Making a Goldcrown 4 play like a Diamond ProAM

John Daminato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it possible to get a list in order of priority of what I need to do to make this table play better and have my practice transfer over from it to a Diamond table? Im in the market to get a used GC4 with brand new Simonis 860 HR Tournament Blue.

Pockets:
Double shimmed and how should these shims be cut?
 

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
This question is best asked in the "ask the mechanic" sub forum here on AZ billiards.


Soon, Glen (RealKingCobra) will be around to give you some advice. He is the best table mechanic on the planet, and an expert on all things related to pool tables.


For a quick answer, to make it play as close to a Diamond as possible, you'll need:

1. Artemis cushions ...

2. 3/16" neoprene facings of a 60 durometer rating (if I remember right).

3. Will have to have the rails extended, because if they are shimmed - it will not play like a Diamond. It will play like a shimmed GC, which usually sucks. The rails will be extended, and cut to the correct angles (141 degrees, 15 degree on the inside). That's what the facings will then go on. That's for pro-cut 4.5" pockets. There are several threads in that sub-forum that contain pictures of the actual job of extending the sub-rails, gluing the Artemis cushions on, doing the facings etcetera.


Of course, all of this needs to be done by someone who is very competent and experienced in doing this kind of work. I would not ask some typical local table mechanic to do anything more than level and re-cloth.


Generally, what you want done is called "Diamondizing" a table. They'll also level it well and do other tweaks for stability and playability. Plus install the Simonis correctly. That makes a big difference.


It won't be cheap, but it will play well. However, only a Diamond truly plays like a Diamond...but can get close. One thing that will not be Diamond like, is the shelf. The part of the slate where the pocket is. Diamond's are deeper.
 

DallasHopps

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you haven't yet bought a gold crown and you're not almost stealing it price wise, I'd wait on a deal on a diamond. After you've paid out to diamondize a gold crown, your savings will be minimal and you still won't have a diamond. That was my experience.
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it possible to get a list in order of priority of what I need to do to make this table play better and have my practice transfer over from it to a Diamond table? Im in the market to get a used GC4 with brand new Simonis 860 HR Tournament Blue.

Pockets:
Double shimmed and how should these shims be cut?

A. You should probably define what you mean by 'play like a Diamond'.
2. It's all in the Mechanic.

As others said, if you want a table that plays like a Diamond, get a Diamond.

Sure, you can take steps to make your camaro drive like a corvette, but it will never be a corvette and in the end, you will have spent enough to have bought the damn corvette anyway.

That said, a GC with extended subrails, Diamond Black rubber and 860 is a great setup.

Dubstep fan here...you got anything to share, Mr. DJ?:cool:
 

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
Diamond tables command a higher price on the used market than do Gold Crowns.

I would say that if you can find a ProAm at $3,000 or less, it will be better to get that. $3,500 range like they used to be priced for used a few years back would make the GC a more attractive option.


Some people are stealing GC's these days, less than $1,000 from sellers in desperation.


A "Diamondizing" would cost more than $1,000 easily ....figure, that the Artemis rubber alone is over $300. The cloth is over $250 ...there's moving the table, setting it up, leveling, all the rail work, then putting the cloth on. Local guys here want $300 for moves, $300 for cloth, $300 for setup and level, $250 for rails....you get the idea. And that's without sub-rail extension, which is an involved process.


You would have to come in close to the $1,000 mark on the GC, then after spending on the "Diamondizing" you will not be very far off from what an actual used ProAm costs.


May not be worth it. ProAm has some advantages and features. It has the 1 piece slate. All the slate levelers. The better leg levelers. Superior frame. Some have the Dymondwood rails (virtually indestructible). The rails are less prone to warp with the laminate type construction. Best ball return. Pockets and surfaces do not damage or scuff up the cue. Table makes less noise when you play on it than a Gold Crown. It's way more solid in every way than the GC. The one-piece slate alone is a great feature, because you can tweak the level of the table in areas, and not have a seam to deal with or pop.


Here's how I look at it, if you shim the table thinking to get the pockets like the Diamond, it will not play like a Diamond at all. That is why the rails (wood part) has to be extended, so that the pocket facings are standard thickness. Shimmed means adding more facings, which makes them real bouncy and they play weird. Plus the angles won't be right anyway.


In order to get the job done right, you must go with a mechanic that has done this kind of work before and who has a good reputation. Preferably one of the guys who posts in the mechanic section on this forum. Do not trust some local installer to do that and end up with good results.


That said, to do the job right is going to cost some money. Get a quote and compare. Chances are, it's going to be better to just buy the Diamond. They are now selling under $3,000, in the mid to high 2K range.


Only thing I can say contrary to that is, if you think a shimmed down Gold Crown plays fine, or the pockets simply being tighter or smaller simulates a Diamond in your opinion and it the rest don't matter to you, or you don't mind or care....then it will not be as expensive of a job to get the table installed and just shimmed down. You could also skip the Artemis rubber, and go with Diamond Black rubber, which is less than $100. I know guys who are not sensitive to the differences, and a tight pocket is a tight pocket they don't care it's all the same to them. If that's how you feel about it, you won't mind a shimmed GC. I personally think heavily shimmed pockets play bad.


To each his own.
 

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
Glen took my friends old table and rebuilt the rails making it play very much like my Diamond. Call him and set it up for him to do when he travels your direction. I promise it's well worth the wait.
 

John Daminato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
a lot of this info is truly great, I didnt realize how many different options there were to tweak a table...Thank you. Here's why I didnt get a Diamond, for one its out of my price range that I allotted for this project, 2. I couldnt actually find a used one in this area, not in the $3,500.00 range, otherwise I may have just did it. 3. More importantly I wanted a table to do drills on. Its going in my Living Room and with the dimensions i have, I technically won't be able to play games on it. Aprox 10% of the shots you can shoot on a table will be eliminated by obstructions.

Here is what I ended up going with and it comes Sunday. So Im more interested in what you guys have to say about Kim Steels. I got a ok deal on a Kim Steel, delivered, set up with brand New 860HR Tournament blue and Pro Aramith Balls. I told the mechanic to bring what ever he may need to bring to make the pockets a little tighter. I played on KS's when I was a kid and I thought they were good, although they were brand new and what did I really know about playability. Definitely not a popular table brand in Chicago and GC's rule the area. Diamond is not a popular brand here either, only two spots I know that have them and they are technically not pool halls. I did some research and it seems like people that know tables say the Kim Steel is a fine table and if set up properly is comparable to a GC.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
a lot of this info is truly great, I didnt realize how many different options there were to tweak a table...Thank you. Here's why I didnt get a Diamond, for one its out of my price range that I allotted for this project, 2. I couldnt actually find a used one in this area, not in the $3,500.00 range, otherwise I may have just did it. 3. More importantly I wanted a table to do drills on. Its going in my Living Room and with the dimensions i have, I technically won't be able to play games on it. Aprox 10% of the shots you can shoot on a table will be eliminated by obstructions.

Here is what I ended up going with and it comes Sunday. So Im more interested in what you guys have to say about Kim Steels. I got a ok deal on a Kim Steel, delivered, set up with brand New 860HR Tournament blue and Pro Aramith Balls. I told the mechanic to bring what ever he may need to bring to make the pockets a little tighter. I played on KS's when I was a kid and I thought they were good, although they were brand new and what did I really know about playability. Definitely not a popular table brand in Chicago and GC's rule the area. Diamond is not a popular brand here either, only two spots I know that have them and they are technically not pool halls. I did some research and it seems like people that know tables say the Kim Steel is a fine table and if set up properly is comparable to a GC.

I'd find a GC II or III before KS.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Chances are, it's going to be better to just buy the Diamond. They are now selling under $3,000, in the mid to high 2K range. ...

But be aware that many used Diamond tables will not have had the rails recalibrated to current Diamond standards and some will not have Artemis rubber. So to bring such a table up to snuff is still a considerable additional expense.
 

poolhustler

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
" I had a Dream.........."

To have Glen set up my GCII table to the new Diamond specs. Well, so much for the best of plans. Glen subbed it out to some local guy who he trained. The rails were supposed to be done while I was on a 3 week trip to the Phils. I came back into town expecting the rails to be ready to go they weren't even touched.

Fast forward a couple weeks, the guy shows up to do the table. He sets it up with new cloth ok and then tells me that its extra to level it. As if I didn't pay him enough?? I got pricing from Glen which included levelling, didn't haggle at all this guy wants more money?? F'k me!!!

So the guy leaves and I notice that the cloth on top of the rails is bubbling up in a couple spots and the feather strip is high. I call him up to schedule him back to fix it and he tells me to go ahead and just push the feather strips into place. I ask him what happens if I F up the cloth or something. Well we got nowhere, so I went ahead and fixed that myself.

On top of that, the side pockets were to be set up at 4 3/4", 1/2" bigger than the corner pockets. They were made at 5". Another F up.

The the play begins. The table plays pretty good except that it doesn't roll level and ALL the corner and side pocket castings come loose. I had to pull the pockets out and retighten all the castings.

Not a great experience.

Moral of the story, how ever you want you table to play, make sure that you get a qualified table mechanic to set it up.

I am waiting for Glen to show up ay day now!!! :D
 
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9 on the snap

Budweiser fears me
Silver Member
I agree. Obviously the OP prefers the way that Diamonds play. I like a good Gold Crown, but for my money, Diamonds are where it's at!:thumbup:

I like Diamonds too, and are happy to play on either. I think I am gonna go home (I am still at the office) and take some of my brother in laws money on my GCIV, and have a few Budweisers also. Have a great weekend!:thumbup:
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like Diamonds too, and are happy to play on either. I think I am gonna go home (I am still at the office) and take some of my brother in laws money on my GCIV, and have a few Budweisers also. Have a great weekend!:thumbup:

Go get him killa'!
 

John Daminato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At this time, a Diamond ProAM is my favorite table to play on and I have been playing on GC's and brunswicks my whole life. I live very close (ten minutes) to the only Diamond ProAM in the city and its free and maintained perfectly with 860 tournament blue. The owner of the bar is a player and for obvious reasons went that route. He paid 5k installed/delivered and it came from Derby last year. I personally know the Diamond rep in this area and he said your not going to find a used ProAm delivered and set up for under $4,000.

For my own pad I went with the KS because a buddy said "for the money" you cant go wrong and I trust his opinion. It was $1000.00 less expensive then a used GC3 and 4. That gives me a good margin and I can now look into a higher end light system.

I could of got a mint GC4, with centennials, 860, delivered and installed, drop pockets. $2600.00

Does anyone have any real time spent on a Kim Steel here that could tell me the pro's and cons?
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At this time, a Diamond ProAM is my favorite table to play on and I have been playing on GC's and brunswicks my whole life. I live very close (ten minutes) to the only Diamond ProAM in the city and its free and maintained perfectly with 860 tournament blue. The owner of the bar is a player and for obvious reasons went that route. He paid 5k installed/delivered and it came from Derby last year. I personally know the Diamond rep in this area and he said your not going to find a used ProAm delivered and set up for under $4,000.

For my own pad I went with the KS because a buddy said "for the money" you cant go wrong and I trust his opinion. It was $1000.00 less expensive then a used GC3 and 4. That gives me a good margin and I can now look into a higher end light system.

I could of got a mint GC4, with centennials, 860, delivered and installed, drop pockets. $2600.00

Does anyone have any real time spent on a Kim Steel here that could tell me the pro's and cons?

I played on Kim Steele tables at my last pool room. I thought they were great, but they were really old. The pockets were mostly taped up, but otherwise they were nice. I would love to play on a brand new one some time.
 
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