretty twisted because I just can't quit laughing. A i said in the pm, I
hope we meet because I do owe you at least a drink and you just seem like a guy I would like to hang around with a bit.
Again i am sorry!

peeps got your back. i've gotten some green to make up for the accidental red - you gotta love the az karma:grin:

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Paul,

I can appreciate your efforts to try and change a part of the game. IMO your methods could use an overhaul? Your constant use of the word "SLOP" when a player makes a ball on the break is IMO insulting to all those players that have spent time and money practicing to increase the possibility to make the ball on the break. IMO this is not called slop. IMO this is called 'the result that can be expected with time, practice and a great break cue'. IMO players are now spending more time practicing their break than they ever did 20 years ago. There is better equipment and much better cloth and tables availble now than there ever was.

Your idea has merit, but goes against the very popular norm. Taunting posts to incite negative responses is a very old way to gather the results you think you need. But, what are you going to do if you don't get them? Give up?

Meantime, all you are doing is gathering info from only the players that care to post and that also have a computer. Not much of a demographic for your study I would suspect.

Try going to different pool halls and gather some real feed back, from real pool players. All levels of skill need not take part. You want only those that dislike your proposal, correct? Your words, " you don't want the responses that agree with you, just the ones that disagree and will help you justify your proposal better.

Get back to us when you can.

 

[realkingcobra]

Call me old fashioned or what ever, but I've never believed in any kind of racking system...that removed the human error factor...and turned the art of racking the balls...into a precision rack That being said, the art of the break is what makes these magic racks, Sardo racks...and all the likes....work, and fail...at the same time. No matter how much one may not like the "Perfect" rack...it's available to BOTH players...no different than the old fashioned triangle rack...and rack your own. When ANYONE...of any age, can be guaranteed to make wing balls on the break...then the sport of pool has really fallen off the cliff and been turned into a game for sure. But, never the less...the most powerfull break...is no guarantee to win the game either, as there are plenty of skills needed to accomplish that...AFTER the break. What you're asking for...with your next shot after the break guarantee...is just another way of saying..."because your break is so good...I'm going to have to handicap you and make it fair....for the player that don't practice the break as much as you do"...instead of telling the player that can't seem to make that wing ball on the break...go home and practice some more...and YOU will be able to make it too when it's YOUR turn to break:wink:

Glen

 

[u12armresl]

Do you know the "Dudesons"

There's one particular thing that I'm concerned about. If it's rack your own and the opponent isn't allowed to inspect the rack, the rack might be often still too loose on the bottom and in 9-ball the 9-ball will go towards either corner pocket. Now, I understand that the money ball is spotted if it goes, but the trouble is that in these situations it often doesn't go, but instead stays close to either corner pocket. It makes a lot of combinations and caroms on the 9-ball available.

I say this because I vividly remember those days when I played 9-ball in dodgy clubs where the equipment was poor and the opponents made sloppy racks. The nine would go or it would stay near the corner pocket.

These "no conflict" rules then still reward making racks where the bottom of the rack is loose. That's why I think we need some racking method that guarantees a good rack. Other than that, I think these rules are a good idea. I don't know whether they will ever gain popularity, but I for one think they are worth trying out at least.

One final point: I think you've misunderstood the point of things like magic rack. The idea is not to get everyone make the wing ball, that's just the side-effect of having a perfect rack every time and racking so that the one ball is on the spot. It's an exploitation of the configuration that some players found out (Corey Deuel perhaps?)

What players want is a reliable racking process, ie. that everyone gets the same rack, but which doesn't have a easy soft-break that guarantees that you make a ball. I don't know if it's possible, but it's not the intention that everyone should be able to make the wing ball in 9-ball. The ideal thing would be that everyone had a perfect rack every time and that you'd have to break real hard.

 

[stljohnny]

Call me old fashioned or what ever, but I've never believed in any kind of racking system...that removed the human error factor...and turned the art of racking the balls...into a precision rack That being said, the art of the break is what makes these magic racks, Sardo racks...and all the likes....work, and fail...at the same time. No matter how much one may not like the "Perfect" rack...it's available to BOTH players...no different than the old fashioned triangle rack...and rack your own. When ANYONE...of any age, can be guaranteed to make wing balls on the break...then the sport of pool has really fallen off the cliff and been turned into a game for sure. But, never the less...the most powerfull break...is no guarantee to win the game either, as there are plenty of skills needed to accomplish that...AFTER the break. What you're asking for...with your next shot after the break guarantee...is just another way of saying..."because your break is so good...I'm going to have to handicap you and make it fair....for the player that don't practice the break as much as you do"...instead of telling the player that can't seem to make that wing ball on the break...go home and practice some more...and YOU will be able to make it too when it's YOUR turn to break:wink:

Glen

I'll say this too: I have the magic rack, and it does not *guarantee* the wing ball every time. You still have to have a good break, and be able to knowingly adjust the break according to the results. Speed is a factor, as is the angle you hit it. What the MBR does do is prevent the 9 from going in the corner, without being kicked in, guaranteed.

and RKC has a good point - that "perfect rack" is available to your opponent as well.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Glen said: the art of the break is what makes these magic racks, Sardo racks...and all the likes....work, and fail...at the same time.

No wiser words have been said about this whole topic. I can’t add anything to it.

Glen said: What you're asking for...with your next shot after the break guarantee...is just another way of saying..."because your break is so good...I'm going to have to handicap you and make it fair

You know I have been away from this game for more than 30 years. That does not mean I have not followed its development. Here we are in 2010, and the front end of our games continues to be in turmoil. The 35 year old U.S. Open continues to try to plug a leak only to have more leaks appear. It is obvious that this part of our game is unresolved business. If the current track holds, I can check back in a couple of years and the rules will be different and in a couple more years they will be different yet again. It is every tournament, everywhere. The thrust of my interest is really pretty straight forward. Resolve it. So far, every effort has just created more negative issues. All the problems are rooted in the ball on the break. Protect it and the same old problems persist. Once you say “breaker shoots after a legal break”, it is case closed and all the negatives just go away. I assure you, this is not about fairness, skill, parity, safety, or anything else other than moving the game along quickly, smoothly and in a way that makes sense.

I am glad you have something to say about this. More would be good.

 

[ridinda9]

I'll say this too: I have the magic rack, and it does not *guarantee* the wing ball every time. You still have to have a good break, and be able to knowingly adjust the break according to the results. Speed is a factor, as is the angle you hit it. What the MBR does do is prevent the 9 from going in the corner, without being kicked in, guaranteed.

and RKC has a good point - that "perfect rack" is available to your opponent as well.

there are no guarantees , Johnny - the kick off the other ball is predictable , with practice - that's simple physics . I'm somewhere near 40% 9-on-the-snap with the magic rack . Practice , practice , practice . . .

Oh , & 7' vs 9' table matters too - the angle IS different . . . .

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Excuse me Paul, what do you mean by this statement?

Are you guessing with this statement? or is it just your opinion?

The 35 year old U.S. Open continues to try to plug a leak only to have more leaks appear.

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen said: the art of the break is what makes these magic racks, Sardo racks...and all the likes....work, and fail...at the same time.

No wiser words have been said about this whole topic. I can’t add anything to it.

Glen said: What you're asking for...with your next shot after the break guarantee...is just another way of saying..."because your break is so good...I'm going to have to handicap you and make it fair

You know I have been away from this game for more than 30 years. That does not mean I have not followed its development. Here we are in 2010, and the front end of our games continues to be in turmoil. The 35 year old U.S. Open continues to try to plug a leak only to have more leaks appear. It is obvious that this part of our game is unresolved business. If the current track holds, I can check back in a couple of years and the rules will be different and in a couple more years they will be different yet again. It is every tournament, everywhere. The thrust of my interest is really pretty straight forward. Resolve it. So far, every effort has just created more negative issues. All the problems are rooted in the ball on the break. Protect it and the same old problems persist. Once you say “breaker shoots after a legal break”, it is case closed and all the negatives just go away. I assure you, this is not about fairness, skill, parity, safety, or anything else other than moving the game along quickly, smoothly and in a way that makes sense.

I am glad you have something to say about this. More would be good.

What I was really saying was...winner breaks, 9 on the snap is a win, I don't care what type, or which kind of rack is used...and an 11 rack run is a shut out...and if you can do that without your opponent getting to the table...that's fair and longer races to say 21 or 25 in world class tournaments.....instead of the double elimination format

Glen

 

[Paul Schofield]

Excuse me Paul, what do you mean by this statement?

Are you guessing with this statement? or is it just your opinion?

All of this is IMO: Remember Tom, these rules are different than last year. As soon as you say that it is rack your own, and there is a rack checking process, and an opponent can make a player only re-rack once, new issues appear, and new questions arise. This just means another rule change for next year. I don't think there should be any questions in any-body's mind about anything (where racking and breaking is concerned). The games need to move on without all this.

1100 reads on this thread in 24 hours?

 

[vincentwu817]

Hey Paul, I don't have anything against your ideas. But if people are getting annoyed then try not to start so many topics on it. I do believe that something needs to be changed in the game of 9 ball when the majority of the racks are just too easy for most players and the deciding factors of many matches comes down to the break. Breaking hard and getting the cue ball in the center is a difficult technique to learn but even with such skill, sometimes good results in a short match is not rewarded. The luck of the breaks can easily become a deciding factor that an inferior player beats say a world champion.

I am always open to listen to your ideas and keep up the effort. But being so aggressive on this issue on this forum has a negative effect upon your ideas, and its obvious most of the people here do not have your support. If I were you I'd try to get in touch with people who has the ability to make the difference, and see what they have to say. Goodluck.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Hey Paul, I don't have anything against your ideas. But if people are getting annoyed then try not to start so many topics on it. I do believe that something needs to be changed in the game of 9 ball when the majority of the racks are just too easy for most players and the deciding factors of many matches comes down to the break. Breaking hard and getting the cue ball in the center is a difficult technique to learn but even with such skill, sometimes good results in a short match is not rewarded. The luck of the breaks can easily become a deciding factor that an inferior player beats say a world champion.

I am always open to listen to your ideas and keep up the effort. But being so aggressive on this issue on this forum has a negative effect upon your ideas, and its obvious most of the people here do not have your support. If I were you I'd try to get in touch with people who has the ability to make the difference, and see what they have to say. Goodluck.

Thanks Vincent, I checked and I have only started 3 threads in the last five weeks: Pattern Racking on 9-12, Smash Break = Slop on 10-12, and the Magic Rack yesterday. I think the topics hit a raw nerve. They were highly controversial. You could very well be right though. I may have come off as aggressive. I don't mean to be.

 

[jrt30004]

The thrust of my interest is really pretty straight forward. Resolve it. So far, every effort has just created more negative issues. All the problems are rooted in the ball on the break. Protect it and the same old problems persist. Once you say “breaker shoots after a legal break”, it is case closed and all the negatives just go away. I assure you, this is not about fairness, skill, parity, safety, or anything else other than moving the game along quickly, smoothly and in a way that makes sense.

I am glad you have something to say about this. More would be good.

how does your idea make sense? if you say a traditional break is slop, what is your version? your version is the worst kind of slop. do nothing, make nothing, and get rewarded by shooting again. and if you don't change rules to make a game more fair, your not helping the game. your just changing it to make you happy. you want to move the rack along more quickly everyone plays rack your own. you get one minute to rack, your opponent gets ten seconds to check and 9 on the break is no win. can't get it done in that time, warning, slow rack again loose your break, do it continuously during an event start loosing games. done. if you can't rack the balls in a minute and someone can't see that you've slugged it in ten seconds they both deserve to be penalized. i am still waiting from my earlier post on an explanation of how your version of the break is not slop. you are not calling a ball yet you are shooting again.......sounds like slop pool to me.

 

[Paul Schofield]

how does your idea make sense? if you say a traditional break is slop, what is your version? your version is the worst kind of slop. do nothing, make nothing, and get rewarded by shooting again. and if you don't change rules to make a game more fair, your not helping the game. your just changing it to make you happy. you want to move the rack along more quickly everyone plays rack your own. you get one minute to rack, your opponent gets ten seconds to check and 9 on the break is no win. can't get it done in that time, warning, slow rack again loose your break, do it continuously during an event start loosing games. done. if you can't rack the balls in a minute and someone can't see that you've slugged it in ten seconds they both deserve to be penalized. i am still waiting from my earlier post on an explanation of how your version of the break is not slop. you are not calling a ball yet you are shooting again.......sounds like slop pool to me.

I am going to try this from another angle yet. Without any hesitation or any doubt, I would be all for, and in full favor of, and would like to keep, the ball on the break, no matter how it goes in. I just don't see how you keep it and avoid all the conflict and chicanery that plagues the front end of our favorite games.

 

[jrt30004]

I am going to try this from another angle yet. Without any hesitation or any doubt, I would be all for, and in full favor of, and would like to keep, the ball on the break, no matter how it goes in. I just don't see how you keep it and avoid all the conflict and chicanery that plagues the front end of our favorite games.

what conflict and chicanery? i play in at least a tournament a week and i play bca (i also play apa but most of the lower skill levels can't rack or break very well so i won't include them in this) i haven't had any conflict or chicanery or any other maladies from rack your own or rack for each other. i have asked twice now for you to explain your self and all you are doing is talking in circles so iam going to bow out of this conversation on this note - you made your rules. you like them. you use them. all you are doing with these threads is mental masturbation. you are trying to get under peoples skin and create - wait for it - conflict. you don't want input, you don't want critique, you want to start s*it with people so your rules keep getting brought up. no thanks. i am done. and your idea still sucks in my humble opinion. please tell me again the name of your room so i don't make the mistake of ever playing there if i happen to travel wherever you are.

 

[schoonerboy]

How about rack your own and opponent spots the cue-ball in a pre-defined area (break box, anywhere a ball width off the rails, etc.). If your opponent sees something funny with the rack they can compensate by different placement of the cue-ball. It behooves you to standardize the rack and also adds another element of strategy to the rack and break. A good breaker would still be able to adjust for less than optimal cue-ball position.

 

[ironman]

I have been asking for some time for someone to make a plausible case for Eight-Ball. Here is a called shot game but a player is required to slop a ball in on the break in order to get his first shot. The only explanation I ever get is: "That is what the rules are."

Why not just invent a rack that wires the corner to the pocket and keep shooting. makes about as much sense!