....Yup, it's easy to be way off on stats if you aren't watching with an absurd level of attention and keeping track somehow.
....
and THAT, is why we LOVE you HONEY!
:kiss:
thank you, for all that you do.
MARK WILSON Phase3 and Phase 4
- Thread starter pro9dg
- Start date
and THAT, is why we LOVE you HONEY!
:kiss:
thank you, for all that you do.
Ok for the all the people who think they are a coaching genius and like to criticize on something they know nothing about.....
Do you think Tom Landry was a good coach? He made the playoffs 18 out of 29 years in coaching in the NFL. Won two Super Bowls. Find me a YouTube video of him going over and giving Roger Staubach an attaboy smack on the ass
Do you think Scotty Bowman was a good hockey coach? He only won 9 Stanley Cups and over 1200 games. Find me a YouTube video of him going over and telling Steve Yzerman, don't worry kid you will score on the next shot.
Do you think Phil Jackson was a good NBA coach? He only won 11 NBA titles, 1640 games and is the winningest coach in sports history. Find me a YouTube video where he ran down to the bench and told Michael it was ok to miss a free throw.
Seriously, your comments (and others) and dramatics over what Mark Wilson did or did not do in the hours you saw him on the Mosconi Cup feed are simply asinine. If you did 10% for pool what he did and has done in his life, your opinion and spitting of your cocktail across the room might have value.
To what extent is this due to poor kicking by the US and to what extent is it due to more safeties by Europe? I don't mean to give you more work AtLarge, but I'm just thinking out loud that it seems from those numbers like the US had poor kicking, but if they missed 12 out of 18 and Europe missed 4 out of 18, that's quite different than the US missing 12 out of 18 and Europe missing 4 out of 6. The first suggests poor kicking, the second suggests a lack of safety play.
Last edited:
This is well said. The positive/negative feedback during the competition itself is a very small part of coaching. John Wooden used to say that 90% of coaching took place before game day. It was in skills development and training that the battle was won or lost.
Truth is, the kicks missed by the US were easy ones, not difficult ones. Actually, US safety play was even worse than its kicking. Europe's kicking was satisfactory and their defense was rock solid, but even if that wasn't so, it would have been of little consolation.
Anyone who watched the matches knows how truly embarrassing the defense and kicking of Team USA truly were. Bottom line is we made their work easy far too often.
No offense intended, but I think some are missing the point & assigning blame where none should be.
I do not think anyone is criticizing Mark Wilson the man or what he is doing in the game, for the younger generation, or for the Game in whole or in part.
The movie North Dallas Forty was basically about the Dallas Cowboys.
Their (owner & coach) approach did not sit well with many many players.
I've said that Mark Wilson at least deserves another year, but someone also made the point that CJ Wiley got an 11-9 loss record in just his one & only year & at a time when Europe was still dominating, just like now. One more win & would have been Hill/Hill.
Some, & please note that I said SOME, of the Pro Pool players here in America are probably the most self centered individuals in the world. I wonder if there was NO MONEY involved just how many of them would even consider playing on a Mosconi Cup Team.
There is a clear difference between the European Teams that are WINNING & the USA 'Teams' that are LOSING.
One can point to the physical particulars like kicking stats, etc. but the question is why are the stats the way that they are. They are a product of & not the cause of.
The Sports psychology thing, IMO can be psyco-babble to some. Some individuals may respond well to it & some will not be affected by it at all, or perhaps even negatively affected. It amazes me that one, that does not do & is not under the pressure of, can even think that they can council those that are under the pressures & must perform under them.
The ones I would want to hear from are the one's that have been there, done that, & have succeeded rather significantly. One should want strong minds as team mates & not team mates that need & have to be convinced on how to think to try to be of a strong of mind. One either is strong of mind or one is weak of mind & trying to get strong. Which one does one want as a do or die team mate?
In a short race to 5, mistakes are much much more crucially important than a great shot.
Over confidence can breed risk taking & taking risks can yield mistakes.
A bit of 'fear' of making a crucial mistake can cut down on the chances of making those crucial mistakes.
The psyco-babble has it out of balance as it is not an either or matter. A good team mate is an unselfish team mate & one that understands what is best for the team.
Europe simply made & generally makes less crucial mistakes than the USA teams have. They are not arrogantly 'over confident'. They are simply confident enough that slow & steady play will prevail... & it has.
What Pink Lady is talking about is doing the same thing that the WINNERS are doing.
The Euro Players 'LOVE' their Captains.
They love them the way Vince Lombardi's players Loved Him. There were much fewer players that loved Tom Landry.
Also...there is thin line sometime between hate & love.
Like someone said, the USA will win again when Europe loses to us for some reason like the pressure. It will probably not be because of what Mark Wilson has done or will do.
Like Adrian said to Rocky, 'I just want you to do one thing for me... WIN!'.
Like Al Davis said, 'Just WIN Baby!'.
Like Vince Lombardi said, 'Winning isn't everything... but it's the ONLY thing worth striving for.'.
Accepting defeat with honor & dignity has it's place, but...
it is NOT Winning!
Best Wishes to ALL.
I do not think anyone is criticizing Mark Wilson the man or what he is doing in the game, for the younger generation, or for the Game in whole or in part.
The movie North Dallas Forty was basically about the Dallas Cowboys.
Their (owner & coach) approach did not sit well with many many players.
I've said that Mark Wilson at least deserves another year, but someone also made the point that CJ Wiley got an 11-9 loss record in just his one & only year & at a time when Europe was still dominating, just like now. One more win & would have been Hill/Hill.
Some, & please note that I said SOME, of the Pro Pool players here in America are probably the most self centered individuals in the world. I wonder if there was NO MONEY involved just how many of them would even consider playing on a Mosconi Cup Team.
There is a clear difference between the European Teams that are WINNING & the USA 'Teams' that are LOSING.
One can point to the physical particulars like kicking stats, etc. but the question is why are the stats the way that they are. They are a product of & not the cause of.
The Sports psychology thing, IMO can be psyco-babble to some. Some individuals may respond well to it & some will not be affected by it at all, or perhaps even negatively affected. It amazes me that one, that does not do & is not under the pressure of, can even think that they can council those that are under the pressures & must perform under them.
The ones I would want to hear from are the one's that have been there, done that, & have succeeded rather significantly. One should want strong minds as team mates & not team mates that need & have to be convinced on how to think to try to be of a strong of mind. One either is strong of mind or one is weak of mind & trying to get strong. Which one does one want as a do or die team mate?
In a short race to 5, mistakes are much much more crucially important than a great shot.
Over confidence can breed risk taking & taking risks can yield mistakes.
A bit of 'fear' of making a crucial mistake can cut down on the chances of making those crucial mistakes.
The psyco-babble has it out of balance as it is not an either or matter. A good team mate is an unselfish team mate & one that understands what is best for the team.
Europe simply made & generally makes less crucial mistakes than the USA teams have. They are not arrogantly 'over confident'. They are simply confident enough that slow & steady play will prevail... & it has.
What Pink Lady is talking about is doing the same thing that the WINNERS are doing.
The Euro Players 'LOVE' their Captains.
They love them the way Vince Lombardi's players Loved Him. There were much fewer players that loved Tom Landry.
Also...there is thin line sometime between hate & love.
Like someone said, the USA will win again when Europe loses to us for some reason like the pressure. It will probably not be because of what Mark Wilson has done or will do.
Like Adrian said to Rocky, 'I just want you to do one thing for me... WIN!'.
Like Al Davis said, 'Just WIN Baby!'.
Like Vince Lombardi said, 'Winning isn't everything... but it's the ONLY thing worth striving for.'.
Accepting defeat with honor & dignity has it's place, but...
it is NOT Winning!
Best Wishes to ALL.
Mark is doing all that any person could. It would be like trying to build a house but only being able to work one weekend a year, the plans change every year and the people you work with are all positive they are the best carpenters in the world.
The most important thing Mark has done is put a team out there thats professional and represents America well. There have been years before Mark was in place I was embarrassed at the conduct of the team. No one on earth fires a coach after two games in football or two weeks in baseball and thats all the time he has had in action. Everyone can always improve or change things and I would bet Mark is the first to think about how to adapt and get better. I don't agree with all his decisions but he has earned the right to try things his way by putting out a team that respects the fans and the event.
As for picking the players I love the idea of trials. Give the Captain one pick. Give out qualifying points to whatever events Matchroom wants and take the top eight or ten guys. Have a pool room host a Mosconi Cup Trials event where they play round robin. Top four go with the Captains pick. Or hell top three and Mark can pick the two who help the team the most if they come up a little short in the round robin. Whatever.
The most important thing Mark has done is put a team out there thats professional and represents America well. There have been years before Mark was in place I was embarrassed at the conduct of the team. No one on earth fires a coach after two games in football or two weeks in baseball and thats all the time he has had in action. Everyone can always improve or change things and I would bet Mark is the first to think about how to adapt and get better. I don't agree with all his decisions but he has earned the right to try things his way by putting out a team that respects the fans and the event.
As for picking the players I love the idea of trials. Give the Captain one pick. Give out qualifying points to whatever events Matchroom wants and take the top eight or ten guys. Have a pool room host a Mosconi Cup Trials event where they play round robin. Top four go with the Captains pick. Or hell top three and Mark can pick the two who help the team the most if they come up a little short in the round robin. Whatever.
Didn't you see what happened the last time a round robin tournament was tried? I believe you were there first hand. :smile:
SmoothStroke,
That particular video is about choking and while it is a great video,the kicking deficit by the USA team had nothing to do with choking, imo.
One on one lessons with a successful sports psychologist is the way to go for improving the mental game.
Like you, I have learned plenty about the mental game in recent years by mining the Internet but have also spent money working directly with sport psychologists.
JoeyA
P.S. Still need massive work on mental game.
That particular video is about choking and while it is a great video,the kicking deficit by the USA team had nothing to do with choking, imo.
One on one lessons with a successful sports psychologist is the way to go for improving the mental game.
Like you, I have learned plenty about the mental game in recent years by mining the Internet but have also spent money working directly with sport psychologists.
JoeyA
P.S. Still need massive work on mental game.
Last edited:
Valid point.
My thinking for the round robin is playing races to five cup style I dont see how else you could do it. Part of the whole process would be trying to recreate as much of the pressure/format as possible. There would certainly be room for shenanigans as with any round robin but I think in this case the juice could be worth the squeeze.
What do you think is the best way to pick? Serious question. I think you understand the format and all its quirks as well as anyone I have talked to about it. How do you get guys prepared for it?
How about 5 tournaments on 9 ft. tables, race to 5, those 5 winners are the team?
Thats interesting.
I had an idea that would get some team dynamics going on but it would require the Captain to pick all five final members. Here you go:
Top Ten points qualifiers go to the trials. The odd number qualifiers are Team Red. The even numbers are Team Blue. Run the full cup format. You get to see the players in the team dynamic and the stress it adds. When its all said and done Captain picks the the best five for the squad based on performance and who makes their team better.
I see some holes but I like the idea of making it as close to the cup format as possible with as many of the stressors in place as possible. Biggest hole is it devalues the points a bit because they just get you a shot at the trials and not a guaranteed pay day. Plus side is it could be a hell of a way to generate buzz for not much money.
If your #1 points guy dogs his brains out or brings his team down...thanks for coming try again next year. If the number 10 guy makes everyone around better and performs he gets a spot. I think it would be a better way to choose a team but like I said it has some holes.
Last edited:
I thought this was a pool/billiard site....but it's hard to find any knowledge here.
The discussion about our lack of kicking ability is laughable. Yes, we missed more than they did. Skylar missed two kicks that missed the object ball by a 1/16 of an inch or so as he tried to hit the right side to have a chance to kick safe. Anther one he had to bend the cue ball because there was no natural path. One of Justin's kicks was a masse attempt after he hooked himself against Darren. And there were some that weren't very good at all. But that isn't even close to what decided this years Cup.
This years Cup ended up 11-7 Europe. In the last 5 matches, 3 of them were decided by unfortunate rolls. Shane had the 9 snapped in on him hill hill. Justin hooked himself hill hill. And Skylar had a 2 ball kicked in on him hill hill. Those were three very strong rolls against Team USA. IF those three rolls go the other way.....Team USA is leading 10-8.
But...the rolls count. I'm not whining about the rolls. I'm only bringing that up to show how close the match was.
So what was the difference? The difference was in the amount of UNFORCED errors. Missing kicks is a FORCED error in my book. Forced by your opponents successful safety. At least many of them. Team USA started the match by winning, got a bit forturnate, and won the team match. Then, the wheels came off as they consistently got out of line in their run outs. It improved later in the match....but only after the hole was dug too deep.
When I play and lose, I quickly analyze whether to flip the coin again. If I played poorly....and/or....the other guy got the rolls....I flip it. I play again. I figure I won't play that bad forever....or....the rolls will even out. Maybe both. If Team USA played Europe again.....and didn't make the early mistakes they made.....and Europe was fighting from behind the entire time....things might have been different. Then again...maybe not.
My overall point is....most here are whining about the quality of our team. They are talking about changes they'd like to see....in players and coach. But the smart money says....the difference between these two teams has lessened. And lessened greatly. Lessened to the point that 3 key rolls decided the outcome.....EVEN WHILE MANY OF OUR PLAYERS DID NOT PLAY UP TO THEIR ABILITY.
This was the most exciting Mosconi Cup of my lifetime. Would've loved to see Team USA win. But....this is right where the Cup needs to be....with two very competitive teams made up of great players battling it out.
Things HAVE changed. The Euro's know it. They felt it. Now if we can play well early....stop missing easy 8 balls....or easy 9 balls....stay in line and finish our run outs.....and apply pressure instead of receiving it....the score will be in our favor our share of the time.
As bad as we played early on....it very easily could have been USA 10, Europe 8....in the 18 games played.
No change in personnel needed.
The discussion about our lack of kicking ability is laughable. Yes, we missed more than they did. Skylar missed two kicks that missed the object ball by a 1/16 of an inch or so as he tried to hit the right side to have a chance to kick safe. Anther one he had to bend the cue ball because there was no natural path. One of Justin's kicks was a masse attempt after he hooked himself against Darren. And there were some that weren't very good at all. But that isn't even close to what decided this years Cup.
This years Cup ended up 11-7 Europe. In the last 5 matches, 3 of them were decided by unfortunate rolls. Shane had the 9 snapped in on him hill hill. Justin hooked himself hill hill. And Skylar had a 2 ball kicked in on him hill hill. Those were three very strong rolls against Team USA. IF those three rolls go the other way.....Team USA is leading 10-8.
But...the rolls count. I'm not whining about the rolls. I'm only bringing that up to show how close the match was.
So what was the difference? The difference was in the amount of UNFORCED errors. Missing kicks is a FORCED error in my book. Forced by your opponents successful safety. At least many of them. Team USA started the match by winning, got a bit forturnate, and won the team match. Then, the wheels came off as they consistently got out of line in their run outs. It improved later in the match....but only after the hole was dug too deep.
When I play and lose, I quickly analyze whether to flip the coin again. If I played poorly....and/or....the other guy got the rolls....I flip it. I play again. I figure I won't play that bad forever....or....the rolls will even out. Maybe both. If Team USA played Europe again.....and didn't make the early mistakes they made.....and Europe was fighting from behind the entire time....things might have been different. Then again...maybe not.
My overall point is....most here are whining about the quality of our team. They are talking about changes they'd like to see....in players and coach. But the smart money says....the difference between these two teams has lessened. And lessened greatly. Lessened to the point that 3 key rolls decided the outcome.....EVEN WHILE MANY OF OUR PLAYERS DID NOT PLAY UP TO THEIR ABILITY.
This was the most exciting Mosconi Cup of my lifetime. Would've loved to see Team USA win. But....this is right where the Cup needs to be....with two very competitive teams made up of great players battling it out.
Things HAVE changed. The Euro's know it. They felt it. Now if we can play well early....stop missing easy 8 balls....or easy 9 balls....stay in line and finish our run outs.....and apply pressure instead of receiving it....the score will be in our favor our share of the time.
As bad as we played early on....it very easily could have been USA 10, Europe 8....in the 18 games played.
No change in personnel needed.
Last edited:
I agree with a lot of what you say but the thing is the US always loses because they make more unforced errors. Also they usually failed to make the Euros pay when they made one. This year was certainly progress but to act like the US just barely missed I think is giving them a bit too much credit. Especially considering where they are gonna be playing next year.
I like that idea along with adding something on this lines with an AtLarge - Accustats scoring mechanism to give the player an overall rating to add to his win/loss. Not sure a player should be dinged hard because in a race to 5, alternate break if your opponent broke and ran all his racks and you lose 5-3 making one mistake.
The only way to do a round robin tournament would be to put each of the 10 players in isolation chambers. Pull two out at a time, play their match and then put them back in their chamber. This was when Player X is best friends with Player Y and it comes down to their last match, and Player X is 4-0, he lets his buddy win. For that matter, you put the players up that you know are close friends with each other against each other first.
Or have 12 players who are the top point getters, do a 16 man double elim tourney - race to 5. Top 4 point getters through out the year get a bye in the first round. Top 4 finishers and one captain pick is your team. And the tournament is run with their opponent allowed to scream at the other player from a distance of 6 feet whenever he wants --- next years event will be in front of 2500 drunk Europeans, let's see who can take the heat.
They want to have all these point tourneys all across the country, tying in some of the regional tours along with national events. Well, let's say SVB was Donny Mills and didn't like to travel. What tournaments are gonna be convenient to him in Sioux Falls SD. While Oscar gets to play in a dozen events in California/Vegas throughout the year that are within 3 hours of his house.
And Corey shit in a 9 ball, shit in some other ball in another game and ran out in his singles match. Dechaine missed a ball so bad it two railed out of the corner and went in the opposite corner and he ran out. There was luck wins on the USA side as well.
I'd like to know what bars and pool halls these guys played in while growing up if they are so fragile mentally they can't handle having Earl on their team.
It would bother me a lot more watching a teammate who is supposedly world class player miss a one rail kick. I have nothing against Mark or any of the players but stop with all the drama.
I like that a lot & have suggested something along those lines.
The Capt. picks the whole team & then it is HIS Team. That alone can form a bond between Team Members & Capt.
NFL teams have learned that even the best of talent is not worth having on the team nor in the locker room.
I'm not speaking of anyone in particular but how you have laid it out is what we need.
How about 10 tournaments on 9 ft. tables, races to 5 with those winners qualifying for your team vs team audition for the Captain's picks?
Like Pink Lady said, there are many ideas & thoughts here on AZB that might be of very good use & Match Room should look ate everything.
Best Wishes to You & Yours...
& All.
Last edited:
Justin played/gambled in places in St Louis like The Sportscenter and Ride the Rail or Billiards on Broadway. He learned how to take the heat - that is why he played the best under the pressure of the MC.
Why not let the players pick their teams?
For instance... if Bergman, Hall, Chip, Joey, and Skylar decided that they had a chance then they could sign up as a team. If Johnny, Shane, Rodney, Earl, Hatch teamed up then they are in. If Corey, Mike, Sossie, Mills, Oscar sign up then they are in. And so on and so on.
The teams that sign up have a team type tournament and the winning team is team U.S.A.
For instance... if Bergman, Hall, Chip, Joey, and Skylar decided that they had a chance then they could sign up as a team. If Johnny, Shane, Rodney, Earl, Hatch teamed up then they are in. If Corey, Mike, Sossie, Mills, Oscar sign up then they are in. And so on and so on.
The teams that sign up have a team type tournament and the winning team is team U.S.A.