Master mech at work at the Pred event now

chefjeff said:
Do any of these companies give the customer what HE wants?

OK, maybe I asked the wrong question....

Do any of these companies hire marketing experts or do they do what most pool businesses do and just wing it?


Jeff Livingston
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I think in the instance of the Predator table, they tried to fit a square peg in a round hole by taking a table designed to be setup and left alone and tried to use it in a fashion (carted up and moved around, setup multiple times) the design was never intended for. They obviously did not anticipate all the reactions carting and moving would have on all aspects of the unit.
 
chefjeff said:
Do any of these companies give the customer what HE wants?

OK, maybe I asked the wrong question....

Do any of these companies hire marketing experts or do they do what most pool businesses do and just wing it?


Jeff Livingston
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trentfromtoledo said:
REAL TALK> Engineers need to work IN THE FIELD and ON THE ACTUAL PRODUCT!! So many areas of our life become difficult and most manufacturers worry more about $$$ in manufacturing and less about the product working properly and no on usually gives a crap about the guys installing or servicing any type of equipment.

I appreciate what Bill and Eric at the Billiard Factory in Jacksonville and all of the other mechanics, are doing for Predator.

Our industry needs change... I saw a picture of Greg Sullivan and his hillbilly posse at Derby this year: JUST PUTTING THIS OUT THERE, KARIM AND THE PREDATOR CREW GOT YOU BEAT OLD DOG, RETIRE...... YOU ALL ARE OLD AND TIRED LOOKING>

TFT

Diamond has the worst 3 piece- slate in the business, just because you can bend it, plate it and drill it. Still don't make it FLAT on its own or RIGHT. For how much more time it takes and that its not flat: its just wrong and always costs me time and money on 3 piece slate tables. NO MORE EVER.
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Addressing both of you.

The reality is that if a company let the design and test engineers build what they wanted, the product would almost always be amazing and the company would almost always go out of business. The products would be too expensive.

I used to work for a company that was known to be very expensive in it's sector. They were also known to always over deliver. We had no production engineers and no marketing people. We didn't have sales people or purchasers. We only had engineers who designed, got parts built, assembled and tested the product, then went to the site to install the product. The engineers also supported their own designs.

It only worked because of the business we were in.
 
rexus31 said:
I think in the instance of the Predator table, they tried to fit a square peg in a round hole by taking a table designed to be setup and left alone and tried to use it in a fashion (carted up and moved around, setup multiple times) the design was never intended for. They obviously did not anticipate all the reactions carting and moving would have on all aspects of the unit.
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A fine answer, but too easy and incomplete. If the source of the problem is as rkc and others believe, then insufficient engineering was done which means that the marketing machine was running the show.

This would reinforce my opinion of predator. None of their claims have shown any engineering that support them.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
A fine answer, but too easy and incomplete. If the source of the problem is as rkc and others believe, then insufficient engineering was done which means that the marketing machine was running the show.
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Isn't that what my answer alluded to?
DeeDeeCues said:
This would reinforce my opinion of predator. None of their claims have shown any engineering that support them.
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I believe they did a fair amount of R&D on the Revo shaft, but that's about it. They are primarily a marketing company. If they were a manufacturer, they would have engineered a table from the ground up that checked all the boxes regarding intended use. Predator/SAM have to go back to the drawing board on the table and engineer a table that meets their requirements
 
DeeDeeCues said:
the product would almost always be amazing and the company would almost always go out of business. The products would be too expensive.
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I understand where you are coming from. I custom restore Brunswick tables and I build custom lighting, it wont fall short of this above and I won't go out of business. I don't let anyone haggle me on my prices either. The least cost combination economics that run our country are really the problem.

I would never go into a business that there is not a market of people willing to pay for the above described products and a matching market price that makes me happy. GREEED is what spoils most good products. People start making money and then say hey, we can skimp on this and that: WHAMMO WE MAKE MORE MONEY!!!

I am not saying all business's or engineers are bad. What I am saying is this: most peoples idea of business is not: I am trying to do my job and make my customer happy, rather this: I only want to do the bare minimum I can, to get other peoples money into my pocket.... I would rather quit doing what I do, than ruin it. I know I am a weirdo, but, I sleep good :)

TFT

P.s. and from what I see of Predator since I have been involved in the Billiard Industry: their BRAND AINT CHEAP and the quality is there.
 
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rexus31 said:
I think in the instance of the Predator table, they tried to fit a square peg in a round hole by taking a table designed to be setup and left alone and tried to use it in a fashion (carted up and moved around, setup multiple times) the design was never intended for. They obviously did not anticipate all the reactions carting and moving would have on all aspects of the unit.
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See how the table is picked up with the table lifter, all the weight is on the 2 cross members, resulting in bent cross members, resulting in crowned slates, resulting in bad decisions to drill the slates and pull down the crowned slate, that has no room to be pulled down on the bent cross members, NICE fix, wonder who made that stupid call!!
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I for one am not concerned whatsoever about the Predator pool tables, or their cloth showing up in the market place. I've told Chad at Diamond they have nothing to worry about, because the hacks in this industry will chew these tables up and spit them out in no time at all.

And I for one, will not be working with, on, or around these tables, nor supporting a cloth I personally would NEVER install on my own pool table!!
 
You're right about LOL copying Diamond tables😅🤣🤣had they actually did that, they wouldn't be packing in 3 piece slates, setting the tables up, and installing the cloth on site, nor would anyone be drilling the slates out to pull down a crown in the slates, or have balls HOPPING off the rails😉
 
chefjeff said:
I'm saying the manufacturers are stupid here at this tournament and generally in the whole market. I thought that was clear.

I have a small 8 foot Olhausen. It's beautiful to look at.

I'm rooting for your new idea, Trent. You seem to get it.



Jeff Livingston
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No one has fought more for change in this industry than I have. And on that note, as long as hacks can blame their lack of skills needed to turn out a perfect job on the table manufacturers, slate manufacturers, and cloth manufacturers, blaming THEM for slowing down their work, because TIME IS MONEY! You're really missing the root of the problem, its 99% the fault of the hack doing the work, because they DON'T want to spend anymore time working on your pool table than what they feel is right, it's NOT about YOU being the customer, its ALL about their MONEY! When I work on pool tables, I have a starting time, but NO expect finish time, because I'm NOT going to rush through the job just so I can be on time to my NEXT job!! When customers as me how long the job is going to take, I always give the same answer, I don't know, but when I'm done I'll be able to give that answer then.

Also, if s customer give ms me a limited window of time to work on their pool table, I tell them that's fine, call someone else! I REFUSE to cut a job short on time, or NOT do my best work that I'm capable of doing, just to get paid and be done with the job! I don't give a shit about how the slate seams line up, as I NEVER expect them to from ANY slate manufacturer, be it Brunswick, Diamond, Olhausen, Gabriels or ANY other tables i CHOOSE to work on, as a PROFESSIONAL pool table mechanic, it's MY responsibility to make the seams match perfect, not cry about them being imperfect, who cares, as long as when the job is done, the table is perfect!
In ALL the years I've been working on pool tables, I've only rejected 2 sets of 9ft Brunswick slates, in which I had Brunswick replace at no charge, 2 sets of 9ft Golden West slates, which got replaced, no charge, and 1 set of 8ft Diamond slates, that I actually put together, then came back and replaced the miss matched 3 piece slates with a 1 piece 8ft slate. Other than those slates, I just don't have any issues with Diamond slates, and neither does any of the Diamond mechanics that install them on a regular basis, I fact I've made it a point to call Chad to let him know a set of slates i put together were absolutely perfect from the manufacturer they got them from, so I was impressed.

So, bottom line is either you're a professional table mechanic, or a professional installer, and can do your job, or you're NOT, and want to blame everyone else for your lack of skills.

So, its up to the customer to decide who they hire, but I've tried explaining how to pick out a good mechanic, ask for pictures of their work, over a year old, ask for references phone numbers, and DON'T be fooled with pictures of completed work, they don't show shit about the work done NOT seen in the pictures, and THAT is what you're paying for, and have to live with!!
 
realkingcobra said:
See how the table is picked up with the table lifter, all the weight is on the 2 cross members, resulting in bent cross members, resulting in crowned slates, resulting in bad decisions to drill the slates and pull down the crowned slate, that has no room to be pulled down on the bent cross members, NICE fix, wonder who made that stupid call!!View attachment 636096
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Well, you said the table is junk and you refuse to work on them.
 
When you build a business based on buy low, sell high, but have others make your products, because specialty is remarketing for a profit, that's great for that business model.

Then next thing that business model has to do is make the public believe their products are the BEST there is to buy, and you do that by setting higher prices than the normal, why? Because there is a certain percentage of the buying market that truly believes that if the product costs more, its because its better, and to further that point, they sign up Pros to endorse those products to build confidence with the public buyers. I'll explain this more in a little while, I have a few things to get done first.
 
Ok, continuing on. In their sales platform, having recognizable players endorsing their products gives the public the confidence to buy it for themselves.

What the public fails to understand, is that all those endorsed players are PAID to used their products, in one form or another, they're NOT using them by choice, but the public don't pay attention to that part of the sales game.

Then Diamond comes along, and for the FIRST time in the history of packing everything in, setting every table up with 3 piece slates, installing the cloth on them, then assembling the tables fully, ready to play on, 9ft tournament pool tables, renting the convention centers several days in advance, as to have the time to set all the tables up, at an additional cost for the additional days needed.....and Diamond just blows away the whole entire history of using 9fts rolled in, flipped down, leveled, and ready to play on the same day, what a concept
 
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And then along comes Predator, had an offer from Diamond to build them their own tournament tables, proven to work for rolling in, setting up, and rolling back out again, not nope, not Predator, they wanted to corner the market with THEIR own pool tables, so they contract a manufacturer to build tables in their name, and make them portable. Problem is, that manufacturer has NO idea what needs to be done to built a portable pool table, and that SAME manufacturer has had failed success in the US with their pervious models because they were junk, now they're going to build the tables for Predator, great. Then, on THOSE tables, they want to market THEIR own cloth as well, for sales! Only problem is, their cloth is so damn fast even the PROS are struggling to maintain their cue ball control, combine that with crowned slates and there you have the makings of a disaster, which is what happened last week! I've NEVER heard of Pros quiting in the middle of their match because the tables played so bad, or heard of PROS posting on their Facebook page how the tables were just junk!!! But, you never heard a complaint from a single PRO on Predators payroll say one negative word about the event, why do you think THAT is?$$$
 
Then you have the dumb nut huggers that just can't wait for somebody to give Diamond competition in the pool table department, all of them thinking and talking about how great the Predator pool tables are going to be, they're going to be a new breath of fresh air, the whole 9 yards!!!
I tried telling everyone the tables were going to be junk, and that Predator wasn't designing shit because they don't know a damn thing about designing a movable pool table, but no, everyone jumped on me like I was crazy, just a Diamond nut hugger, and all that bullshit!

Well, now no one has shit to say, because I was 100% right, which makes all of them 100% wrong!

Then you got some more dumbasses on here that think Rasson and Brunswick are going to jump on the tournament cycle with THEIR pool tables as well, and EVERYONE is going to be happy because there's going to be more than enough tournaments to go around! And not ONE of you realize they don't build a TRANSPORTABLE flip down 9ft pool table, and WON'T be building them either!!

Some of you think it's no big deal to pack in 8 9fts, take hours and hours to set them up, because not ONE of those people have EVER seen the bill for renting the space needed to host an 8 table event, let alone having a CREW of experienced table mechanics all on the same page setting those tables up!

Diamond packs in 75 9fts set up and ready to play in 2 days, wonder why that is!!!!
 
JoeyInCali said:
It still boggles me Pred would spend all that kind of money on marketing and promotion and skimp on R&D and consultation.
They should have flown an experienced master mech to China in designing that table .
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Good luck with that suggestion, as I'm the only table mechanic I know of that has designed and built pool tables from scratch. Know of or ever heard of anyone else?
 
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