man witnessed sad action last night - 2 idiots in a pool room

KissedOut said:
So is forgery, which is on the same moral plane. Just because something takes a high level of skill doesn't make it virtuous.
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One other thing, I do not believe anyone is saying that Hustling or even gambling with a 100% dead even completely on the square is virtuous . Not saying that you necessarily are but by using the word " virtuous " could indicate a religious undertone. If that is the case, then ANY AND ALL gambling is wrong regardless of the circumstances.
 
BmoreMoney said:
I personally do not believe it to be on the same moral plane...
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It is exactly the same. You (and others who think this) are just failing to use any logic and think it through. But if you think it is different, then explain what the differences are and why you think those differences actually make a difference. There is no difference. You just have never bothered to critically question it because that was the pool culture you became familiar with. It has always just been "the way it is". Your viewpoint that "deceiving someone to take advantage of them can't possibly be wrong in pool if the majority of people in pool don't see it that way" is lazy thinking (total lack of thinking actually) that is devoid of any and all logic.

Very often he hardest part of using logic is having to be completely honest with ourselves and this is likely one of those cases for you and a lot of other people. You appreciate the skill of hustling. You derive benefit from it. You were raised with it largely being accepted by the pool culture. You don't want to see it for what it really is. It isn't self serving to see the truth, and so that makes it hard to want to see the truth. That doesn't change what the truth is though just because you don't want to use logic to take a critical and honest look at it.

BmoreMoney said:
The huge difference is that ( and this goes for EVERY single instance of an action match ) yall have to remember that the other person IS TRYING to get your money too!!!!
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Maybe I have missed something but I don't recall anyone anywhere saying that they see any problem with anyone trying to win a match, even if there is money on the line. It is HOW they go about trying to win the match or the money that is the issue. If they are trying to win by playing hard, no problem. But if they are trying to take advantage of someone, or trying to deceive someone for that financial gain, it is no different than any other case of deceiving someone to take advantage of them. You just never stopped to really think about it with any honesty and logic.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
It is exactly the same. You (and others who think this) are just failing to use any logic and think it through. But if you think it is different, then explain what the differences are and why you think those differences actually make a difference. There is no difference. You just have never bothered to critically question it because that was the pool culture you became familiar with. It has always just been "the way it is". Your viewpoint that "deceiving someone to take advantage of them can't possibly be wrong in pool if the majority of people in pool don't see it that way" is lazy thinking (total lack of thinking actually) that is devoid of any and all logic.

Very often he hardest part of using logic is having to be completely honest with ourselves and this is likely one of those cases for you and a lot of other people. You appreciate the skill of hustling. You derive benefit from it. You were raised with it largely being accepted by the pool culture. You don't want to see it for what it really is. It isn't self serving to see the truth, and so that makes it hard to want to see the truth. That doesn't change what the truth is though just because you don't want to use logic to take a critical and honest look at it.



Maybe I have missed something but I don't recall anyone anywhere saying that they see any problem with anyone trying to win a match, even if there is money on the line. It is HOW they go about trying to win the match or the money that is the issue. If they are trying to win by playing hard, no problem. But if they are trying to take advantage of someone, or trying to deceive someone for that financial gain, it is no different than any other case of deceiving someone to take advantage of them. You just never stopped to really think about it with any honesty and logic.
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OK let me preface this post by saying ( as if yall didn't already know lol ) yes I do think it's an art form, I do not have a problem with it, and no I do not consider it stealing. Ok;so, my main problem is with people that say it is no different than a forged check, an armed robbery, cheating a blind man, etc. Many are trying to lump all of these and many other things into the same category. Imo, all of these things ARE WAY WAY worse as far as I can see. They refer to it as stealing. Basically none of these examples have any choice in the matter. I'm not morally deficient, I do know the difference between right and wrong ( albeit that is different for every person ). Strictly speaking on being morally wrong ( on a religious level ) I will consent that " hustling " is morally wrong. ( because of a type and a level of deceit ). This becomes a slippery slope very quickly.

Now, not that any of yall would have any real way of knowing this but I am completely capable of being totally objective in just about all situations. This is the basis for logic. Now here's something for yall to ponder - and this is in regards to that slippery slope I spoke of. So you said you're OK with a match up on the " up and up right? " So guy a and guy b play. Guy a plays better than b and they both know it. Guy a offers the call 7. Player b thinks that's probably a fair game, however - just as almost EVERY single person that gets in action, wants to get the best game possible so he says no I want the free 6. Is it " wrong " for b to try and get the best game he can????? You tell me? Is b morally corrupt or is he stealing by trying to get that little extra weight?

Some people are gamblers, some are not and that's fine. But if a gambler says they are not gonna try to get the best game they can for their money I'm calling total BS!
So since I have given this example it brings what I posted earlier full circle in regards to both guys are trying to get each others money - hence why they are gambling in the first place. It's just that one is gonna be better at it than the other usually.

You made some comments about maybe me being complacent because that is what it always has been. There's truth to that. Here's an example I'll give you ( and don't give extreme could terms examples because you know that's not what we are talking about ) - here in our country it is very taboo to eat dogs and horses and therefore considered bad. Well there are plenty of places across the world where not only is it OK but it is common place and no big deal because that is the culture. Well this is the pool culture. Once again please don't rebut with an extreme example because you know that would not be fair because it would be out of context.

Bottom line; IMO, if you're gonna get in the box and put your cheez on the light you should know what the hell you're doing. Period.
 
BmoreMoney said:
I do think it's an art form, I do not have a problem with it, and no I do not consider it stealing. Ok;so, my main problem is with people that say it is no different than a forged check, an armed robbery, cheating a blind man, etc. Many are trying to lump all of these and many other things into the same category. Imo, all of these things ARE WAY WAY worse as far as I can see.
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You are using really bad logic and even changing the subject, all without even realizing it. It is like if the topic is whether murdering a human being for no good reason is wrong or not, and you come in and say that if you shoot somebody in the head so they die instantly it is not murder since there are cases where people had all their fingers and toes cut off one by one and then they were skinned alive until they finally died from blood loss or a heart attack from all the pain. Your conclusion is that since there are worse types of murder, shooting someone in the head somehow becomes not murder any more. There is no basis of logic in there. None. Whether or not shooting somebody in the head is murder is not dependent on whether or not there are worse ways to kill someone. They are all still murder.

And so it is here. Misleading or deceiving someone to take advantage of them is wrong, even though there may be "worse" examples that happen out there. But just because somebody else tortured a guy to death doesn't mean that when you shoot a guy in the head that isn't still murder too. We have to be careful to only use good logic.

BmoreMoney said:
Strictly speaking on being morally wrong ( on a religious level ) I will consent that " hustling " is morally wrong. ( because of a type and a level of deceit ).
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Now this is using some logic, even when you don't like the answer. It is hard for everyone to do, not just for you. It isn't just on a "religious" level though, it is on a societal level on what we all know and agree are and are not appropriate behaviors.
 
BmoreMoney said:
Is it " wrong " for b to try and get the best game he can????? You tell me? Is b morally corrupt or is he stealing by trying to get that little extra weight?

here in our country it is very taboo to eat dogs and horses and therefore considered bad. Well there are plenty of places across the world where not only is it OK but it is common place and no big deal because that is the culture. Well this is the pool culture.
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This is a very good observation and point. It is a two part answer. The first is that is not not the pool culture, as if every person out there that plays pool agrees with it, practices it, participates in it, or even knows about it. It is the pool culture for you. It is the pool culture for a portion of other pool players. But it is not the pool culture for everyone. It is not the pool culture for another large segment of pool players, probably even the majority. And just because it is the culture you like doesn't mean that you can expect that everybody else should have to adopt it too. The no snitch "hood culture" says that if somebody murders your mama and you saw who did it, you are supposed to keep your mouth shut and let them get away with it. But just because that is somebody else's culture doesn't mean they have a right to impose it on you if that isn't your culture.

If that isn't your culture you have a right to tell the police that it was Jim Bob down the street that shot your mama. You aren't doing anything wrong if you do. In fact you are doing the right thing. It was their culture that was wrong according to what all of society knows and agrees with, not your culture that was wrong.

So the second part of the answer is this. If both parties have the same viewpoints about the pool culture in that deceiving is ok to take advantage of people when gambling in pool, then I see no problem with it as both agree. They have given each other permission to do it so to speak. A good analogy is a poker game. Lying and deceiving is a part of the game. Everybody who sits down at the poker table knows this, and is accepting this, and gives their permission for it to happen by sitting down. It is not wrong to try to bluff another player because he already gave you permission to do it.

Pool is not at all like poker though. Not everybody considers hustling to be an integral part of the game. In fact most probably don't. So if you are matching up with another player that you know has the same beliefs, that it is ok to do whatever deceit that you can get away with to get the best game for yourself, then no, it is not wrong. He already agreed to it. He gave you permission to do it. But if that person does not come from that same line of thought that you do then yes it is wrong to try to deceive and take advantage of them. And if you don't know the person and what their beliefs are, then it is also wrong to try to deceive and take advantage of them. It only becomes right when they give you "permission" by being of the same mind and you know for a fact that they are of the same mind.

Now if a player knows they have the worst of it and chooses to play anyway, I see no problem with it. If they aren't being deceived or are not somehow ignorant to the facts then it is not wrong to play them if they have full knowledge that they are taking the worst of it and choose to do it anyway. Now if they are doing it because they their wife just divorced them and they are despondent and based on irrational feelings at the moment they don't care (but will likely regret it later) then yes it is probably taking advantage of them and is wrong. Same thing if they are drunk and you think they may regret it later.

It can sometimes be a gray area and a judgement call but bottom line if they are being deceived or taken advantage of without having given you permission to do so (by being clear that they have the same beliefs system regarding the pool culture) then it is probably wrong.
 
Holy shit, do none of you understand what gambling is when it comes to pool? First off, no one....and I mean NO ONE is being forced to gamble when they don't want to, so that leaves WILLING participant's who for what ever reason....want to battle it out and see who comes up on top with the cash, played mostly by GROWN UP ADULTS, and therefore are held accountable for their choices to gamble. Hustling is just part of the game of matching up to GET ACTION. When was the last time ANY of you saw someone playing pool for money with a gun being held to their head to play????? Now, if the players are staging the match up just to deceive the spectators who are betting on the side.....THAT'S what I call being devious and stealing, which is why SIDE BETTING IS ILLEGAL, but NOT if the betting is between the involved players!!!
 
realkingcobra said:
Holy shit, do none of you understand what gambling is when it comes to pool? First off, no one....and I mean NO ONE is being forced to gamble when they don't want to, so that leaves WILLING participant's who for what ever reason....want to battle it out and see who comes up on top with the cash, played mostly by GROWN UP ADULTS, and therefore are held accountable for their choices to gamble. Hustling is just part of the game of matching up to GET ACTION. When was the last time ANY of you saw someone playing pool for money with a gun being held to their head to play????? Now, if the players are staging the match up just to deceive the spectators who are betting on the side.....THAT'S what I call being devious and stealing, which is why SIDE BETTING IS ILLEGAL, but NOT if the betting is between the involved players!!!
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I WAS gonna reply to that last one BUT, I just made me a nice big meal ANDROID I consider it pointless. Those on here that understand understand and does not require a response and those that do not get it never will so whatever. BTW, not sure why but it still won't let me give you greenies???? Not on this one either lol????
 
Poolplaya9 said:
This is a very good observation and point. It is a two part answer. The first is that is not not the pool culture, as if every person out there that plays pool agrees with it, practices it, participates in it, or even knows about it. It is the pool culture for you. It is the pool culture for a portion of other pool players. But it is not the pool culture for everyone. It is not the pool culture for another large segment of pool players, probably even the majority. And just because it is the culture you like doesn't mean that you can expect that everybody else should have to adopt it too. The no snitch "hood culture" says that if somebody murders your mama and you saw who did it, you are supposed to keep your mouth shut and let them get away with it. But just because that is somebody else's culture doesn't mean they have a right to impose it on you if that isn't your culture.

If that isn't your culture you have a right to tell the police that it was Jim Bob down the street that shot your mama. You aren't doing anything wrong if you do. In fact you are doing the right thing. It was their culture that was wrong according to what all of society knows and agrees with, not your culture that was wrong.

So the second part of the answer is this. If both parties have the same viewpoints about the pool culture in that deceiving is ok to take advantage of people when gambling in pool, then I see no problem with it as both agree. They have given each other permission to do it so to speak. A good analogy is a poker game. Lying and deceiving is a part of the game. Everybody who sits down at the poker table knows this, and is accepting this, and gives their permission for it to happen by sitting down. It is not wrong to try to bluff another player because he already gave you permission to do it.

Pool is not at all like poker though. Not everybody considers hustling to be an integral part of the game. In fact most probably don't. So if you are matching up with another player that you know has the same beliefs, that it is ok to do whatever deceit that you can get away with to get the best game for yourself, then no, it is not wrong. He already agreed to it. He gave you permission to do it. But if that person does not come from that same line of thought that you do then yes it is wrong to try to deceive and take advantage of them. And if you don't know the person and what their beliefs are, then it is also wrong to try to deceive and take advantage of them. It only becomes right when they give you "permission" by being of the same mind and you know for a fact that they are of the same mind.

Now if a player knows they have the worst of it and chooses to play anyway, I see no problem with it. If they aren't being deceived or are not somehow ignorant to the facts then it is not wrong to play them if they have full knowledge that they are taking the worst of it and choose to do it anyway. Now if they are doing it because they their wife just divorced them and they are despondent and based on irrational feelings at the moment they don't care (but will likely regret it later) then yes it is probably taking advantage of them and is wrong. Same thing if they are drunk and you think they may regret it later.

It can sometimes be a gray area and a judgement call but bottom line if they are being deceived or taken advantage of without having given you permission to do so (by being clear that they have the same beliefs system regarding the pool culture) then it is probably wrong.
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I am gonna reply to one portion. That is only because you continue to bring this up with me. The " hood culture " as you so eloquently put it is not so that person doesn't face jistice, it's so that justice can be dealt with amongst their own - which pretty much always happens. It's because everyone knows how F'do the system is and if left to its on device that person will not receive what most would consider " true justice ". It happens everyday, someone does something horrific and they get 5 or 10 years but yet they took someone's life and or ruined countless other lives. This is the concept that seems to elude you sir.
 
Mustardeer said:
Oh I see. Well you had to be there. It was really hard to watch. The guy losing was a grown man in his forties..
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Right a grown man in his 40s, if he chooses to spend money gambling and losing then let him. No need to step in and help.
 
BmoreMoney said:
I personally do not believe it to be on the same moral plane but let's put that aside for now. The huge difference is that ( and this goes for EVERY single instance of an action match ) yall have to remember that the other person IS TRYING to get your money too!!!! It just turns one or the other is better at it. Once again, that person that some of yall are referring to as the person being " hustled " is trying JUST AS HARD to get the " hustlers " money.
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Great, so we justify it by saying that is it a bunch of crooks stealing money from each other?

Hustling is not the same as gambling.
 
BmoreMoney said:
One other thing, I do not believe anyone is saying that Hustling or even gambling with a 100% dead even completely on the square is virtuous . Not saying that you necessarily are but by using the word " virtuous " could indicate a religious undertone. If that is the case, then ANY AND ALL gambling is wrong regardless of the circumstances.
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Nah, I have no problem with honest straight up gambling. It is this dishonest crap and the glorification of it that has irretrievably trashed pool.
 
BmoreMoney said:
OK let me preface this post by saying ( as if yall didn't already know lol ) yes I do think it's an art form, I do not have a problem with it, and no I do not consider it stealing. Ok;so, my main problem is with people that say it is no different than a forged check, an armed robbery, cheating a blind man, etc. Many are trying to lump all of these and many other things into the same category. Imo, all of these things ARE WAY WAY worse as far as I can see. They refer to it as stealing. Basically none of these examples have any choice in the matter. I'm not morally deficient, I do know the difference between right and wrong ( albeit that is different for every person ). Strictly speaking on being morally wrong ( on a religious level ) I will consent that " hustling " is morally wrong. ( because of a type and a level of deceit ). This becomes a slippery slope very quickly.

Now, not that any of yall would have any real way of knowing this but I am completely capable of being totally objective in just about all situations. This is the basis for logic. Now here's something for yall to ponder - and this is in regards to that slippery slope I spoke of. So you said you're OK with a match up on the " up and up right? " So guy a and guy b play. Guy a plays better than b and they both know it. Guy a offers the call 7. Player b thinks that's probably a fair game, however - just as almost EVERY single person that gets in action, wants to get the best game possible so he says no I want the free 6. Is it " wrong " for b to try and get the best game he can????? You tell me? Is b morally corrupt or is he stealing by trying to get that little extra weight?

Some people are gamblers, some are not and that's fine. But if a gambler says they are not gonna try to get the best game they can for their money I'm calling total BS!
So since I have given this example it brings what I posted earlier full circle in regards to both guys are trying to get each others money - hence why they are gambling in the first place. It's just that one is gonna be better at it than the other usually.

You made some comments about maybe me being complacent because that is what it always has been. There's truth to that. Here's an example I'll give you ( and don't give extreme could terms examples because you know that's not what we are talking about ) - here in our country it is very taboo to eat dogs and horses and therefore considered bad. Well there are plenty of places across the world where not only is it OK but it is common place and no big deal because that is the culture. Well this is the pool culture. Once again please don't rebut with an extreme example because you know that would not be fair because it would be out of context.

Bottom line; IMO, if you're gonna get in the box and put your cheez on the light you should know what the hell you're doing. Period.
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You are not even remotely objective. Getting the best game in negotiating, and getting a better than best game by deception are not the same. The OP STOLE money by DECEIVING player A. Why is it so hard for you to accept that? There was nothing honest about that transaction.

But you are right that THIS is the pool culture. Which is why pool sucks and will never be mainstream.
 
realkingcobra said:
Holy shit, do none of you understand what gambling is when it comes to pool? First off, no one....and I mean NO ONE is being forced to gamble when they don't want to, so that leaves WILLING participant's who for what ever reason....want to battle it out and see who comes up on top with the cash, played mostly by GROWN UP ADULTS, and therefore are held accountable for their choices to gamble. Hustling is just part of the game of matching up to GET ACTION. When was the last time ANY of you saw someone playing pool for money with a gun being held to their head to play????? Now, if the players are staging the match up just to deceive the spectators who are betting on the side.....THAT'S what I call being devious and stealing, which is why SIDE BETTING IS ILLEGAL, but NOT if the betting is between the involved players!!!
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That is fine right up to the point that one person uses deception in misrepresenting their playing level. That is when it becomes stealing. Forget the OPs behavior in trying to squash the action. Do you think it is OK for the OP to drastically dump to one guy to mislead another guy about his playing ability to get a match he cannot lose?

Is gambling the only economic transaction where fraud should be permitted?
 
Here is the REAL pool culture. Everyone's panties are in a bunch because action got stepped on, but almost no one really cares about the OPs blatant dishonest hustle. That is the value system of the pool culture. And it sucks, as pool sucks, and explains why it will never be mainstream.
 
ChicagoJay said:
Right a grown man in his 40s, if he chooses to spend money gambling and losing then let him. No need to step in and help.
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Unless you can do so by hustling $100 for yourself. I wonder if OP cared enough about the player he was trying to save that he gave him the stolen $100?
 
KissedOut said:
Here is the REAL pool culture. Everyone's panties are in a bunch because action got stepped on, but almost no one really cares about the OPs blatant dishonest hustle. That is the value system of the pool culture. And it sucks, as pool sucks, and explains why it will never be mainstream.
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It's lame, I agree. I can honestly say I've never hustled anyone! I have played for money, but I never lay down. I always play my hardest (unless I'm playing kids, non-player friends or something like that). At times people have misjudged my speed, but that was their mistake, not from me hiding my ability. Pool to me is a sport, and I prefer not to hang out with lowlifes more than I absolutely have to, nor do I want to rob beginners of their money. I'm playing to get better, primarily. If I choose to play you for money, it's because I respect you and your game, not because I see you as a lamb to be slaughtered.

Pool is in the gutter for many reasons, but the culture displayed in this thread has at least some of the blame. It extends all the way up to the top. Every time someone starts anything in pool it ends up with the top guy running away with everyones money or at least trying to. The entire Bonus Ball venture, and the IPT as well were hustles on a gigantic scale. They were not successful hustles, but they were hustles none the less. The entirety of modern pool history is a long line of failed hustles, and a few successful ones, that in fact did even more damage! COC scandal, anyone?
 
KissedOut said:
But you are right that THIS is the pool culture. Which is why pool sucks and will never be mainstream.
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I do not think that is a valid statement at all. This has been going on since the very first pool table ever was built. If you read some of the stories provided by Mr Bond, at one point pool stars were just as popular as any Hollywood actor, made as much money as professional baseball stars of the time, look at the booms of the Hustler and TCOM periods and many others. Hustling did not keep pool from being mainstream then and if anything helped make pool more popular. There are many things effecting pool such as economy, many other things to do - video games and casinos as an example.
 
KissedOut said:
That is fine right up to the point that one person uses deception in misrepresenting their playing level. That is when it becomes stealing. Forget the OPs behavior in trying to squash the action. Do you think it is OK for the OP to drastically dump to one guy to mislead another guy about his playing ability to get a match he cannot lose?

Is gambling the only economic transaction where fraud should be permitted?
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His story is pure bullshit, and I say that because I've played pool for money for a long.....long time. This I know to be the truth when it comes to making money gambling, if you're playing someone for money....and you can get that first bet or race to what ever....under YOUR belt, your opponent will lose as much as they're willing to lose chasing down that first amount of money lost. To many times ive won $100 from my opponent chasing the first $10 they lost. Once I had them on the hook, chasing that $10....I could afford to play games with him losing a game here and there, but always just keeping that first $10 lost suckling more and more out of him. Only when he'd said he'd had enough did I consider giving up some weight to get more money out of him, but I was also paying very close attention to IF he still had more cash on him to lose....if not, I didn't want to give up weight and play him on the wire, so we'd quit when he said he'd had enough...and that was that. Now, if I saw him in the pool room later on, I'd wait until he'd come up to me and ask to play again, if he didn't approach me, then I'd bump into him sooner or later and ask him if he wantediluvian to play again....same as we played the last time. If he turned me down, then....and only then did I offer him a chance to get his money back....but I always let him set the terms of playing again, I never offered a spot first. If his terms offered was less than what I was willing to give him, then the play began....if his terms was more weight than I was willing to give up, then I would counter him with a different match up. If he didn't like my offer....then we wouldn't play at that time. BUT....sooner or later, he'd be in the pool room another time, and offer to play me with the counter terms he'd first offered, and I'd beat him until he was broke again.

I never played anyone my speed or better very often in my own pool rooms because then I'd have to play at my true speed, which would cost me more money in the long run than I could have made playing someone of my own speed.

I'll never forget the time I pulled my second tour in Germany. I was stationed in Garlstadt, GR, hadn't been there but about a month, already beating every player who come in the post recreation center when I finally got to meet the so called best player on post....Benjy Brooks. He was pretty good, real good actually....but I get him playing 9ball, 8ball, 8ball last pocket, 6ball....and finally banks....over the next couple of weeks, in which I learned the harest lesson of all, being the best don't pay shit. I could never get action with anyone.on post again....but Benny on the other hand, was playing everyone left and right for money. The lesson I learned was that everyone was playing Benny as a way of seeing if thsir game had improved enough to play me.....because if the couldn't beat Benny....then they didn't want to play me.....so, Benny thanked me with giving me a $100 because before I showed up....he couldn't make a dime anymore in the pool room as he'd already beaten everyone in the past and all his action had died so he wasn't making shit.

But, Benny was nice enough to take me all over Germany to all the action spots as an unknown so I could still make some money....but of course....50% of what I'd win was his...LMAO


Bottom line here is, yes, hustling IS a form of art, whereas gambling is for the suckers!!!!
 
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