Mika/Williams SBE

justnum said:
If your not willing to take their job, they why bother complaining on how they do it. Be part of the solution or get out of the way.
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Maybe you should listen to your own advice

It's pretty obvious that chopping is not the solution.

The real solution is money for the talent/players,so they can make a living.
You have to have a product to promote and it better look good smell good.
Our product is PLAYERS and they do Not,look good,smell good and they leave a bad taste in your mouth more often than not.

Fact is you never see such behavior in the likes of the; PGA,APT(tennis),PBT....ETC
 
You will never see big sponsor prize money,like the pro tennis or golf!
The actions of OUR so called Male Professionals through out the years has kept this great sport from achieving such goals.

No big sponsors like Rolex,Bulova,Omega,etc,etc,are willing to pay to see player's show up drunk or hi,or barking out for finalists to come gamble instead of finishing the tour.And just carrying on like amateurs.These are just a few of the things OUR professionals do.
 
theeviltwin69 said:
You will never see big sponsor prize money,like the pro tennis or golf!
The actions of OUR so called Male Professionals through out the years has kept this great sport from achieving such goals.

No big sponsors like Rolex,Bulova,Omega,etc,etc,are willing to pay to see player's show up drunk or hi,or barking out for finalists to come gamble instead of finishing the tour.And just carrying on like amateurs.These are just a few of the things OUR professionals do.
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Sad but true

mainstream sports would sanction any players that pulled the stuff you mentioned

The state of commercial pool is basically a reflection of past and current bad behavior by the players.
 
rdplyr said:
There is so much greed in pool that it doesn't allow the opportunity to get to the next level.

It is a damn shame because it truly is a beautiful game...
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I think they call this penny wise and pound foolish. I agree with you that it seems like many in the pool world seem to look to get the quick buck and by doing so they are not seeing that there is so much more money to be made if they would just clean up their act.

Golf pros don't have contracts other than with their sponsors I believe. They make so much more money than the pros in pool that it's not even comparable. Why is that? I've tried to watch golf and just can't get into it. If you're a spectator at a live event of golf, you can't even see the whole game so what is the reason that it pays so much more and has so much more popularity? Pool is a beautiful game and can be seen in the comfort of an indoor environment.

Snooker in Great Britain is far more successful there than here. Why is that? Perhaps their code of conduct helps them? Something to think about.
 
state of pool

Golf and tennis are marketed to the rich as treated as a measure of status. The other thread about the girl with the bigguns talks about the fact that sex sells. Well guess what status sells even more. Pool is associated with the underbelly of society, indisputable. One pro does anything shady and that just reminds any outsider of the same. What pool needs is to be marketed to the mainstream, like APA does. They just sell it as a good time, in a bar environment with a bunch of 8 and up women hanging around. Too bad when you get there it is either a sausage fest or a bunch of fugly broads about.

Harrahs, Diamond, Accustats and others are going together to make several Derby City style events in theis country. The casiino cannot lose on these type of events. The next is in Tunica MS in the summer. They will fill the hotel with players, many who gamble and all that eat. If they put up $25-50k or just donate the event space they will still turn profits.

There needs to be a ranking system and handicaps for advanced amateurs who are willing to play top pros in a $500 entry event. If there were a chance for an advanced amateur to do well in an event, then getting 100 more $500 entries would be easy. Poker has no problem getting several hundred $10,000 entries, because they all have a chance of winning. Why cant pool be the same. Then you have a product to sell and then you can get real sponsors to put up some real money.
 
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First let me remind everyone that the Fury 14.1 Challenge was not an officially sanction event by either Allen Hopkins or the APB. From the expo point of view, that explains why there was no time designation for a finals to be played so that it didn't overlap and interfere with any other pro event finals, and why it isn't mentioned along with all the other tournaments in the website and program guide. It has been run entirely off of fan donations, with fans donating as much as $1000, and sponsorship, with volunteers providing the energy and sweat to pull it off. The money raised from both sponsorship and donations covers the expenses of the event, and whatever is left goes to the prize fund, along with the entry fees from the participants.

The event has attracted more participants, players, and exposure each year it has taken place. I have hoped that it would grow to the point where the promoters could approach Allen Hopkins about having it become an "official" event at the SBE just as the Artistic, Carom, and Players Championships are. That could only work once it was shown to be a true "event" drawing plenty of attention in the form or participants and spectators. That would help alleviate some of the issues with timing.

Yes, Fury is reassessing the role they play by putting their name on the event, however that is not to say that they are pulling their sponsorship. This debacle has obviously demonstrated that there are changes and improvements that need to be made. In defense of Charles Eames and Steve Kurtz, the event promoters, they are doing this not for money, but for the love of 14.1 and to help raise awareness of the game as a discipline of pocket billiards. They are not professional promoters, and unfortunately I think the situation being discussed was part of the learning curve for them. I think they learned a lot from this years event, as it was bigger than the previous years and they had to adapt on the fly to a number of circumstances. All that being said, they have done a great job of pulling this off since it's inception. However, like any other "live" event, it will not ever be without its hiccups along the way.

The sad truth of the matter though, is that due to the outcome of the event this year, it IS going to be harder for them to pull in fan donations and more sponsorship dollars. Almost all of those who invested their time, energy, and money are upset at how things turned out.

I think it would have benefited both players, and the event promoters, to consider what the effects not having a streamed finals match would have on their future endeavors. For Mika and CW, this didn't mean a thing other than a few extra dollars in their pocket. For the event promoters, it means a lot of headache they did not anticipate and possible having to work even harder to solicit the funds necessary for next years event. For the fans and sponsors, it shows a complete lack of respect for the money they invested to see world class championship 14.1. In addition, as someone pointed out earlier, the sponsors were robbed of exposure that they "paid" to receive.

Not a single pro player is "entitled" to any payout. They only get to do what they love when fans support their efforts. Their actions this year pose to damage the reputation of the event, its sponsors, promoters, and the players themselves. All parties involved might have considered this before acquiescing to the "no win" situation that has been described.

The Fury 14.1 Challenge has offered a very unique opportunity at the expo. Not only is admission to watch free, but no other event at the expo allows amateurs and pros to intermingle so effortlessly and with little or no cost. This is worthy of preservation, as it is the amateur players that make a difference. It is them, not pro players, gamblers, hustlers, or road players, that will spend money buying sponsor's products and paying admission prices to see pro events, thereby fueling the billiards economy for those not selling home tables and equipment. Keeping these folks engaged and happy should be the primary goal of any event. This years challenge fell short of that goal, but hopefully the promoters can again adapt to make sure that all those who invest their time, money, and energy will not suffer a similar situation in the future.
 
carter1984 said:
First let me remind everyone that the Fury 14.1 Challenge was not an officially sanction event by either Allen Hopkins or the APB. From the expo point of view, that explains why there was no time designation for a finals to be played so that it didn't overlap and interfere with any other pro event finals, and why it isn't mentioned along with all the other tournaments in the website and program guide. It has been run entirely off of fan donations, with fans donating as much as $1000, and sponsorship, with volunteers providing the energy and sweat to pull it off. The money raised from both sponsorship and donations covers the expenses of the event, and whatever is left goes to the prize fund, along with the entry fees from the participants.

The event has attracted more participants, players, and exposure each year it has taken place. I have hoped that it would grow to the point where the promoters could approach Allen Hopkins about having it become an "official" event at the SBE just as the Artistic, Carom, and Players Championships are. That could only work once it was shown to be a true "event" drawing plenty of attention in the form or participants and spectators. That would help alleviate some of the issues with timing.

Yes, Fury is reassessing the role they play by putting their name on the event, however that is not to say that they are pulling their sponsorship. This debacle has obviously demonstrated that there are changes and improvements that need to be made. In defense of Charles Eames and Steve Kurtz, the event promoters, they are doing this not for money, but for the love of 14.1 and to help raise awareness of the game as a discipline of pocket billiards. They are not professional promoters, and unfortunately I think the situation being discussed was part of the learning curve for them. I think they learned a lot from this years event, as it was bigger than the previous years and they had to adapt on the fly to a number of circumstances. All that being said, they have done a great job of pulling this off since it's inception. However, like any other "live" event, it will not ever be without its hiccups along the way.

The sad truth of the matter though, is that due to the outcome of the event this year, it IS going to be harder for them to pull in fan donations and more sponsorship dollars. Almost all of those who invested their time, energy, and money are upset at how things turned out.

I think it would have benefited both players, and the event promoters, to consider what the effects not having a streamed finals match would have on their future endeavors. For Mika and CW, this didn't mean a thing other than a few extra dollars in their pocket. For the event promoters, it means a lot of headache they did not anticipate and possible having to work even harder to solicit the funds necessary for next years event. For the fans and sponsors, it shows a complete lack of respect for the money they invested to see world class championship 14.1. In addition, as someone pointed out earlier, the sponsors were robbed of exposure that they "paid" to receive.

Not a single pro player is "entitled" to any payout. They only get to do what they love when fans support their efforts. Their actions this year pose to damage the reputation of the event, its sponsors, promoters, and the players themselves. All parties involved might have considered this before acquiescing to the "no win" situation that has been described.

The Fury 14.1 Challenge has offered a very unique opportunity at the expo. Not only is admission to watch free, but no other event at the expo allows amateurs and pros to intermingle so effortlessly and with little or no cost. This is worthy of preservation, as it is the amateur players that make a difference. It is them, not pro players, gamblers, hustlers, or road players, that will spend money buying sponsor's products and paying admission prices to see pro events, thereby fueling the billiards economy for those not selling home tables and equipment. Keeping these folks engaged and happy should be the primary goal of any event. This years challenge fell short of that goal, but hopefully the promoters can again adapt to make sure that all those who invest their time, money, and energy will not suffer a similar situation in the future.
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Great post :thumbup:
 
To settle a lot of heartbreak, the only outcome of any of this talk is for CW and Mika to return the prize money because of what happen. Or at least use it for promoting next years event.
 
The past can't be changed, but both finalists have a golden opportunity to help promote the 14.1 Challenge, so it doesn't end this year as a direct cause of their action.

Charlie Eames and Steve Kurtz spent years working on this, along volunteers and supporters. I hate to see it end this year and lose their existing sponsorship

justnum said:
The important detail would be if MI and CW agree with it.
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To be clear on my position.

The players are entitled to the prizes based on their rank in the event. However because of the scheduling issues, players have the burden of responsibility on them in deciding how to resolve the issue about the lack of a final event and sponsor exposure.
 
ctyhntr said:
The past can't be changed, but both finalists have a golden opportunity to help promote the 14.1 Challenge, so it doesn't end this year as a direct cause of their action.
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And don't forget that one of the two promotes the "World 14.1 Championship"... One would think he would have a vested interest in promoting 14.1, especially in high profile events such as the one he put a shadow over...
 
justnum said:
Cute post but pro pool players are not salaried workers, or hourly workers. They are gamblers. Do they have contracts? No they pay money to enter tournaments with pre-determined prize payouts for certain places.
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Actually, they do have contracts of sorts. Not all contracts are long, formal, written and signed documents. Some are are verbal, and some are implied and are there whether you are aware of them or not, based simply on law. You have many thousands of "contracts" with every single human being alive (and with many of the dead ones too actually), and with every business in existence, simply because the laws have spelled out certain obligations and duties for everyone on an astounding range of topics. An example is that if you rear end a vehicle that is stopped at a red light because you were looking down changing radio stations, I can assure you that you are responsible for the other driver's damages/injuries. Try telling the judge "but your honor, I never had any contract with the other driver" and see how far your contract argument gets you. You don't by default necessarily get your way on something or get to do whatever you want to just because you "don't have a contract".

In this particular case, as is the case in most tournaments, the promoter laid out the prize fund as being X amount for first place, Y amount for second, and Z for third, etc. Nowhere did they say "specific individual prizes will not be disclosed to any individual prior to their being eliminated from the tournament, just show up and play and once you are out, you get what you get". If they had said that, I could see the players arguing that they were the only two left, so any money left has to come to them and that if they want to split it that is their right since it was never even specified that there would even be a difference in pay between first and second.

In my opinion, one of the implied contracts here is that your placing in the tournament is determined by your play, and not by the promoters or your random choosing. The winner of a match advances one place, the loser another. You can't just decide where you want to advance without playing the match/s. Otherwise the next tournament I go to I will just tell them before it starts that I decided I want to take the first place slot this time, and to go ahead and pay me the money.

Another of the implied contracts is that by entering the tournament, the players are agreeing to play for the prize fund in whatever payout structure the promoter advertised, or in the absence of advanced advertisement, whatever he chooses to use. The promoter is paying X for first and Y for second, so how can he pay either of these prizes out when the players didn't meet their contractual obligation to play for their prizes? He doesn't know who to give what to since it was never determined in the contractual way, and at best they might both be entitled to second place funds.

I'm guessing that if the top two players refused to play the finals, and the promoter refused to pay them, that if the players took the promoter to court that the absolute BEST possible result the players could hope for is that they would each be entitled to an amount equal to the second place funds (they effectively both quit the tournament in second place). At worst it might be possible (although probably pretty unlikely in most cases) that they could get even less or perhaps even end up owing the promoter money for damages they caused to him due to injury to his professional reputation, damages he suffered when as a result of the finals not being played he failed to meet his contractual obligations to his advertisers or the venue, etc.

justnum said:
If these were athletes under contracts with contractual obligations, then I would completely agree with statement. But they are not under contract. What are the rules of tournament? Did the players follow the rules?
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Yes the players were under contractual obligation (at least if they wanted more than second place funds each), and yes they did break the rules because the rules state that first place got X, second place got Y.

It just so happens that in this case the promoters seem to be ok with the players quitting and splitting and not playing the finals, but it still causes injury to the sport, the fans, the promoter, the venue, the advertisers, etc.
 
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justnum said:
To be clear on my position.

The players are entitled to the prizes based on their rank in the event. However because of the scheduling issues, players have the burden of responsibility on them in deciding how to resolve the issue about the lack of a final event and sponsor exposure.
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Players EARN their prize based on their performance not rank or ability. In this case neither earned the 1st or 2nd place prize since they FAILED to perform by their own CHOICE.

This attitude of entitlement is the problem with most of the players and others as well. People like to use other sports such as golf or tennis. But lets get one thing clear. If this happened in a sport such as that the players would be banned from competing for some time if not permanently by the governing body. Pool has no governing body however they have a players association that's more like a group of spoiled kids.
 
justnum said:
To be clear on my position.

The players are entitled to the prizes based on their rank in the event.
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I agree with you. Neither one of them won the match to progress to the first place ranking, so when they quit, they were both still at the second place ranking. They are both entitled to second place funds (unless they breached some other contract we are unaware of, such as a requirement to finish the tournament, which would then leave them entitled to less or nothing or potentially even owing, depending on the terms of such contract).
 
stumpie71 said:
Players EARN their prize based on their performance not rank or ability. In this case neither earned the 1st or 2nd place prize since they FAILED to perform by their own CHOICE.
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I don't think I can agree with you here. They quit in second place, and they did in fact earn their way there based on their performance. Unless there were terms we don't know about, I don't think they were under any legal obligation to have to finish the tournament. They are entitled to the second place funds.

I do however understand where you are coming from and more or less agree with the spirit of your post. Maybe in the future on the sign up sheet (which all players would be required to sign) promoters can choose to include a statement such as "failure of the refusing player to determine the winner of the tournament by playing the final match/s in accordance with the tournament format will result in that player forfeiting their right to any and all prize monies earned". That should cover the promoter's butts so they don't have to pay them anything, and it would also take care of the problem of the final match not being played any more (they will never fail to play it again) which only hurts the sport, the fans, the promoter, the venue, the advertisers, etc.
 
justnum said:
The important detail would be if MI and CW agree with it.
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If I was running the tournament, it would be irrelevant whether they agree.
If they refuse to play the final...I would refuse to pay them any money.

..next year's event would have that money added....
...and the two players in question would be barred.
 
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