mark up on pool products

After the Chicago Fire the amount of lumber that was forested in Wisconsin was off completely off the charts in board feet. Plus a lot of lumber was being sent to the south for rebuilding after the war. If there were private areas ( non logging tracks ) that were left alone they would not have been areas where logging was happening anyway.
 
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I read about those lake salvaged shafts, but never tried one. Is is just that the wood is old or is there any science behind why submerging wood for a long time suposedly makes it great for cue shafts?

If you like 12MM tips, they might be your ticket .
They are very stiff and heavy ( the ones I've seen anyway ).
Too stiff at 13MM to me ( 1MM taper to the 14" spot ).
 
After the Chicago Fire the amount of lumber that was forested in Wisconsin was off completely off the charts in board feet. Plus a lot of lumber was being sent to the south for rebuilding after the war. If there were private areas ( non logging tracks ) that were left alone they would not have been areas where logging was happening anyway.

The majority of timber was used in fueling iron furnaces, and most of the eastern side of the country was cleared in support, especially areas where iron was mined. No doubt our country has depended heavily on timber. With that said, not everything was cut. Until 60-80yrs ago, folks couldn't buy meat at the grocery store. Up to the point of refrigeration, hunting & wild game made up the protein for the vast majority of the nation, outside of cities. That required forests, generally near the the homestead. For that purpose alone, most farmers left sections of land untouched. Had nothing to do with preserving timber. Had everything to do with eating.

You are right there in Chicago. Take a drive out of the city & cruise some old farm roads. You'll notice that nearly every older, larger farm will have large patches of timber scattered erratically around the property. You'll eventually find yourself on a road that edges some of those wooded tracts. Take note of the tree size and spacing. You'll know the old growth because there will be several giants spaced evenly 30-40yds apart, with varying sizes of smaller, understory trees between them. Don't take my word for it. Go look for yourself. I bet within an hour you find an old growth tract of timber.
 
I cannot believe that he would use shafts like that on any cue. Perhaps this was a picture of shafts not to use or shafts he wouldn't use or to display low grade shafts. I certainly wouldn't use any shaft that looked like that.

I was just wondering if he used shafts like that on cues because we sell shafts similar to the #2 shaft for like $2.50 each and we're glad to get rid of them. People use them for coring dowels or practice shafts. We can sell shaft #3 all day long for $4 each as the grain is so dark and defined as well as so far apart that we consider them low grade shafts. In fact, we'd sell them for $3 each in quantity if anyone wants them. Shaft #4 while it is dark for whatever reason is not the problem as I think he said it was a 'mud shaft' or something but with the twisted grain and most definitely the knot, would make it unacceptable to most cues makers we know. Would you use a shaft like that on any cue?
 
I cannot believe that he would use shafts like that on any cue. Perhaps this was a picture of shafts not to use or shafts he wouldn't use or to display low grade shafts. I certainly wouldn't use any shaft that looked like that.

I was just wondering if he used shafts like that on cues because we sell shafts similar to the #2 shaft for like $2.50 each and we're glad to get rid of them. People use them for coring dowels or practice shafts. We can sell shaft #3 all day long for $4 each as the grain is so dark and defined as well as so far apart that we consider them low grade shafts. In fact, we'd sell them for $3 each in quantity if anyone wants them. Shaft #4 while it is dark for whatever reason is not the problem as I think he said it was a 'mud shaft' or something but with the twisted grain and most definitely the knot, would make it unacceptable to most cues makers we know. Would you use a shaft like that on any cue?

Hence why I deleted my initial response. I found it offensive and completely off base that anybody would even ask a question like that. The reputation my cues carry, and has sustained for well over a decade, didn't come from settling on just any wood. Of course I'd think that should go without saying, so I got snippy.

All that considered, yes, indeed I do use ugly shafts on a cue I call Ugly Ducklings. The cues are constructed on the premise that the woods are rejects, stuff I'd not use in my normal cues. So long as the wood is strong, stable, & straight, it is a candidate. From bumper to tip, the cues are made of reject wood. I am very honest about what they're made of, and sell them cheap. Their name alone should be an indication of what they look like. They make for great playing, inexpensive cues. They hit, feel, & play exactly like any other cue I'd make, except there are no rings or decoration, just junky looking woods. For a guy who wants a banger that plays good, or he wants to try one of my cues without having to pay well in excess of 4 digits, then the Ugly Ducklings serve the purpose. It serves to provide inexpensive but well made cues, while simultaneously clearing the cull from my shop. So long as I'm honest & up front about it, people respond quite well & the cues are gone faster than I can put them together. So yes, there is a purpose for those ugly shafts, in a cue.
 
Hence why I deleted my initial response. I found it offensive and completely off base that anybody would even ask a question like that. The reputation my cues carry, and has sustained for well over a decade, didn't come from settling on just any wood. Of course I'd think that should go without saying, so I got snippy.

All that considered, yes, indeed I do use ugly shafts on a cue I call Ugly Ducklings. The cues are constructed on the premise that the woods are rejects, stuff I'd not use in my normal cues. So long as the wood is strong, stable, & straight, it is a candidate. From bumper to tip, the cues are made of reject wood. I am very honest about what they're made of, and sell them cheap. Their name alone should be an indication of what they look like. They make for great playing, inexpensive cues. They hit, feel, & play exactly like any other cue I'd make, except there are no rings or decoration, just junky looking woods. For a guy who wants a banger that plays good, or he wants to try one of my cues without having to pay well in excess of 4 digits, then the Ugly Ducklings serve the purpose. It serves to provide inexpensive but well made cues, while simultaneously clearing the cull from my shop. So long as I'm honest & up front about it, people respond quite well & the cues are gone faster than I can put them together. So yes, there is a purpose for those ugly shafts, in a cue.

Really!? And you put your name on them? I'm not trying to denigrate you as I'm just trying to learn how and why people do things; no reason to get "snippy". I mean, why use a 'cheap shaft' when for $3 more you can use a great shaft. You can buy shafts like that for $3 or $4 and you can buy a great shaft for $6 to $8. I hardly think that the $3 or $4 difference would take food from your mouth and thus provide the buyer with a more aesthetically pleasing and performing shaft.

When I was making cues, I discovered that it was not a good idea to ever sell 'defective' cues with defective wood or with blemishes to anyone as your name is attached to that cue regardless whether you sign it or not. As such, no good ever comes from that. The best thing to do with defective wood (cues) is burn it or give it to a noble cause such as pen makers, knife makers or wood workers confined to wheel chairs as we have done with it.

I advocate to everyone out there who is looking to get into cue making or already in cue making, never sell or give away any cue that is less than perfect to anyone. Ever.
 
Really!? And you put your name on them? I'm not trying to denigrate you as I'm just trying to learn how and why people do things; no reason to get "snippy". I mean, why use a 'cheap shaft' when for $3 more you can use a great shaft. You can buy shafts like that for $3 or $4 and you can buy a great shaft for $6 to $8. I hardly think that the $3 or $4 difference would take food from your mouth and thus provide the buyer with a more aesthetically pleasing and performing shaft.

Well that's just it. I don't buy shafts. I cut trees. I like every step of the process. I mean I thoroughly enjoy it. I'd rather be in the woods with a chainsaw than standing in front of the lathe. And I owe it to the trees I cut to use as much as I possibly can, to give it a purpose.

When I was making cues, I discovered that it was not a good idea to ever sell 'defective' cues with defective wood or with blemishes to anyone as your name is attached to that cue regardless whether you sign it or not. As such, no good ever comes from that. The best thing to do with defective wood (cues) is burn it or give it to a noble cause such as pen makers, knife makers or wood workers confined to wheel chairs as we have done with it.

Well, obviously what didn't work for you, does work for me. You don't get it, and that's ok. Doesn't mean none of us get it. To be fair, you aren't a cue maker. I am. You are a wood & supply dealer for cue makers. Of course you want them to pay for the high end woods.

I advocate to everyone out there who is looking to get into cue making or already in cue making, never sell or give away any cue that is less than perfect to anyone. Ever.

You advocate this from what position? What experience do you actually have as a cue maker, and what would you know about succeeding in the craft? You peddle supplies. That's your business. Cue making is not. When I make statements, the value of what's said rests on a long, solid reputation of a quality product. My name is attached to not only my cues, but also my words, as you have noted. If I am not afraid to put my name on the cues, then why would I be afraid to describe the cue or explain what goes in to creating them? Fact is that you sell shafts on grade & appearances. I choose shafts on performance & stability. All factors can be present, meaning a pretty shaft can be a good shaft, but it's not always the case. Many times a "defected" shaft by your aesthetic standards will outplay the pretty shaft & stay straight forever. I so believe that with all of my confidence, that it's the approach I have taken from day 1. And you know what? Without having to buy your pretty shafts, or anybody's for that matter, I have found incredible success as a cue maker. Taking things for what they are worth, not what somebody says it should be, has proven to be the best route. Players love my cues. So much so that demand is consistently strong, regardless of what the rest of the market is doing. They pay well for the nice ones, and guys without a lot of money can sometimes have an Ugly Duckling that plays every bit the same, for a few hundred bucks. My name goes on them all. Turns out people prefer quality product over quality words. Who'd have thunk it
 
Well that's just it. I don't buy shafts. I cut trees. I like every step of the process. I mean I thoroughly enjoy it. I'd rather be in the woods with a chainsaw than standing in front of the lathe. And I owe it to the trees I cut to use as much as I possibly can, to give it a purpose.

Well, obviously what didn't work for you, does work for me. You don't get it, and that's ok. Doesn't mean none of us get it. To be fair, you aren't a cue maker. I am. You are a wood & supply dealer for cue makers. Of course you want them to pay for the high end woods.

You advocate this from what position? What experience do you actually have as a cue maker, and what would you know about succeeding in the craft? You peddle supplies. That's your business. Cue making is not. When I make statements, the value of what's said rests on a long, solid reputation of a quality product. My name is attached to not only my cues, but also my words, as you have noted. If I am not afraid to put my name on the cues, then why would I be afraid to describe the cue or explain what goes in to creating them? Fact is that you sell shafts on grade & appearances. I choose shafts on performance & stability. All factors can be present, meaning a pretty shaft can be a good shaft, but it's not always the case. Many times a "defected" shaft by your aesthetic standards will outplay the pretty shaft & stay straight forever. I so believe that with all of my confidence, that it's the approach I have taken from day 1. And you know what? Without having to buy your pretty shafts, or anybody's for that matter, I have found incredible success as a cue maker. Taking things for what they are worth, not what somebody says it should be, has proven to be the best route. Players love my cues. So much so that demand is consistently strong, regardless of what the rest of the market is doing. They pay well for the nice ones, and guys without a lot of money can sometimes have an Ugly Duckling that plays every bit the same, for a few hundred bucks. My name goes on them all. Turns out people prefer quality product over quality words. Who'd have thunk it


I don't buy anything you are selling. I think you're full of it and quite frankly, you're building cues with the lowest cost of anyone I know. That's your recipe for a successfully built cue. If there was an award for a cue maker who can build a cue for zero cost, you'd win the prize although I don't know if that is an accomplishment to be proud of. I think that's your goal as you want to maximize your profits in each and every cue you sell. Nothing wrong with making a profit but like I said, you win the prize for the cues with the lowest production costs of any cue maker out there; zero or as close to it as is possible.

I don't think you have a "long, solid reputation of a quality product". I think you're an AZ 'expert' and not a very good one at that. Everything you do seems to always have the best, you know the best, you use the best, you cut the best; ad nauseam. If you had a quality product, you'd be selling more cues than you do and you wouldn't be making reject cues in the same time as it takes to build a quality cue for more money. Obviously you can't build and sell all the high end cues you try to promote as you being the best and using the best of everything to the naïve and neophyte readers on AZ. You obviously have more time on your hands than you'd like.

I don't know any cue maker who would use a wiggle or twisted grain shaft in a cue much less one with a knot despite it being a blem or reject cue. Shafts like that belong in one place - the trash. As far as me making cues, I've made them before you knew what a cue was. I was coring before you made your first cue.

As far as selling wood, yes we sell wood and to a great many cue makers out there who use first line woods in their cues. Such quality as ebony, cocobolo, bocote, pink ivory, blackwood and similar woods because these are tried and true woods. These are the woods the public want the most. Not some second or third rate wood you're promoting because you get the wood for free. These are not backyard scraps that you can promote and sell to the unsuspecting public who don't know any better and rely upon the 'good reputation' of the cue maker. Truth is, these second rate woods command lower pricing on the secondary market. You can make two cues; one of Ebony and one of Pernambuco and the ebony will out sell the secondary wood 100 to 1 and will always command a higher price tag.

The most outlandish statement you made was as follows: "...you sell shafts on grade & appearances. I choose shafts on performance & stability". Do you actually believe the stuff you try to sell on here? I can't believe anyone would buy this crap you're shoveling. You're trying to tell me that a shaft with a wiggle grain and a knot is a quality performance shaft over a quality straight grained shaft with or without high growth concentration! There is not one person reading this that will agree with you that a wiggle and knotted up shaft will have better "performance" and be more "stable" than a quality straight grained maple shaft chosen for its straight grain and growth concentration. I cannot believe that you're trying to peddle this misinformation, ridiculous and totally absurd statement. Do you really think that people buy your "performance & stability" routine? You're so full of yourself. You're trying to convince people that whatever you do is best regardless of years of traditional knowledge that wiggle grained and knotted up shafts are for the trash.

All the high end cue makers of which you are not a part of all use first line woods and quality shaft wood. High end cue makers buy their wood because their time is worth more than the time it takes to cut lumber or rummaging through some dead wood. They're too busy being successful to post and too busy to worry about it costing them $48 more to build a cue because they are successful and can sell every cue they craft. Additionally, they don't have to sell seconds because they can sell all the first quality they can make. I don't think selling blemished cues does any real cue maker any justice nor would a quality craftsman want their name associated with a wiggle grain or knotted up shaft.

The point I was trying to make about putting your name on every cue is that someone who doesn't know your cues will see the crap cue you put your name on and think that's your standard cue. When that cue gets traded around, yes your name is surely on it. I still don't recommend it to anyone but hey, that's my opinion based upon successful dealings and being in business for 40 years (in this and other businesses). How old are you and how long have you been making cues? The problem is you're starting to believe the stuff you're trying to peddle and promote.

Anyone starting out who puts their name on a reject is a recipe for failure. Perhaps that's why you're building blemished cues instead of only higher end cues. I guess you have a limited market for your first line cues. Maybe you flooded the market with Pernambuco cues.

Have a nice evening as I'm done with this, you and your fantasy land.
 
bunch of bullshit

So this wood he gets for 'free' is acquired with who's time? Who pays for the equipment to process it? I know you won't understand this Joe, but I highly suggest you look up some classic string instrument repair people. You know, violins and such. Not just any old repair person, I'm talking classic instrument repair people. You will learn a few things. One thing I learned from talking to a couple is that they don't care how pretty a grain looks. It's all about stability. You make claims that I've heard from no one else except you. The reason is simple, you believe a cue to be a tool while Eric holds the idea that a cue is an instrument. An idea you have publicly denounced on your website. You'd learn how your views are so far out of line with the rest of world if you'd only allow yourself the humility to be wrong.

And the only reason ebony is even desired is the mystique of the wood. Not because of its playability or stability. In musical instruments, it's not used in areas for tonal resonance. It's used in high use areas. For a violin, the finger board, chin rest and pegs will be ebony. Areas that see the most use. I would undoubtedly use a cue made with pernambuco before ebony because I know why that wood is even popular in the first place. Again, it's a reason you don't believe exists. So next time you want to interject your uneducated opinion again, let's do the entire forum a favor and just shut up. You only exist in the cue industry to make money, not to help expand an industry. So any time someone says or does something that can infringe on your ability to make money you bring outlandish claims to the table. It's time for the bullshit to stop Joe.
 
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I believe Brian "mia" invented a term that would be totally appropriate at this time......
 
Here you go Joe, Is this wiggled and knotted enough for you? BTW this this he best hitting shaft I have ever put on a cue, IMO. It may not be your ideal shaft to sell to your customers, but I charge a mint for one, and there are people waiting for me to make more, which I refuse to do, as supply is very limited. This shaft was from a broom stick factory that closed down in the '50s. They were setting up against a wall waiting for someone like me to come along and discover them. This is no different than going out and finding your own wood to use, I beleive it makes it all the more custom and unique for the buyer.

On another note, why would you even judge Eric for his choice of shaft wood? It's not your business. Seems like you might be able to learn something from Eric's business model.... Making a sell at a fair price for the customer, even if it is not your grade A monster player. There is a market for this kinda stuff you know. As I'm sure not every shaft you sell is a grade a monster hitting shaft, that is perfectly straight with 10,000 growth rings per inch. Kinda hypocritical IMO. Or maybe just jealousy that he has succeeded in something you are incapable of doing?

My quess is your response will give us the answer to this question!

Good luck with the cues Eric, I know your attention to detail is second to none, and the hit of your cues will continue to be phenomenal, regardless or what some babbling sycophants might say. Thank you for the pictures is was good to see the difference in those woods.

Aloha
 
So this wood he gets for 'free' is acquired with who's time? Who pays for the equipment to process it? I know you won't understand this Joe, but I highly suggest you look up some classic string instrument repair people. You know, violins and such. Not just any old repair person, I'm talking classic instrument repair people. You will learn a few things. One thing I learned from talking to a couple is that they don't care how pretty a grain looks. It's all about stability. You make claims that I've heard from no one else except you. The reason is simple, you believe a cue to be a tool while Eric holds the idea that a cue is an instrument. An idea you have publicly denounced on your website. You'd learn how your views are so far out of line with the rest of world if you'd only allow yourself the humility to be wrong.

And the only reason ebony is even desired is the mystique of the wood. Not because of its playability or stability. In musical instruments, it's not used in areas for tonal resonance. It's used in high use areas. For a violin, the finger board, chin rest and pegs will be ebony. Areas that see the most use. I would undoubtedly use a cue made with pernambuco before ebony because I know why that wood is even popular in the first place. Again, it's a reason you don't believe exists. So next time you want to interject your uneducated opinion again, let's do the entire forum a favor and just shut up. You only exist in the cue industry to make money, not to help expand an industry. So any time someone says or does something that can infringe on your ability to make money you bring outlandish claims to the table. It's time for the bullshit to stop Joe.



First off, what is your name and how many cues have you built and sold?

This is cue making and not violin making so you’re way off base. The tonal qualities of wood make no difference in the final product of a cue. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that. I can change the tonal qualities of any cue by doing something which I am not about to teach you nor anyone nor am I going to get into that fairytale. If you knew this little trick, you'd realize what a foolish statement you are making. You don't know and therefore you certainly don't know.

As far as BS, it’s Eric who is full of himself. He promotes ideas that suit his best interest. Furthermore, showing photos of wiggle grained shafts and knotted up shafts goes against everything every cue maker in the world believes of a shaft. As far as uneducated opinion, it is you who are uneducated and buy into his BS. I don’t and neither do the majority of cue makers who do make cues and are successful at it.

Additionally, no one on here can ever "infringe on our ability to make money” because there isn’t enough collective money on here to make any money. The AZ marketplace is miniscule compared to the reality of the business and what is really out there. Of course I don't expect you to know that.

"Outlandish" defines Eric and his claims about wiggle grained shaft wood and knotted up shafts best.



Here you go Joe, Is this wiggled and knotted enough for you? BTW this this he best hitting shaft I have ever put on a cue, IMO. It may not be your ideal shaft to sell to your customers, but I charge a mint for one, and there are people waiting for me to make more, which I refuse to do, as supply is very limited. This shaft was from a broom stick factory that closed down in the '50s. They were setting up against a wall waiting for someone like me to come along and discover them. This is no different than going out and finding your own wood to use, I beleive it makes it all the more custom and unique for the buyer.

On another note, why would you even judge Eric for his choice of shaft wood? It's not your business. Seems like you might be able to learn something from Eric's business model.... Making a sell at a fair price for the customer, even if it is not your grade A monster player. There is a market for this kinda stuff you know. As I'm sure not every shaft you sell is a grade a monster hitting shaft, that is perfectly straight with 10,000 growth rings per inch. Kinda hypocritical IMO. Or maybe just jealousy that he has succeeded in something you are incapable of doing?
My quess is your response will give us the answer to this question!
Good luck with the cues Eric, I know your attention to detail is second to none, and the hit of your cues will continue to be phenomenal, regardless or what some babbling sycophants might say. Thank you for the pictures is was good to see the difference in those woods.
Aloha

Eric’s business model? He can write a book entitled, ‘Cue Making, A Race To The Bottom’. I don’t see any successful cue maker promoting wiggled grain and knotted up shafts on low end cues for any reason. In fact, I don’t see any successful cue maker who has sold mega thousand dollar cues entering the entry level arena after being successful. That’s ass backwards. Yeah, yeah I know, he's doing it out of the goodness of his heart and because he cares about his fellow mankind and wants to contribute to those less fortunate. Let's all go and plant a tree now and sing kumbaya.

This is not about "performance and stability" because there is nothing stable about a wiggled grained shaft. And, to say the opposite flies in the face of logic and years and years of experience from every single knowledgeable cue maker of any consequence.

As far as the quality of Eric’s cues: he builds a fine cue. It’s the crap and BS he peddles on here that I take exception to.

As far as your curly maple shaft: that’s an entirely different scenario and not comparable to the crap Eric posted and is trying to sell us on here. With you being another AZ ‘expert’, I would think that you knew the difference and would not make the comparison between the two. A curly maple shaft is entirely different from wiggle grained and knotted up shafts.

You buy into his story and BS, that’s fine; I don’t.

And lastly, both of you can now take your heads out of Eric’s butt and see the sunshine. It’s really a nice day.
 
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Are you using those twisted grain (shaft #2) and knotted up shafts (shaft #4) on cues?

Joe, I love those dark #4 shafts for my personal cues! I only use them on my personal cues but I love them. It is funny how when everyone that wants to hit a ball with my cue and I let them play with it, they love it. Then they say damn that shaft is ugly but it plays good! I weed through all of my shaft wood looking for them for my personal use and set them aside.
 
Aloha Joe,

I quess I was right about your answer.. Go figure.

BTW, I don't concideral myself an Expert, at anything, because there is always more to learn. But I guess you wouldn't understand that, because your cup seems to be over filled with argumentative negative comments and a know it all attitude. Kinda surprising really. You seem like such a nonconformist, who would test theory's and apply them even if they were outside the norm. Or is it just part of your keyboard commando facade to degrade anything that is outside your veiw normalcy?

And I agree with you.... It is a nice day. If some were not inflicted with sphincter cranialtosis. Good advice, maybe you should heed it.

Aloha
 
Joe, I love those dark #4 shafts for my personal cues! I only use them on my personal cues but I love them. It is funny how when everyone that wants to hit a ball with my cue and I let them play with it, they love it. Then they say damn that shaft is ugly but it plays good! I weed through all of my shaft wood looking for them for my personal use and set them aside.

The more I read, the more I understand but unfortunately others don’t follow along or at least take the time to read what is being talked about. This is not about dark shafts and light shafts. I’m not discussing anything about color. This is about wiggle grained shafts and shafts with knots in them despite the fact that these detractors will affect the “performance” of the player. I don’t know about you but if I’m stroking a shot, the last thing I want is the distraction of a knot in my shaft especially in my line of sight nor wiggle grain to look at that is falling off the shaft.

Aloha Joe,
…… BTW, I don't concideral myself an Expert, at anything….
Aloha

No truer words have ever been spoken.

Aloha
 


The more I read, the more I understand but unfortunately others don’t follow along or at least take the time to read what is being talked about. This is not about dark shafts and light shafts. I’m not discussing anything about color. This is about wiggle grained shafts and shafts with knots in them despite the fact that these detractors will affect the “performance” of the player. I don’t know about you but if I’m stroking a shot, the last thing I want is the distraction of a knot in my shaft especially in my line of sight nor wiggle grain to look at that is falling off the shaft.

One of my favorite shafts almost looks like tiger maple all the way down the shaft, but I agree that if you get distracted by the shaft then they are not for you! They dont bother me because I dont look at the shaft when I play, lord knows there are enough things distracting me as it is. Joe if you have some of those like in the picture straight and cut like those for $3-$4 then I will buy some for sure! I make myself a new cue every year to play with as a tribute to my dad, so I am always looking for my ugly shafts. I only have a few left in the shop. Joe you are right that 99.9% of the players want a pretty white clear shaft, but I cant play with a white shaft. I would make most people cringe if they saw what i do to my shaft while I am finishing my shaft...they are a pretty worn dark blueish color before I hit the first ball with them :eek:
 
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