Mark Wilson's New Book

So at a price of $70 he is just "sharing" his material and not trying to turn a profit? Right .....;)

Think what you want but I doubt anyone would poor 10 years worth of work into something and then pay someone to publish it and print it and then just say, "Ya know what, lets just give the thing away!"

I spent $300 to have a lesson with Mark, I doubt we covered 1/10 of what is inside that book and I feel like it was worth every penny. If you have met the man I think you would see that this book was more about leaving a legacy than making a profit.

I can't blame anyone for wanting to save money, especially in this day and age, but I think if you knew the costs and effort that went into this you would see it in a different light. I don't care if you buy it or not, in fact it's better for me if you don't! The more people out there that play inconsistently will only increase my chances of winning.
 
So at a price of $70 he is just "sharing" his material and not trying to turn a profit? Right .....;)

Are you paid for your work?

You apparently think it's wrong for Mark to be paid for his, so I was just wondering whether you work for free, or if you unreasonably demand a paycheck from your employer.

I happen to be starting up a publishing business right now and I know a lot about that world, and I can tell you that Mark Wilson will never pay his time on this project. That is, he might recoup his monetary investment. Plus some, if he's lucky. But if you factor in the number of hours he spent producing the book (and the hours he is now spending fulfilling the orders), it's very unlikely he will earn as much as minimum wage for all those hours. IMO.

Certainly not on this printing. He might reach break even on his time if the book becomes a classic and goes on to three or more printings. If he's like 97% of self publishers, though, he'll get tired of all the work long before that happens.

Mike

P.S. We are doing cost analyses for our first books right now. In my semi-expert opinion, a more reasonable price for Mark's book (given the parameters of the project, not the market and not factoring for market resistance such as what you've expressed) would be about $125.
 
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I could totally be wrong but $70 is pretty steep compared to other pool books. I could be totally wrong tho.

If you compare content $70 is like stealing, I mean stealing for the purchaser. Anyone that has poured their lifetime of knowledge like Mark has is practically giving it away for $70.

I think $70 is dirt cheap considering the info, which can't be found anywhere else! YMMV
 
I spoke to Mark about trying to buy his book in bulk to resell through my website and local customers and he declined. He was very pleasant and I could tell this book was much more so a labor of love than trying to turn a profit. It sounded like the initial run was only for 1000 books and the $70 even includes shipping. With as nice as the book is printed I cannot imagine there is much profit at all, and if there is it is very well deserved. All that matters to me is that I got my copy and anyone who wants to get better at pool should also. http://playgreatpool.com/InstructionBook.aspx
 
Old Dog New Tricks

My experience matches yours. A local shortstop diagnosed some problems with my stroke (chicken wing and wrist curl). I worked on it before Wilson's book and was having a tough time making progress.

Come to get Wilson's book, and he flags my exact problems and states that they are usually the result of wrongly positioned feet. Following the instructions in the book has helped a lot already--it gets the cue away from my body and more under my elbow. I still need to get the new stance from my conscious to my muscle memory. But it's already helped, especially on long straight shots and tight cuts.

Buy the book!

Chicken wing and wrist curl. Sounds like me. When I whipped my arm around after taking a shot while getting a lesson from Danny Diliberto once, he said, "Take it easy there. I feel like I'm in a sword fight."

I have been trying to straighten my stroke for years. I have several stroke trainers at home that I have purchased over the years. Probably over $100 for each of them.

I have the Wilson book and cannot get beyond Chapter 6. That is because I have been changing my stance and stroke and doing those drills daily for about a month now.

I have a ton more body clearance with my stroke. I rarely whip my arm after my stroke. My game has improved somewhat, but I know I still have a ways to go to make this new stroke permanent.

Even at my advanced age, I am excited about the improvement in my game. It has been noticed by others in my straight pool league. My bpi has been up a couple of balls for the last month. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but the early returns are encouraging and I look forward to the future of my pool game.
 
I could totally be wrong but $70 is pretty steep compared to other pool books. I could be totally wrong tho.

How many hours of pool do you play per year? If you only play 70, if the book increases your enjoyment of that 70 hours, that's $1 per hour. 70 hours per year would be very little, between practice and playing, I invest that every month.

If you're passionate about pool, committed to getting better and are able to put in the table time to do so, the book is one of the greatest bargains on the planet. There are numerous individual chapters in the book that are worth $70 all by themselves IMHO.

If you're just a recreational player and aren't committed to practicing to incorporate the things you learn from the book, save your money. It certainly isn't the silver bullet that will cure all that ails you by just reading it.
 
How many hours of pool do you play per year? If you only play 70, if the book increases your enjoyment of that 70 hours, that's $1 per hour. 70 hours per year would be very little, between practice and playing, I invest that every month.

If you're passionate about pool, committed to getting better and are able to put in the table time to do so, the book is one of the greatest bargains on the planet. There are numerous individual chapters in the book that are worth $70 all by themselves IMHO.

If you're just a recreational player and aren't committed to practicing to incorporate the things you learn from the book, save your money. It certainly isn't the silver bullet that will cure all that ails you by just reading it.

Good post! I hope to have my copy of his book by the end of this month. I plan on going to see him at the end of January. ( maybe I can pick up a few more pointers, God knows I could use them!)
 
woah woah woah, hold the phone guys..... It seems EVERYONE is misinterpreting what I said, I simply replied to a comment saying that mark made the book to share and not turn a profit, my reply was that he priced the book at a selling price to obviously turn a profit, I mean why wouldn't he?

I did not once say the book was overpriced, not worth it, too expensive.. All I said was Isn't $70 a bit steep for a pool book, comparing it to other pool books......

Everyone above took what I said WAY out of context and started implying that I thought the book was overpriced and not worth it, I NEVER said that and I don't discredit anything Mark Wilson is or has been doing for pool.

So please, don't take what I said and blow it out of proportion.... while making me look like the bad guy.
 
woah woah woah, hold the phone guys..... It seems EVERYONE is misinterpreting what I said, I simply replied to a comment saying that mark made the book to share and not turn a profit, my reply was that he priced the book at a selling price to obviously turn a profit, I mean why wouldn't he?

I did not once say the book was overpriced, not worth it, too expensive.. All I said was Isn't $70 a bit steep for a pool book, comparing it to other pool books......

Everyone above took what I said WAY out of context and started implying that I thought the book was overpriced and not worth it, I NEVER said that and I don't discredit anything Mark Wilson is or has been doing for pool.

So please, don't take what I said and blow it out of proportion.... while making me look like the bad guy.

Wait until you see it. Hard back cover. Very high quality glossy pages. Tons and tons of photos/illustrations/diagrams. Given the relatively low volume involved, I'm surprised he can afford to sell it for $70. In the printing business, 1,000 copies is nothing. I have no affiliation with Mark Wilson whatsoever, unfortunately, I've never met or spoken with him (I hope to take a lesson in the future). This is just my honest opinion, obviously, I'm very impressed with his book.
 
Are you paid for your work?

You apparently think it's wrong for Mark to be paid for his, so I was just wondering whether you work for free, or if you unreasonably demand a paycheck from your employer.

I happen to be starting up a publishing business right now and I know a lot about that world, and I can tell you that Mark Wilson will never pay his time on this project. That is, he might recoup his monetary investment. Plus some, if he's lucky. But if you factor in the number of hours he spent producing the book (and the hours he is now spending fulfilling the orders), it's very unlikely he will earn as much as minimum wage for all those hours. IMO.

Certainly not on this printing. He might reach break even on his time if the book becomes a classic and goes on to three or more printings. If he's like 97% of self publishers, though, he'll get tired of all the work long before that happens.

Mike

P.S. We are doing cost analyses for our first books right now. In my semi-expert opinion, a more reasonable price for Mark's book (given the parameters of the project, not the market and not factoring for market resistance such as what you've expressed) would be about $125.

Ok slow down for a second cowboy.

Why do you assume that I think it's wrong for Mark to be paid for his work? You are the one that said he released this book to share the knowledge and not turn a profit, I replied to your quote and said sarcastically that obviously Mark priced the book to turn a profit from the book, as he should be....afterall this is his job, he's a professional and should get paid for it.

I am in no way against Mark being paid for his work, I don't know where you came up with that outrageous claim but you need to slow down to think before you point the finger and accuse me of thinking Mark shouldn't get paid for his work.
 
woah woah woah, hold the phone guys..... It seems EVERYONE is misinterpreting what I said, I simply replied to a comment saying that mark made the book to share and not turn a profit, my reply was that he priced the book at a selling price to obviously turn a profit, I mean why wouldn't he?

I did not once say the book was overpriced, not worth it, too expensive.. All I said was Isn't $70 a bit steep for a pool book, comparing it to other pool books......

Everyone above took what I said WAY out of context and started implying that I thought the book was overpriced and not worth it, I NEVER said that and I don't discredit anything Mark Wilson is or has been doing for pool.

So please, don't take what I said and blow it out of proportion.... while making me look like the bad guy.

Yeah, it does look like you got raked over the coals a bit. I get what you are saying and I am not sure who said he did it to share his knowledge but maybe you are taking his comment the wrong way as well.

I think Mark is "sharing" his info with this book. That doesn't mean he shouldn't charge accordingly for it. He is probably already going in the hole with this venture. The price in reflective of the material I assure you.
 
Think what you want but I doubt anyone would poor 10 years worth of work into something and then pay someone to publish it and print it and then just say, "Ya know what, lets just give the thing away!"

I totally agree, thats what I was implying in my comment.

Where did I turn into the bad guy and claim that Mark's book isn't worth $70? sheesh now I remember why I don't come in the main forum anymore.
 
If you compare content $70 is like stealing, I mean stealing for the purchaser. Anyone that has poured their lifetime of knowledge like Mark has is practically giving it away for $70.

I think $70 is dirt cheap considering the info, which can't be found anywhere else! YMMV

Sorry for crowding this thread so much, but I know books (I collect photography books and I'm about to start publishing them) and while MOJOE is right, there's really something more that needs to be said here. YOU NEED TO GET THIS BOOK WHILE YOU CAN. Here's what I mean:

Publishing is structured for books that have high demand that quickly tapers to nothing. A friend of mine had a book commercially published and was told that if the book hadn't paid for itself in 7 months, the publisher would remainder it. The publishing industry is structured for best-sellers...the industry publishes ten books for every one that turns a profit, and the reward comes when one catches fire and earns ten or twenty or a hundred or a thousand times what it cost to produce. Those best-sellers can earn millions and pay for all the "duds" that earn little or nothing. The hits pay for the misses, as they say.

Photo books (and I mention them because I'm 90% certain Mark's book will be similar) are different. There, the demand "curve" is a straight but low line. That is, there's a low but steady AND CONTINUING demand. It used to be possible to serve this type of market, because some publishers (especially academic ones) were content to print a lot of books and keep them in a warehouse and let them trickle out slowly. (The legend is that Oxford University Press once had NOS--new old stock--printed over 100 years ago that it was selling as new!) But Reagan changed the tax code in the U.S. and now publishers have to pay tax on stock. The result is that it's no longer economically feasible here to commercially print books that sell slowly but steadily. (Printing on demand and e-publishing are changing that now, but we don't need to get into that.)

In the photography field, what happens is that books are printed in low numbers (in photobooks, 1000 to 3000 is the norm) published for a certain price--say, $70. They might sell slowly. They might even be remaindered (cleared) at a loss (say $20). Then they're gone. But AFTER they're gone, that low but steady demand is still there. First it sucks up all the remainders. Then it scavenges the used copies sold by people who bought it but don't want to keep it. Gradually the copies for sale become scarce. That low but steady demand is still there, though, and it works on the market just as you expect it would--the price for used copies steadily goes up. Before long, the price for a used copy passes what the book sold for at new retail. If there's enough demand, then the price can even skyrocket. I've seen many, many examples of out-of-print books selling for very high prices (go to Amazon and look up "Winogrand 1964," a book I dearly wish I had bought when it was new in 2002. If you don't want to look, the prices for used copies on Amazon right this minute--I just looked--range from $360 to $2000, for a book that was probably published at around $40).

THEN, if the price goes high enough, what SOMETIMES happens is that the publisher will see that the demand is still there, and reprint the book. The price then drops to that initial retail $70 again (but in photography, the earlier editions still cost more, just not as much more). Or something near it.

The trouble with this is that you never know if there's going to be a reprint. Some classic books have been reprinted as many as five times, and the earlier reprints are now collectible! E.g. Robert Frank's "The Americans." Availability and accessibility then depends on whether there's a reprint that's current or not. Or, other factors might intervene--for instance, with my website's "Book of the Year" for 2012, Pentti Sammallahti's "Here Far Away," published by Dewi Lewis in England, the first printing sold out quickly, and the price for used copies rose above new retail very quickly, but the planned reprint was delayed for almost a year. The reason was that Pentti wanted to be on press for the second press run as he was for the first, and he was experiencing health problems.

Here's what I think is going to happen with Mark's book. He will sell out the initial print run of 1000, in some number of months or years. He will then be faced with a decision: whether to do another press run. The decision isn't entirely economic: it's possible he might look back on all the work of the first printing and decide he doesn't want to go through it again; he might (god forbid) be experiencing a health change; he might have a new job that takes up all his time. He might also think there's just not enough demand to warrant a second printing.

My bet is that this book will go into a second printing (probably in paperback). Reason: word of mouth. As pool people realize what a great book it is, word will get around. That takes time, but it will happen with this book.

BUT, eventually, there will be no more copies. BUT PEOPLE WILL STILL WANT THE BOOK. That translates to scarcity and high price, just as in the photo book field. My guess is that the process with Mark's book will take longer than it does with photo books (where it can happen in a span of literally months)--a few years, maybe. And I bet the used prices probably won't go so high, because (unlike in photography) there are no (or few) rabid collectors of pool books (although I'll bet there are a few), and people can enjoy pool without ever buying a book. But my opinion is that EVENTUALLY a number of people will still want this book and there won't be that many copies out there. I just have no crystal ball on the time frame.

Right now it's available for new retail, direct from Mark, first edition, first printing, signed by the author (mine has a signed plate and I assume they all do). For only $70. My semi-expert advice: if you're interested or think you might be in the future, nab one while you can. I don't think you will ever regret it. Or rather, I think the possibility of regret is higher if you don't buy it now than if you do buy it now.

(I should add that I don't know Mark and have no stake in the book except as a purchaser and a student of the game.)

Man, I just talked myself into buying a copy. Too bad I already have one, I'd go buy one.

Mike
 
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I totally agree, thats what I was implying in my comment.

Where did I turn into the bad guy and claim that Mark's book isn't worth $70? sheesh now I remember why I don't come in the main forum anymore.

Well the problem with the written word is that the reader has to determine the writers feelings on the subject. It's a easy thing to mistake.

I must admit though your original post did sound like you were judging him harshly for charging that amount under the guise of "sharing".

Maybe it too could have been a little more clear as to avoid a misunderstanding.
 
I totally agree, thats what I was implying in my comment.

Where did I turn into the bad guy and claim that Mark's book isn't worth $70? sheesh now I remember why I don't come in the main forum anymore.

You turned into the bad guy, when you posted your thoughts on a forum!

Some people CAN'T read between the lines, some CAN'T READ AT ALL, and some choose to make ANY and EVERYBODY who isn't TOTALLY lock-step in agreement with THEIR views a "bad guy".

You answered part of your own question with the "why I don't come in the main forum anymore" statement.
 
Sorry for crowding this thread so much, but I know books (I collect photography books and I'm about to start publishing them) and while MOJOE is right, there's really something more that needs to be said here. YOU NEED TO GET THIS BOOK WHILE YOU CAN. Here's what I mean:

Publishing is structured for books that have high demand that quickly tapers to nothing. A friend of mine had a book commercially published and was told that if the book hadn't paid for itself in 7 months, the publisher would remainder it. The publishing industry is structured for best-sellers...the industry publishes ten books for every one that turns a profit, and the reward comes when one catches fire and earns ten or twenty or a hundred or a thousand times what it cost to produce. Those best-sellers can earn millions and pay for all the "duds" that earn little or nothing. The hits pay for the misses, as they say.

Photo books (and I mention them because I'm 90% certain Mark's book will be similar) are different. There, the demand "curve" is a straight but low line. That is, there's a low but steady AND CONTINUING demand. It used to be possible to serve this type of market, because some publishers (especially academic ones) were content to print a lot of books and keep them in a warehouse and let them trickle out slowly. (The legend is that Oxford University Press once had NOS--new old stock--printed over 100 years ago that it was selling as new!) But Reagan changed the tax code and now publishers have to pay tax on stock. The result is that it's no longer economically feasible to commercially print books that sell slowly but steadily. (Printing on demand and e-publishing are changing that now, but we don't need to get into that.)

In the photography field, what happens is that books are printed in low numbers (in photobooks, 1000 to 3000 is the norm) published for a certain price--say, $70. They might sell slowly. They might even be remaindered (cleared) at a loss (say $20). Then they're gone. But AFTER they're gone, that low but steady demand is still there. First it sucks up all the remainders. Then it scavenges the used copies sold by people who bought it but don't want to keep it. Gradually the copies for sale become scarce. That low but steady demand is still there, though, and it works on the market just as you expect it would--the price for used copies steadily goes up. Before long, the price for a used copy passes what the book sold for at new retail. If there's enough demand, then the price can even skyrocket. I've seen many, many examples of out-of-print books selling for very high prices (go to Amazon and look up "Winogrand 1964," a book I dearly wish I had bought when it was new in 2002. If you don't want to look, the prices for used copies on Amazon right this minute--I just looked--range from $360 to $2000, for a book that was probably published at around $40).

THEN, if the price goes high enough, what SOMETIMES happens is that the publisher will see that the demand is still there, and reprint the book. The price then drops to that initial retail $70 again (but in photography, the earlier editions still cost more, just not as much more). Or something near it.

The trouble with this is that you never know if there's going to be a reprint. Some classic books have been reprinted as many as five times, and the earlier reprints are now collectible! Cf. Robert Frank's "The Americans." Availability and accessibility then depends on whether there's a reprint that's current or not. Or, other factors might intervene--for instance, with my website's "Book of the Year" for 2012, Pentti Sammallahti's "Here Far Away," published by Dewi Lewis in England, the first printing sold out quickly, and the price for used copies rose above new retail very quickly, but the planned reprint was delayed for almost a year. The reason was that Pentti wanted to be on press for the second press run as he was for the first, and he was experiencing health problems.

Here's what I think is going to happen with Mark's book. He will sell out the initial print run of 1000, in some number of months or years. He will then be faced with a decision: whether to do another press run. The decision isn't entirely economic: it's possible he might look back on all the work of the first printing and decide he doesn't want to go through it again; he might (god forbid) be experiencing a health change; he might have a new job that takes up all his time. He might also think there's just not enough demand to warrant a second printing.

My bet is that this book will go into a second printing (probably in paperback). Reason: word of mouth. As pool people realize what a great book it is, word will get around. That takes time, but it will happen with this book.

BUT, eventually, there will be no more copies. BUT PEOPLE WILL STILL WANT THE BOOK. That translates to scarcity and high price, just as in the photo book field. My guess is that the process with Mark's book will take longer than it does with photo books (where it can happen in a span of literally months)--a few years, maybe. And I bet the used prices probably won't go so high, because (unlike in photography) there are no (or few) rabid book collectors, and you can play pool without ever buying a single book. But my opinion is that EVENTUALLY a number of people will still want this book and there won't be that many copies out there. I just have no crystal ball on the time frame.

Right now it's available for new retail, direct from Mark, first edition, first printing, signed by the author (mine has a signed plate and I assume they all do). For only $70. My semi-expert advice: if you're interested or think you might be in the future, nab one while you can. I don't think you will ever regret it. Or rather, I think the possibility of regret is higher if you don't buy it now than if you do buy it now.

(I should add that I don't know Mark and have no stake in the book except as a purchaser and a student of the game.)

Man, I just talked myself into buying a copy. Too bad I already have one, I'd go buy one.

Mike

Great post! Thanks for taking the time to enlighten those of us (ME!) that didn't know how this really works.
 
You turned into the bad guy, when you posted your thoughts on a forum!

Some people CAN'T read between the lines, some CAN'T READ AT ALL, and some choose to make ANY and EVERYBODY who isn't TOTALLY lock-step in agreement with THEIR views a "bad guy".

You answered part of your own question with the "why I don't come in the main forum anymore" statement.

Waynes-World-Were-not-Worthy.gif
 
woah woah woah, .

So please, don't take what I said and blow it out of proportion.... while making me look like the bad guy.

RT6,
I hope I didn't come off critical....you have every right to question the price. I was just trying to clarify for everyone (not bring them down on you :-)).

My medical texts are $250-$500 apiece; and were the model for our pool textbook. I tried to get Mark to charge at least double what he is; but he would not even consider it. He figured if he could sell a thousand over several years (doubtful) that he might break even on his out of pocket expenses.

Check out Buddy Hall's "From Rags to Rifleman" or Eddie Robins "Winning One Pocket" or "Shots, Moves, and Strategies." You will be lucky to find them for under $250. I believe Mike is correct...in 5 or 10 years Mark's book is likely to be scarce and expensive (but I will have mine, and that's really all I care about :-)).

Anyway, I hope you don't feel too criticized....the people that actually buy it can see it immediately for what it is - one of a kind. If you buy it and don't like it, I'll buy it back from you to make up for any unpleasantness in this thread (though I thought everyone, yourself included, was quite polite by AZB standards :smile:).
 
Yeah, it does look like you got raked over the coals a bit. I get what you are saying and I am not sure who said he did it to share his knowledge but maybe you are taking his comment the wrong way as well.

I think Mark is "sharing" his info with this book. That doesn't mean he shouldn't charge accordingly for it. He is probably already going in the hole with this venture. The price in reflective of the material I assure you.

Raked over the coals? You're kidding, right? I've been on forums where people do get raked over the coals. In this thread, there was no name calling, no insults, no profanity or no threats of physical violence to the OP or his family/friends. He didn't even come close to getting raked over the coals IMHO. While the wording of his initial post could have been taken as implying the cost was higher than the value, he didn't deserve to get raked over the coals. He asked a question, in a slightly less than diplomatic manner, and he got responses.

People that think this thread represents raking over the coals are perhaps a bit too sensitive for an internet forum. I don't get that but it is what it is.
 
P.S. - by "sharing" I mean sharing information which is something the masters have really NEVER done in 150 years, MUCH to the detriment of the sport. I didn't mean giving it away (sharing implies an equal sharing of the cost).
 
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