Members Only Section on AzBilliards
- Thread starter JAM
- Start date
JoeW said:
JoeW......have always found your posts to be generally calm, measured and relevant and the post from which the above was extracted was no different. I find one aspect of it very interesting, irrespective of whether or not any discussion of a members only forum was taking place.
Does the professional you specifically referred to above fear he would be torn apart because of "who he is" and/or some kind of existing dislike (real or perceived) of him outside internet forums or because he thinks that he holds some particularily unorthodox views which when expressed in writing would be badly received by the AZB community? Or is there some other reason that I can't think of? Do you yourself share his view that "he would be torn apart" in existing forums and if so, why?
The answers to these questions might automatically lead me to the answer to the next one, but just in case they don't can you please elaborate upon what makes you think that there are many other professionals who feel they would be "torn apart" if they posted in existing forums?
Sorry for a ream of questions
but can you or anyone else elaborate on just what it is about a members only forum that would lead a professional who feels he would be "torn apart" in an existing general forum to think that the possibility of being torn apart would not exist in a members only forum? I can think of several very likely acceptable candidates for any members only forum who would have no hesitation whatsoever in tearing apart views which they perceived to merit tearing apart, irrespective of whether or not it was one of the apparently more sensitive professionals who had expressed them. Some would go about the tearing apart more politely and articulately than others but tearing apart for sure would not disappear. Like you I presently have no firm views on a fee paid members only forum or whether it would/could work but do find some of the thought patterns behind such an idea interesting and worth talking about calmly and rationally.
My response to whether this is a good idea is going to be determined by what the true purpose is. Is this a thing where we are truely attempting to get more people who don't post to post? Is this something we are trying to get less argumentative posts? Are we trying to get the owner some more money because the site is becoming cost prohibitive or more trouble than it's worth? Or is it just we want to have a section that we want to be able to exclude certain members of the site that we don't like?
Actually, let me address the cost prohibitive/more trouble than it's worth answer. If this is the case, I think that it would not be a big deal to offer an incentive program with all the things mentioned to any members who wanted to contribute a few dollars a year/month. However, I think the paying members only forum is a horrible idea. If anyone thinks that the quality of discussion in the free forums would not be lessened at least in some small part by this they are either living in a dream world, or they like the idea of being seperated from the pack and just don't want to admit it. You will know in your heart which case is the one for you, and I don't, so I will leave that up for you to figure out.
As for the rest of the possible answers, if any of those reasons are the case, then I would have to disagree with the idea. It isn't going to get people who aren't posting to start posting because a small nominal fee isn't going to cut out all of the argumentative posts. Why would paying $5/month suddenly cut out all of this? argumentative people have jobs just like the rest of us, and honestly they may very well have high paying jobs as they are used to being in charge and having everyone embrace their ideas.
If the powers that be decide to have an exclusive membership forum on this site, whether it be by payment or by invitation or both, i believe for the most part that I have conducted myself, and in most cases led by example well enough to be included. However, I would shut my account down and leave because I believe it to be wrong. I love the game of pool, and there isn't much I wouldn't do to help the game if I am able, but I will also do what I can to shut down something that I think is in any way detrimental. I will pull my membership, because while it's only one membership, it is something that people who pay to advertise look at. That is the only way to voice my opposition. I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it go this way.
So in closing (and this is a long post, I apologize for everyone who has read this entire dribbling post), if we are paying to help the owner of the site, with no exclusivity (i.e. a members only forum), I'm in. If we are paying to seperate ourselves from the rest of those on the board, I will pack up my toys and go to some other site. I will also require the board to remove my name from the membership ranks so that advertisers will get a true number of members frequenting the forum.
Actually, let me address the cost prohibitive/more trouble than it's worth answer. If this is the case, I think that it would not be a big deal to offer an incentive program with all the things mentioned to any members who wanted to contribute a few dollars a year/month. However, I think the paying members only forum is a horrible idea. If anyone thinks that the quality of discussion in the free forums would not be lessened at least in some small part by this they are either living in a dream world, or they like the idea of being seperated from the pack and just don't want to admit it. You will know in your heart which case is the one for you, and I don't, so I will leave that up for you to figure out.
As for the rest of the possible answers, if any of those reasons are the case, then I would have to disagree with the idea. It isn't going to get people who aren't posting to start posting because a small nominal fee isn't going to cut out all of the argumentative posts. Why would paying $5/month suddenly cut out all of this? argumentative people have jobs just like the rest of us, and honestly they may very well have high paying jobs as they are used to being in charge and having everyone embrace their ideas.
If the powers that be decide to have an exclusive membership forum on this site, whether it be by payment or by invitation or both, i believe for the most part that I have conducted myself, and in most cases led by example well enough to be included. However, I would shut my account down and leave because I believe it to be wrong. I love the game of pool, and there isn't much I wouldn't do to help the game if I am able, but I will also do what I can to shut down something that I think is in any way detrimental. I will pull my membership, because while it's only one membership, it is something that people who pay to advertise look at. That is the only way to voice my opposition. I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it go this way.
So in closing (and this is a long post, I apologize for everyone who has read this entire dribbling post), if we are paying to help the owner of the site, with no exclusivity (i.e. a members only forum), I'm in. If we are paying to seperate ourselves from the rest of those on the board, I will pack up my toys and go to some other site. I will also require the board to remove my name from the membership ranks so that advertisers will get a true number of members frequenting the forum.
Jack Kompan
Jack Kompan, Mystick Cues
paid to belong forums?
About as good an idea as making existing highways into toll roads. No thanks.
About as good an idea as making existing highways into toll roads. No thanks.
Secaucus Fats said:
Agreed. And to any who think that a paid forum area would be a kinder and gentler place, you're just fooling yourself. If you put the fee too high, nobody will participate. If you set the fee too low, then the trolls will pay up and troll away. I'd also think there are different liabilities if you boot out paying members. And, there is no way to control all of the content, so nasty things will be said and feelings will be hurt, a $5 or $10 fee certainly won't change that, and neither will wishful thinking.
I also find it rather interesting that the poll that JAM started (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=72304) had 66.67% of responders saying they would never pay a fee, while less than 20% said they would.
Dave
PS to Ed, I think ya hit the nail on the head ol' buddy, a monkey-free zone is the nirvana some dream of
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If you pay or not , it doesnt matter all that much...
Look at the "arguments" here.. always the same folks... most times the same subjects....these people would be the ones paying..,,
For that matter... look at it like this.
Az is domniated by a few select members.....just guessing here but I'd say there are about 100-125 regluar contributing members..... most post come from about half of that even.. then you figure taking out the "dealers" who only post sales and purchases.. then take away the NPR guys who NEVER go anywhere else and the number gets even smaller....
If you set up a pay feature ... these people will (like me) be the ones paying..... so the reality is that you would be paying for what you already have .... and you have it now for FREE.
Bad idea.... good intentions... but bad idea
Look at the "arguments" here.. always the same folks... most times the same subjects....these people would be the ones paying..,,
For that matter... look at it like this.
Az is domniated by a few select members.....just guessing here but I'd say there are about 100-125 regluar contributing members..... most post come from about half of that even.. then you figure taking out the "dealers" who only post sales and purchases.. then take away the NPR guys who NEVER go anywhere else and the number gets even smaller....
If you set up a pay feature ... these people will (like me) be the ones paying..... so the reality is that you would be paying for what you already have .... and you have it now for FREE.
Bad idea.... good intentions... but bad idea
JoeW said:
Hmm...I know why I don't hang out with those kinds of people. I don't tolerate fascism, racism, domestic abuse, or drugs. Your definition of elitism appears to be skewed.
I'm sorry that young people are not worthy of your time. I'm sorry that most of the current AZB members are lower than you. Obviously, you exist at a level higher than me. Apparently you are too good for the rest of us.
Why do you think that a rich man's section will encourage the non-posters to post? They don't post right now when it's free. Now you're going to charge them to not post. Ridiculous.
Get off your soap box. You are no better than I. Maybe you should start your own forum. Call it "Pompous *****s."
JAM said:Here are few ideas to ponder as other benefits for the paid membership to AzBilliards.
10 percent off on all items advertised on AzBilliards.
Once a month, a contest can be held for the paid members for a pool-related item. It could be an AzBilliards shirt, a Hustlin USA Clothing baseball cap, an Accu-Stats DVD, an autographed cueball, whatever the webmaster thinks would be doable.
At least 50 vChips deposited per month. I'm getting sick of looking at that big fat goose egg underneath my name.
An end-of-the-year prize, to be determined, but a really cool one.
I also thought that a prospective benefit, valuable to most veteran posters, could be the PMs. There exists free PMs now, but paid members could have maybe expanded PM privileges, or in the alternative, maybe the paid members should have the PM privileges only. This is suggestion which I know may not be received positively by some, but remember, it's only a hypothetical suggestion.
Any thoughts?
JAM
Here's my very original suggestion:
KEEP IT FREE!!
Flex
JoeW said:
As I said before, if EVERYONE has to pay, that's one thing. Either everyone should have to pay, or nobody should have to pay... just like the country club. Dividing the forum into two parts (pay or no pay) creates the problem.
JoeW said:
That is incorrect. It has been mentioned a few times in this thread. Please review.
Secaucus Fats
Banned
I also do not really like the idea of a special section of any forum that is only for those invited join. Unless it is for people with below average intelligence, who can not comprehend topics presented at a 9th grade or higher level, and I have encountered few on this forum. However, at the same time I personally would not mind paying a fee to be a member of the forum, if it would help keep the forum operating at peek performance. Equality has always been a problem through the history of the Human race, I do not believe in elitism in any way shape or form.
That said, I do understand money buys privileges, and if that is the intent and money is not an option start a private forum. If certain people feel that their gifts are better shared with others of like mind, that is an easy answer, Oh I forgot, we are talking about Pool players
enough said!!
Have a great night
and I have encountered few on this forum. However, at the same time I personally would not mind paying a fee to be a member of the forum, if it would help keep the forum operating at peek performance. Equality has always been a problem through the history of the Human race, I do not believe in elitism in any way shape or form. That said, I do understand money buys privileges, and if that is the intent and money is not an option start a private forum. If certain people feel that their gifts are better shared with others of like mind, that is an easy answer, Oh I forgot, we are talking about Pool players
enough said!!Have a great night
DaveK said:
I believe that poll asked "Would you pay a monthly fee to participate on AzBilliards Discussion Forum" as if everyone who used the forum would have to pay.
If I understood this thread's original post and subsequent updated versions correctly, the idea this time was to create a paid, private meeting place for some and allow everyone else to stay in the free forum area.
This is what created the comments about snobs, elitists, etc.. There is a big difference in everyone paying for use of the whole area or a select group paying for a private meeting area.
Oh my god, a post by Doug with a POINT to it. Wonders never cease.Smorgass Bored said:I guess that I just don't get it either (even though Randy offered to PAY FOR ME)...
If someone had a cue for sale or a Tournament announcement or anything else worth reading, they would post it in the Free forums, where it would be seen by the most readers. Memebers Only would have to come to the Free forums to read what's going on. What's the advantage/difference of a Member's ONLY section ?
We already have a 'Pros' section, so Pro's wouldn't need to go to the M.O. section. We already have a Chat Room. We have seperate Forums for damned near everything.
If it's just paying money for benefits, why not just send in money if you like, in order to receive the benefits for Paid members ? Why a seperate Forum for the paying M.O. ?
Doug
( whatever is decided, I'm IN.... it's not that I'm 'against it', so much as I just don't get it.....)
Someone needs to splain it to me like I'm a dumb little baby....... imo
JAM said:I'm throwing it out there as a hypothetical, even though the AzBillardsHousePro -- the webmaster, in other words
Do you think a Members Only Section would get much play? If there were a paid membership to AzBilliards which provided a Members Only Section and other benefits to be determined, while the rest of the forum remained free of charge, do you think a Members Only Section would be a hit or a flop?
What are the possibilities and benefits to a Members Only Section? It could be designated as a place for some posters who do not feel comfortable posting on the very populated "free" public forum. I am just interested to hear from others about this concept. Any ideas?
Suggestions welcome from any and all respondents. Lurkers and first-time posters are invited, too!
JAM
This thread has had many responses to the above-referenced, over 1,700 hits this morning by interested parties. Some posters initially did not understand the "concept" of the hypothetical Members Only Section I mentioned. The thread then took some twists and turns and went from opinions, both good and bad, to a different direction which seemed to be aimed at me personally, IMHO.
Some opinions are that the private forum for paid members would be a gossip hall.
Others think it would set up a class system which would be discriminatory in nature.
A few folks thought that membership should be based on participation in the FREE and/or public forum as it exists today.
Then there is my opinion, which was shared by a few, that a members-only section might be a good place for benefits (to be determined), guest speakers for live chat sessions, and a several other good suggestions mentioned by some.
It is not my decision to make about having a paid section on this forum. I only posited the idea and invited respondents to share their thoughts about the possibilities.
Thanks to all those who contributed.
JAM
Memikey wrote, "Does the professional you specifically referred to above fear he would be torn apart because of "who he is" and/or some kind of existing dislike (real or perceived) of him outside internet forums or because he thinks that he holds some particularily unorthodox views which when expressed in writing would be badly received by the AZB community? Or is there some other reason that I can't think of? Do you yourself share his view that "he would be torn apart" in existing forums and if so, why?"
The professional person I referred to seems like a very nice person to me. Their concern was that they have posted before with good intent and found that they were harshly treated because of who they are. Their intent was to be helpful. What they got was sarcasm and demeaning comments. Apparently, they like AZB, read here often, but prefer not to comment any longer as their style is not to return caustic comments in kind.
Some people take insults by retreating from hostility. In some circles many of the comments here would be considered rude and it is just not worth the effort to interact with rude people. What we have left are those who are willing to engage in verbal hostilities disguised as witty comments. In addition to the pro pool player mentioned above, I also know of several others who do not participate in forums because of the often rude forum style. What we have left are those who are either thick skinned or rude.
In this sense there is a kind of elitism: If you are not strong enough to take the rough and tumble world of the forums then stay out. Because the forums are "free" these people dominate with their own form of elitism that controls the forum.
For those who took offense about my comments about young people, please understand I am a father of five, grandfather of 8, and a teacher. Obviously I like young people, I just find that we have little in common when it comes to socializing. With my smoking, 1960s music and a decided lack of understanding for hip hop and similar cultural styles I am a "has been." Most of the kids do not care to hang out with me either as my grandchildren who used to love our woods now find the opposite sex much more interesting than grandparents -- and this is as it should be.
The list of criminals I posted most often serve time, pay their dues and try to re-enter society. Most of us do not let them back in. -- does that make us elitists? As one of the few people who finds much to like among these people whom I worked with for many years I am far from being an elitist. Quite the contrary and the point is not understood that some polite souls, who may have a great deal of expertise, are excluded by those with a different style. I like the person not their age, education, money, or lack of any of these things. I do think there should be room for everyone and that includes those who are somewhat timid in the rough and tumble world of forums.
Gregg, the forums are a type of selective clique -- see above. Your ideas about self monitoring, as indicated by the contents on this board, and the ideas of others must be in conflict because there are many who are not here who could be here.
The professional person I referred to seems like a very nice person to me. Their concern was that they have posted before with good intent and found that they were harshly treated because of who they are. Their intent was to be helpful. What they got was sarcasm and demeaning comments. Apparently, they like AZB, read here often, but prefer not to comment any longer as their style is not to return caustic comments in kind.
Some people take insults by retreating from hostility. In some circles many of the comments here would be considered rude and it is just not worth the effort to interact with rude people. What we have left are those who are willing to engage in verbal hostilities disguised as witty comments. In addition to the pro pool player mentioned above, I also know of several others who do not participate in forums because of the often rude forum style. What we have left are those who are either thick skinned or rude.
In this sense there is a kind of elitism: If you are not strong enough to take the rough and tumble world of the forums then stay out. Because the forums are "free" these people dominate with their own form of elitism that controls the forum.
For those who took offense about my comments about young people, please understand I am a father of five, grandfather of 8, and a teacher. Obviously I like young people, I just find that we have little in common when it comes to socializing. With my smoking, 1960s music and a decided lack of understanding for hip hop and similar cultural styles I am a "has been." Most of the kids do not care to hang out with me either as my grandchildren who used to love our woods now find the opposite sex much more interesting than grandparents -- and this is as it should be.
The list of criminals I posted most often serve time, pay their dues and try to re-enter society. Most of us do not let them back in. -- does that make us elitists? As one of the few people who finds much to like among these people whom I worked with for many years I am far from being an elitist. Quite the contrary and the point is not understood that some polite souls, who may have a great deal of expertise, are excluded by those with a different style. I like the person not their age, education, money, or lack of any of these things. I do think there should be room for everyone and that includes those who are somewhat timid in the rough and tumble world of forums.
Gregg, the forums are a type of selective clique -- see above. Your ideas about self monitoring, as indicated by the contents on this board, and the ideas of others must be in conflict because there are many who are not here who could be here.
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vagabond said:More than 7-8 months ago I suggested a small Annual fee for using the forum.somebody got upset at my suggestion and gave me negative Rep points.
When I suggested the annual fee my intention was to remunerate the services provided by Mr.Howerton.I did not have any intention of creating Exclusive class.I am not in favor of creating chism on this board.In my book every living creature is valuable and every poster including travis trotter is valuable.
I missed your original suggestion, several months back (or else I forgot it.. I do tend to do that some these days
) and I like it, and I also missed this quoted post... so thanks for referring me back to it. John Barton, in this thread, suggested the same sort of thing, and several others also did.
I like the idea of being able to donate and have special offerings as the perks of making that donation.
I do NOT like the idea of having posters in a seperate room, from which others would be excluded, and where their input cannot be an influence on others.
Maybe "exclusive" is the worst word in the language. There are lots to choose from so I'd want to study it some to make a definitive statement but if exclusive ain't the worst word it's in the running.
BTW we already have something like a members only section where the discussions are limited to pool topics not scarasm. I am sure that you can find them if you look around -- where does Williebetmore and like minded people hang out?
In reflection I have come to the conclusion that these are the best solutions.
In reflection I have come to the conclusion that these are the best solutions.
vagabond said:The idea though seems to be innocent it has unintended consequences-division, descrimination,intolerance to dissention.
British legacy of `divide and conquer/Rule` is widely imitated by British Commonwealth countries and USA.
That is right,divide and conquer is the name of the game in town