Making and Selling Counterfeit Cues

Tikkitavi

Tikkitavi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Counterfeiting pool cues is a crime. Knowingly selling a counterfeit cue is a crime. Just this week I saw two cues that are not what the trademark says they are. These cues had just sold for many thousands of dollars.
The allowing of these crimes to continue is not good for anyone except the criminals. It is time for the cue collecting community to make a stand. I am personally on a quest to find and have charges brought forth against anyone associated with these crimes. I will also help the cue makers bring civil lawsuits against the counterfeiters.(Lanham Act) I hope others will join me on this quest.



U.S. Code

TITLE 18 >Part 1>Chapter 113> § 2320

(a) Whoever intentionally traffics or attempts to traffic in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services, or intentionally traffics or attempts to traffic in labels, patches, stickers, wrappers, badges, emblems, medallions, charms, boxes, containers, cans, cases, hangtags, documentation, or packaging of any type or nature, knowing that a counterfeit mark has been applied thereto, the use of which is likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive, shall, if an individual, be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, be fined not more than $5,000,000. In the case of an offense by a person under this section that occurs after that person is convicted of another offense under this section, the person convicted, if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $15,000,000.

cited in USAM 9-68.100

"Trademarks are the commercial brands, names, logos or emblems that identify particular products. Trademark infringement is when something is sold under a trademark that belongs to someone else. It could also occur when something is sold under a trademark that is very similar to an established trademark. Sales of counterfeit products is another form of trademark infringement. Owners may sue infringers for substantial civil damage"


Mr. Wilson,

Please allow this thread to be viewed in the Wanted/For Sale. This is where it will do the most good.

Thank you,
Rik Graham
 
Last edited:
If you seen a couple of counterfeit cues selling on here then why didn't you post a thread on there sale thread so they wouldn't be able to sell the cue? If that statement is true now an innocent buyer may go to resell & get accused of selling a counterfeit cue!!! What was the name brand of cues that you seen sold?
 
without any details on what cues you are talking about this is a fairly worthless thread. Coming from you one would think high end cue, but I'd hope no one is passing fake high end cues here.
 
Last edited:
Sleeper said:
If you seen a couple of counterfeit cues selling on here then why didn't you post a thread on there sale thread so they wouldn't be able to sell the cue? If that statement is true now an innocent buyer may go to resell & get accused of selling a counterfeit cue!!! What was the name brand of cues that you seen sold?
Click to expand...

Sir,

I did not say the cues were on the forum. I did inform the purchaser that the cues he purchased were highly suspect and more than likely counterfeits. He is in the process of resolving the situation. The maker of the cues that were counterfeited will not be revealed at this time.
 
Target someone who is selling these goods, it will be more effective then just vaguely saying your going against all counterfeiters.

hopefully you can save someone from getting taken
 
Geet em Mr Riki!

I will help any way I can. There are many collectors that don't bat an eye at the 5K-12K collectable cue.
We all should take this tread to heart and contribute any way possable to demise of cue counterfitters.
The problem here is many collectable cues were not trade marked. And the collectors of those cues are the main targets of scammers.
But maybe they will move on to medicare Fraud!
Thanks Riki,
Nick :)
 
cubswin said:
without any details on what cues you are talking about this is a fairly worthless thread. Coming from you one would think high end cue, but I'd hope no one is passing fake high end cues here.
Click to expand...


Sir,

The cues that were counterfeited would be considered on the high-end scale.
But that is not what the thread is about. Counterfeiting a cue is a felony. Knowingly and purposely misrepresenting a cue is a crime. If someone buys a cue and finds out it’s a fake, and then in turn sells it as the real deal to be rid of it, they are just as guilty as the counterfeiter.
 
nick serdula said:
I will help any way I can. There are many collectors that don't bat an eye at the 5K-12K collectable cue.
We all should take this tread to heart and contribute any way possable to demise of cue counterfitters.
The problem here is many collectable cues were not trade marked. And the collectors of those cues are the main targets of scammers.
But maybe they will move on to medicare Fraud!
Thanks Riki,
Nick :)
Click to expand...

Nick,

We can not do much with the fake Szams and Bushkas. Most current cue makers use some sort of trademark. If some one decides to make a first run Ginacue out of a Titlist, I want them to know the possible penalty that they could be facing. Not to mention they could loose their house and shop with all it contents. (Lanham Act) How many sneaky petes did Tim Scruggs make?

Rik
 
Tikkitavi said:
Nick,

We can not do much with the fake Szams and Bushkas. Most current cue makers use some sort of trademark. If some one decides to make a first run Ginacue out of a Titlist, I want them to know the possible penalty that they could be facing. Not to mention they could loose their house and shop with all it contents. (Lanham Act) How many sneaky petes did Tim Scruggs make?

Rik
Click to expand...

According to Tim Scruggs he never made a Sneaky Pete they were all made by people working in his shop. But, it would be cool to know how many were made, but I suspect that those kind of records were not kept, but I could be wrong!!

Good luck with you mission.
 
Tikkitavi said:
Sir,

The cues that were counterfeited would be considered on the high-end scale.
But that is not what the thread is about. Counterfeiting a cue is a felony. Knowingly and purposely misrepresenting a cue is a crime. If someone buys a cue and finds out it’s a fake, and then in turn sells it as the real deal to be rid of it, they are just as guilty as the counterfeiter.
Click to expand...

In that case then some examples would be helpful. Otherwise it just falls to the outside chance that someone sees the cue and knows better and then alerts the potential buyers.
 
I was in Atlanta for the SCCS and a guy was selling one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EBONY-BIRDSEYE-...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a536f2148

He was trying to pass it off as a Dave Kikel cue. Anyone who knows Kikel cues knows that they have the KQ emblem on the butt cap and not a KC like on the Ebay cues. I don't know if he knew this and was trying to sell a cheap cue or if he was duped himself. I wish I could go back in time with a lap top and show him but oh well. He never showed up the next day of the show, so who knows.
 
How much wood?

Tikkitavi said:
Nick,

We can not do much with the fake Szams and Bushkas. Most current cue makers use some sort of trademark. If some one decides to make a first run Ginacue out of a Titlist, I want them to know the possible penalty that they could be facing. Not to mention they could loose their house and shop with all it contents. (Lanham Act) How many sneaky petes did Tim Scruggs make?

Rik
Click to expand...

I think Rainbow told me he had 180 or 190 of them still in plastic years ago. From the mid 70's to the mid 2000,s I would guess way more than that. The queston better asked is how many were made by Tim Scruggs Custim Cues.
Nick :)
 
Brain71 said:
I was in Atlanta for the SCCS and a guy was selling one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EBONY-BIRDSEYE-...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a536f2148

He was trying to pass it off as a Dave Kikel cue. Anyone who knows Kikel cues knows that they have the KQ emblem on the butt cap and not a KC like on the Ebay cues. I don't know if he knew this and was trying to sell a cheap cue or if he was duped himself. I wish I could go back in time with a lap top and show him but oh well. He never showed up the next day of the show, so who knows.
Click to expand...

I don't see anywhere on the listing where it claims to be a Kikel.
 
Caveat emptor

It's bad but get it verified before purchase if there is a feasable way:(
 
Good luck.


As one who spent $50,000 pursuing his trademark rights only to see the loser (by settlement) resurface as "Stroke" Cases (as opposed to Instroke) and one who has seen his work copied by every major case manufacturer and knowingly imported by every major distributor I can say that you are in for an uphill battle.

The burden of proof is high here to prove culpability. Unless you catch a cuemaker in the act of making a cue and putting someone else's logo on it or admitting to it then it's highly unlikely that you will prove any criminal act on their part. And unless you have some sort of confession you are going to have a very hard time proving what a person "knew" and how complicit they are.

Another thing is that if a trademark is dead, meaning not being used in commerce, then anyone has the right to pick it up and use it in commerce. So legally, someone could say make Harvey Martin cues since Harvey Martin is long gone and no one has continued to protect the trademark. I am not certain what the current case law is on this but the gist of it is use it or lose it.

Anyway, kudos to you for taking a stand on this. I hope that those who are actively engaged in this sort of fraud and deception will stop it now that someone is on them. It's also a felony to commit fraud by using the telephone, internet, or the mail so if they did any of these things then they couldbe looking at jail time if you can get a prosecuter to take the case.
 
measureman said:
I just hope my Lucasi is not a fake that was made in China.
Click to expand...

It's not out of the realm of possibility. You can't imagine the amount of counterfeit stuff here.

I have seen counterfeit Predator cues and cases, counterfeit Tim Scruggs, counterfeit Moori tips and Master chalk, counterfeit Instroke cases, counterfeit Joss cues and even "Joss" pool table cloth. I have seen fake Falcon cues, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that there are fake Lucasi cues running around.

They think nothing of infringing on trademarks here. When you you go to the leather market you can find dozens of shops who specialize in selling metal logos of the top luxury brands.

Last time Karen and I were there I made a joke that I should buy a variety of them and make a case I would call the "Luxury" case with all those brands on it. - DISCLAIMER - I could do this legally under the fair use doctrine of parody but I could not make a line of them and sell them.

But that's all par for the course here. The law is also somewhat murky in China as to what can be done IN CHINA to protect one's trademarks and intellectual property.

What Tikitavi is proposing is far more insidious. I assume he is referring to American cue makers who are deliberately counterfeiting other brands of American cues presumably in collusion with some sellers. And these cues are going for thousands. I can understand that people in a faraway country with lax laws and even laxer enforcement would steal the trademarks of consumer goods like handbags. I don't understand why someone in the USA will risk imprisonment by perpetrating this type of fraud. Maybe they think that cue making is under the radar of law enforcement. Boy can I see dozens of laws that are broken when they do this, counterfeiting, trademark infringement, fraud, probably tax evasion, racketeering, conspiracy etc.....

I guess that they forget that when it's actually a CRIMINAL offense as opposed to a civil matter that the prosecutors CAN decide to spend what they want on the prosecution and go after a conviction.

Personally I think ALL infringement should be criminalized. Just like stealing a TV from Wal-Mart when someone steals my designs then they should go to jail. If the large distributors lived in FEAR that their business could be raided at any time, their stock confiscated and destroyed and the principals arrested then they would stop copying everyone RIGHT NOW.

I am listening to a podcast series on Itunes called the Intellectual Property Colloquium. It has many interesting discussions on these topics.

Thomas Jefferson believed that ideas should be free but that the person who takes an idea and makes something of it should have some protection for a period of time.

I agree.
 
JB Cases said:
It's not out of the realm of possibility. You can't imagine the amount of counterfeit stuff here.

I have seen counterfeit Predator cues and cases, counterfeit Tim Scruggs, counterfeit Moori tips and Master chalk, counterfeit Instroke cases, counterfeit Joss cues and even "Joss" pool table cloth. I have seen fake Falcon cues, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that there are fake Lucasi cues running around.

They think nothing of infringing on trademarks here. When you you go to the leather market you can find dozens of shops who specialize in selling metal logos of the top luxury brands.

Last time Karen and I were there I made a joke that I should buy a variety of them and make a case I would call the "Luxury" case with all those brands on it. - DISCLAIMER - I could do this legally under the fair use doctrine of parody but I could not make a line of them and sell them.

But that's all par for the course here. The law is also somewhat murky in China as to what can be done IN CHINA to protect one's trademarks and intellectual property.

What Tikitavi is proposing is far more insidious. I assume he is referring to American cue makers who are deliberately counterfeiting other brands of American cues presumably in collusion with some sellers. And these cues are going for thousands. I can understand that people in a faraway country with lax laws and even laxer enforcement would steal the trademarks of consumer goods like handbags. I don't understand why someone in the USA will risk imprisonment by perpetrating this type of fraud. Maybe they think that cue making is under the radar of law enforcement. Boy can I see dozens of laws that are broken when they do this, counterfeiting, trademark infringement, fraud, probably tax evasion, racketeering, conspiracy etc.....

I guess that they forget that when it's actually a CRIMINAL offense as opposed to a civil matter that the prosecutors CAN decide to spend what they want on the prosecution and go after a conviction.

Personally I think ALL infringement should be criminalized. Just like stealing a TV from Wal-Mart when someone steals my designs then they should go to jail. If the large distributors lived in FEAR that their business could be raided at any time, their stock confiscated and destroyed and the principals arrested then they would stop copying everyone RIGHT NOW.

I am listening to a podcast series on Itunes called the Intellectual Property Colloquium. It has many interesting discussions on these topics.

Thomas Jefferson believed that ideas should be free but that the person who takes an idea and makes something of it should have some protection for a period of time.

I agree.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why someone in the USA will risk imprisonment by perpetrating this type of fraud. Maybe they think that cue making is under the radar of law enforcement. Boy can I see dozens of laws that are broken when they do this, counterfeiting, trademark infringement, fraud, probably tax evasion, racketeering, conspiracy etc.....

John they have been doing it since the 1970's when George Balabushka died, it is all about one thing Money and nothing else. But I also think our present economy is not helping the situation any, when things get bad people will do what is ever necessary to feed their families. I think things will only get worst in the near future as sad as that is.

JIMO
 
JB Cases said:
It's not out of the realm of possibility. You can't imagine the amount of counterfeit stuff here.

I have seen counterfeit Predator cues and cases, counterfeit Tim Scruggs, counterfeit Moori tips and Master chalk, counterfeit Instroke cases, counterfeit Joss cues and even "Joss" pool table cloth. I have seen fake Falcon cues, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that there are fake Lucasi cues running around.

They think nothing of infringing on trademarks here. When you you go to the leather market you can find dozens of shops who specialize in selling metal logos of the top luxury brands.

Last time Karen and I were there I made a joke that I should buy a variety of them and make a case I would call the "Luxury" case with all those brands on it. - DISCLAIMER - I could do this legally under the fair use doctrine of parody but I could not make a line of them and sell them.

But that's all par for the course here. The law is also somewhat murky in China as to what can be done IN CHINA to protect one's trademarks and intellectual property.

What Tikitavi is proposing is far more insidious. I assume he is referring to American cue makers who are deliberately counterfeiting other brands of American cues presumably in collusion with some sellers. And these cues are going for thousands. I can understand that people in a faraway country with lax laws and even laxer enforcement would steal the trademarks of consumer goods like handbags. I don't understand why someone in the USA will risk imprisonment by perpetrating this type of fraud. Maybe they think that cue making is under the radar of law enforcement. Boy can I see dozens of laws that are broken when they do this, counterfeiting, trademark infringement, fraud, probably tax evasion, racketeering, conspiracy etc.....

I guess that they forget that when it's actually a CRIMINAL offense as opposed to a civil matter that the prosecutors CAN decide to spend what they want on the prosecution and go after a conviction.

Personally I think ALL infringement should be criminalized. Just like stealing a TV from Wal-Mart when someone steals my designs then they should go to jail. If the large distributors lived in FEAR that their business could be raided at any time, their stock confiscated and destroyed and the principals arrested then they would stop copying everyone RIGHT NOW.

I am listening to a podcast series on Itunes called the Intellectual Property Colloquium. It has many interesting discussions on these topics.

Thomas Jefferson believed that ideas should be free but that the person who takes an idea and makes something of it should have some protection for a period of time.

I agree.
Click to expand...

How do those fake predators play? how much for one?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top