Men's 2025 World 8-Ball Championship, Bali, Oct.7-13

[pt109]

Exactly. 8ball on the bar box has some strategic play, but on the big tables, 8ball is a run-fest in which the first player to make a ball nearly always wins the rack.

There is no game that requires LESS strategy that big table 8ball. It is, quite simply, a breaking contest.

Playing "take what you make" and playing on 4" pockets might make it more interesting, but the World 8ball has aways been played with "choice after the break" and generous pockets.

I know a few good players playing 7 ahead 8-ball on a bar box….agree to move to a nine foot….they just kept running out on each other on the 7- foot.
And ‘take what you make’ was a deal breaker for me…it’s a game of skill….what’s next?….flip to see who shoots the next shot?
….room probably has a poker machine for that thinking.

 

[AtLarge]

... Out of curiosity, do you have a breakdown of the stats for later in the event (like are the stats for the quarters/semis/finals similar or significantly higher as the top players surface)?

Yes, I could go back and do that. But the number of matches streamed on the main table (or two) from the quarterfinals and later is, of course, small. For each of the last 2 years, for example, my stats each year included 2 of the 4 quarterfinal matches, both semifinal matches, and the finals -- just 5 matches. Stats for small numbers of games can sometimes be fairly unrepresentative of the norm for such measures. And most of the matches included in my stats for the big events are with top-notch players (as selected by the streamers, not by me).

But if you'd like to see any particular stat (as opposed to all of the ones I do) for those 5 matches each year, let me know. Here are the stats threads for those two World 8-Ball events:

2024: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...ld-8-ball-championship-september-2024.568232/​

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2023: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...orld-8-ball-championship-october-2023.558204/​

 

[sjm]

A bit of exaggeration there. From the streamed matches I watched in last year's World 8-Ball:

• The player who made the first ball after the break:​

- Won the game in that same inning 69% of the time (140 of 204)​

- Won the game in a later inning 7% of the time (15 of 204)​

- Lost the game 24% of the time (49 of 204)​

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And in 2023:

​

• The player who made the first ball after the break:​

- Won the game in that same inning 73% of the time (186 of 254)​

- Won the game in a later inning 5% of the time (12 of 254)​

- Lost the game 22% of the time (56 of 254)​

I'd say these stats validate my claim. Over two years, the player who made the first ball won 353 racks out of 458 for a success rate of 77%, which is about seven out of every nine racks, quite a bit higher than one would expect in any other game played on a pool table.

For the most elite players, the success rate would be even higher than that. 8ball on the big tables is, indeed, a breaking contest, making it the least watchable game there is in our sport.

 

[markjames]

For the most elite players, the success rate would be even higher than that. 8ball on the big tables is, indeed, a breaking contest, making it the least watchable game there is in our sport.

but you have travelled the world to sit in the front row and watch the best players in the biggest matches for the last 40 years

amen to that and good for you

and your presence and appreciation and devotion and writing on the sport are an eloquent and invaluable asset that will always remain in the books of pool history and lore

but to the casual fan who plays mostly eight ball, not only is it watchable it is the most watchable

 

[sjm]

but you have travelled the world to sit in the front row and watch the best players in the biggest matches for the last 40 years

amen to that and good for you

and your presence and appreciation and devotion and writing on the sport are an eloquent and invaluable asset that will always remain in the books of pool history and lore

but to the casual fan who plays mostly eight ball, not only is it watchable it is the most watchable

Thanks for those very kind words.

I agree with what you say, but there have been two distinct attempts to make 8ball the primary pro game in America. The first, and most obvious. is the IPT of 2006, which collapsed under its own financial weight in its first year. The second was Darren Appleton's World Pool Series, circa 2016, which also didn't catch on and it eventually abandoned 8ball before ultimately folding.

Hence, while your intuition and mine seem to suggest that the pool viewing public prefers 8ball, there is little corroborating evidence that it is what they prefer to watch.

 

[skogstokig]

I'd say these stats validate my claim. Over two years, the player who made the first ball won 353 racks out of 458 for a success rate of 77%, which is about seven out of every nine racks, quite a bit higher than one would expect in any other game played on a pool table.

For the most elite players, the success rate would be even higher than that. 8ball on the big tables is, indeed, a breaking contest, making it the least watchable game there is in our sport.

both of those events were racked with predator's triangle rack and always have slug racks, so run out from first ball is indeed a better measure

on a more positive note it's cool that a big time event is in a new territory, indonesia

 

[Monti]

tyler played better than all the others last year..

Agreed. Can’t remember the tournament but he played superb to beat Josh , he just always seems to not be able to get it over the line

 

[sudocrushms]

Big deal. Watching top pros play 8b is pretty dull. Its too easy for them. I hear all this bs about how strategic and 'move filled' 8b is. Wrong. Go watch top pros play it, its a joke,

It is a fun joke to watch (at least for me). They make it look hilariously easy.

I don't thinks pigs are going to fly. So yeah, SVB will be on Team Mosconi (-:

The real question is, who besides SVB and Gorst? Sky, Oscar or Billie would have to get very far in Peri/Hanoi to pass Styer.

Styer has been better at Mosconi anyway. But yeah, the US and Europe/Asia have the same problem for different reasons: Europe/Asia: "Damn we've got so many world-class players, who do we pick?" US: "Shit, well we've got Fedor, Shane, and Sky...now what?" (In Billy's defense, he did a lot better than i expected.)

 

[BasementDweller]

The problem with 8 ball on any table is -- you're really not competing against an opponent. It's like a 2 player version of the ghost. You break and if you make a ball, you try to run out. If you fail the runout, your opponent (ghost) wins. 9 ball has way more back and forth play. You screw up your out, and you can still compete with your opponent with a safety exchange. Now I know this is a bit of an exaggeration as there are sometimes safety battles mixed in, but it's not hard for anyone over 600 FR to play an entire set without a single safety. Pros??? Forget safety play.

 

[AtLarge]

I'd say these stats validate my claim. ...

I disagree. Your claim was that "on the big tables, 8ball is a run-fest in which the first player to make a ball nearly always wins the rack." To me, 77% is not "nearly always." Also, 6 points of that 77% was not run outs after the first ball was made. A host of different situations led to that player winning the game later after giving up the table -- some running most of the balls (probably frequent), some nothing but the 8-ball (fairly rare), and a passel of things in between that are not "run-fests."

Incidentally, you might be surprised that what you called the "success rate" -- the player who makes the first ball after the break wins the game -- is about the same in pro 9-Ball as in pro 8-Ball. For the last two World 9-Ball events, the number from my stats comparable to the 77% in 8-Ball is 74 1/2% in 9-Ball. For the recent US Open 9-Ball, it was 78%. For the recent Florida Open it was 76%. I think a better measure to make your point about 8-Ball is runouts by the player at the table after the break. But let's look at a comparison of the two disciplines using a larger number of measures. I think you'll find some support there.

The following stats are for the streamed matches I tracked for the 2025 and 2024 World 9-Ball events, combined, vs. the 2024 and 2023 World 8-Ball events, combined, -- i.e., the two most recent world championships in each of those disciplines. This was a total of 557 games of 9-Ball and 458 games of 8-Ball. The conditions weren't the same for all 4 events, nor (of course) were the players the same. But the comparison is useful in judging today's results produced by top pro players in these two disciplines.

The stats are for 9-Ball first, then 8-Ball

• Successful breaks -- 72%, 51%​

• Breaker won game -- 57%, 55%​

• B&R games on all breaks -- 21%, 37%​

• B&R games on successful breaks -- 29%, 73%​

• Games ending in 1 inning -- 38%, 76%​

• Games ending in the 2nd inning -- 25%, 17%​

• Games going beyond the 2nd inning -- 36%, 7%​

• Runouts by the player at the table following the break -- 30%, 67%​

• First player to make a ball after the break won the game in that same inning -- 55%, 71%​

• First player to make a ball after the break won the game in a later inning -- 20%, 6%​

• First player to make a ball after the break won the game (any inning) -- 74%, 77%​

• Games per missed shot (approx.) -- 1.7, 2.6​

• Games per foul -- 3.4, 8.5​

• Games with one or more safeties -- 50%, 9%​

• Games (excl. B&Rs) with one or more safeties -- 63%, 15%​

 

[sjm]

I disagree. Your claim was that "on the big tables, 8ball is a run-fest in which the first player to make a ball nearly always wins the rack." To me, 77% is not "nearly always." Also, 6 points of that 77% was not run outs after the first ball was made. A host of different situations led to that player winning the game later after giving up the table -- some running most of the balls (probably frequent), some nothing but the 8-ball (fairly rare), and a passel of things in between that are not "run-fests."

Incidentally, you might be surprised that what you called the "success rate" -- the player who makes the first ball after the break wins the game -- is about the same in pro 9-Ball as in pro 8-Ball. For the last two World 9-Ball events, the number from my stats comparable to the 77% in 8-Ball is 74 1/2% in 9-Ball. For the recent US Open 9-Ball, it was 78%. For the recent Florida Open it was 76%. I think a better measure to make your point about 8-Ball is runouts by the player at the table after the break. But let's look at a comparison of the two disciplines using a larger number of measures. I think you'll find some support there.

The following stats are for the streamed matches I tracked for the 2025 and 2024 World 9-Ball events, combined, vs. the 2024 and 2023 World 8-Ball events, combined, -- i.e., the two most recent world championships in each of those disciplines. This was a total of 557 games of 9-Ball and 458 games of 8-Ball. The conditions weren't the same for all 4 events, nor (of course) were the players the same. But the comparison is useful in judging today's results produced by top pro players in these two disciplines.

The stats are for 9-Ball first, then 8-Ball

• Successful breaks -- 72%, 51%​

• Breaker won game -- 57%, 55%​

• B&R games on all breaks -- 21%, 37%​

• B&R games on successful breaks -- 29%, 73%​

• Games ending in 1 inning -- 38%, 76%​

• Games ending in the 2nd inning -- 25%, 17%​

• Games going beyond the 2nd inning -- 36%, 7%​

• Runouts by the player at the table following the break -- 30%, 67%​

• First player to make a ball after the break won the game in that same inning -- 55%, 71%​

• First player to make a ball after the break won the game in a later inning -- 20%, 6%​

• First player to make a ball after the break won the game (any inning) -- 74%, 77%​

• Games per missed shot (approx.) -- 1.7, 2.6​

• Games per foul -- 3.4, 8.5​

• Games with one or more safeties -- 50%, 9%​

• Games (excl. B&Rs) with one or more safeties -- 63%, 15%​

Good stuff. Thanks for these stats, from which I learned a lot. I'm sure that, as is the case most years, I'll give the World 8ball a shot and watch a few matches.

 

[trob]

It is a fun joke to watch (at least for me). They make it look hilariously easy.


Styer has been better at Mosconi anyway. But yeah, the US and Europe/Asia have the same problem for different reasons: Europe/Asia: "Damn we've got so many world-class players, who do we pick?" US: "Shit, well we've got Fedor, Shane, and Sky...now what?" (In Billy's defense, he did a lot better than i expected.)

I agree with you except the sky part. He’s yet to win a major tournament. I love the guy but he is in the mix with the rest of The Who should we picks.