Mika/Williams SBE

pt109 said:
Common law will give you a case....enough that the offending parties
might not want to risk a law-suit...they aint got a lock in this spot.

I'm not familiar with any of the common law to which you refer. Can you tell me what these laws are that would allow a promoter to withhold all prizes a participant has earned if they chose to forfeit and give up their chance to advance further (without them having been told in advance that they must complete the tournament to collect of course)? Or at least cite some similar examples where participants in a tournament who withdrew early and were not paid and then they sued and lost their case? Or anything else at all that you are basing this on? Thanks.
 
If the promoters are serious, it is a simple fix.

Payoff all prize winnings with a check. NO CASH.
All matches must be paid.

The WPA tournaments send bank drafts to the players bank accounts. Plus the appropriate tax forms.

If the tournament is in a casino, issue credits that the players can cash-in or play with. Their choice. At least the fans won't know there were deals made amongst the players.

In pool halls, it is a different story altogether. Savers, splits and chops are very common and every young player experiences this on their way up the ladder to become a Pro. This is common practice. Why would a big tournament be any different? The promoters also learned their trade from dealing with the Pros.

The odd man out is the FANS. They want to see the finals played like it is LIFE or DEATH.... never happen here in the US.
 
I'm not familiar with any of the common law to which you refer. Can you tell me what these laws are that would allow a promoter to withhold all prizes a participant has earned if they chose to forfeit and give up their chance to advance further (without them having been told in advance that they must complete the tournament to collect of course)? Or at least cite some similar examples where participants in a tournament who withdrew early and were not paid and then they sued and lost their case? Or anything else at all that you are basing this on? Thanks.

I have a friend who is a lawyer...she is also a pool player.
..I'll let you know how she sees it.

I think this is an interesting idea.
In a tournament where there is added money and paid admission, I would
think a judge would recognize a legal obligation to perform.

He would have to make a ruling if it has never happened...which would
establish a common law.

I like my chances of winning or not getting sued because they might not
like THEIR chances of winning.
The money is not going into the TD's pocket, it is being redirected.

...this might take a day
regards
pt..<..who has played this card, and not been called on it
 
Your not happy with the schedules of the pros, so volunteer your services and help them with their time management issues.

All this complaining isn't changing anything.

The principle objective of this forum is *discussion*. I'm pretty sure we are accomplishing that.

KMRUNOUT
 
For those that won't click links here is the text from the golf link above.. The ABP could learn something here......

At Least 50 PGA Seniors Fined for Purse Splitting
April 15, 1994|DAN HAFNER | TIMES STAFF WRITER

PALM BEACH GARDENS, Fla. — About 50 Senior PGA Tour players, including Dave Stockton, last year's player of the year, are a little poorer today after acknowledging their involvement in splitting prize money at non-tour events last year.

Each player was fined at least $2,000 for the schemes at such events as the Merrill Lynch Shootout at Miami and a made-for-television hole-in-one competition.

In announcing the penalties, Commissioner Deane Beman would not say which events and which players were involved, or the total amount of fines levied. He did say no regular tour events were involved and indicated that fines totaled about $100,000.

Jim Dent and Bob Charles, two-time senior player of the year, joined Stockton in admitting they were involved Friday.

"The Merrill Lynch Shootout last December was one of them," Stockton said. "There was a purse of $400,000 and 10 golfers were playing. We didn't think there was a problem at the time.

"But I can't really argue with Deane. I don't intend to appeal the fine."

Isao Aoki, Jim Colbert, Bruce Crampton, Mike Hill, Miller Barber, George Archer, Larry Laoretti, Billy Casper and Charles also were in that event.

Other pre-tournament shootouts reportedly also were involved in violating the tour rule against splitting purses.

"We didn't think we were doing anything wrong," Dent said. "After all, they weren't tour events. And, it didn't affect the way anybody played. We always go out and play our best."

Larry Ziegler, admitting to nothing, said, "This wasn't like a regular tournament. It was just an exhibition to entertain the fans. Guys were talking when another was putting. And they were walking in putting lines and doing all sorts of things to distract. These things are never done during regular events.

"They won't be done either to Deane when he comes out on our tour, but that doesn't mean we'll all be glad to see him."

Lee Trevino, who was not involved, said that was simply an accident.

"I always want to be just one of the guys," he said. "If they had wanted to split up the purse in a shootout, I probably would have gone along. I would have been fined, too. I realize it is wrong, but I still probably would have done it."

In the early days of the regular tour, when purses were small and the tour was not organized, players traveling together often split purses.

According to Jack Nicklaus, that stopped about 1963 after he, Gary Player and Arnold Palmer were told they would all get the same amount in a World Series of Golf, no matter who won.

"I won it and after the event, I thought it was wrong," Nicklaus said. "So did Arnie and Gary. The next year Arnie was on the policy board and he got it changed so there was no more purse splitting."

Beman, who will be leaving the commissioner's job to play on the senior tour, refused, as is his custom, to comment on whether there were suspensions.
 
Imagine what the PGA Tour would do if 2 of there players decided to chop a Tour event

That used to happen more than you would think back in the 40s 50s and 60s.
But they still played for the trophy!

Before their 18 hole playoff for the '62 US Open, Arnie offered to chop the pot with Nicklaus - helping out a young pro with as yet little money.
Nicklaus declined.
 
Wowi feel that CW Is the biggest crook in this sport ,Mika said he want to play But Cw had to go a watch some ladies play in NJ . Wow And Screwed the people that put there money to help make this a real sport ,,
Thanks Cw you did it once agian.....
 
Wowi feel that CW Is the biggest crook in this sport ,Mika said he want to play But Cw had to go a watch some ladies play in NJ . Wow And Screwed the people that put there money to help make this a real sport ,,
Thanks Cw you did it once agian.....

Ok that is completely false both players did indeed want to play the final. Mika was in the finals of the million dollar freeze out event and didn't get until well past 8pm we wouldn't have started till about nineish at the earliest. By which point Charlie and dragon promotions had the exhibition with Borana and Shanelle Lorraine. I can't stop people from saying what they will about the situation but I'm not going to let false info fly around.

We admitted already that a final should have been played and will be next year as we already have multiple plans on the table. However misinformation likethis only makes situations worse.
 
Seems to me that the APB did a lot of complaining re pay outs etc, pretty much everything. As long as it was doing them good.

So what have they done, except complain?

Thats what we do here, complain. We can because we see whats wrong with the situation in pool. As far as being able to do anything about it, we can't.
None of us are in any position to make a difference other than voicing an opinion.

I don't agree...you can make a difference by NOT going to see them play and by not buying anything from a company who sponsors them.

It is the same as all the people in the USA who never vote and then ***** about who gets elected. If ENOUGH people expressed their displeasure with action, instead of talk, then somethings may change.
 
I have a friend who is a lawyer...she is also a pool player.
..I'll let you know how she sees it.

I think this is an interesting idea.
In a tournament where there is added money and paid admission, I would
think a judge would recognize a legal obligation to perform.

He would have to make a ruling if it has never happened...which would
establish a common law.

I like my chances of winning or not getting sued because they might not
like THEIR chances of winning.
The money is not going into the TD's pocket, it is being redirected.

...this might take a day
regards
pt..<..who has played this card, and not been called on it

Well, I checked with my friend...she has practiced law for quite a while
and has been a small claims court judge.

She tells me I'm on pretty solid ground...and wasn't totally clueless
about the 'common law' concept.

So, if I'm running an 'added money tournament with paid admission"...
...show up for the finals or go home broke.
 
Hi, are you the one I saw working with the ABP now in the news?
Rodney Morris asked me to do an analysis on various ranking systems, both industryband non indusutry and make a recommendation which I was happy to do.

More of a one off deal
 
Cute post but pro pool players are not salaried workers, or hourly workers. They are gamblers. Do they have contracts? No they pay money to enter tournaments with pre-determined prize payouts for certain places.

If these were athletes under contracts with contractual obligations, then I would completely agree with statement. But they are not under contract. What are the rules of tournament? Did the players follow the rules? In the tournament rules does it say that each player ... and that no player can ...

In the gambling world it pays to know the rules. Maybe you should take this as a lesson in gambling because whiners don't get paid.
They have an obligation: to their sponsor's, to Allen, and their profession.
 
This was my original opinion...but in all fairness.....

If one player is wiling to play....he should get first money and the title...
...the no-show should get zilch....
..and second place money can be added to next event.

OR, in this case since the promoters wanted visibility on the final stream ... have the 3rd place player move up to the final and play for the 1st/2nd prizes. Have the 3rd place prize added to the next event.
 
pt109 said:
Well, I checked with my friend...she has practiced law for quite a while
and has been a small claims court judge.

She tells me I'm on pretty solid ground...and wasn't totally clueless
about the 'common law' concept.

So, if I'm running an 'added money tournament with paid admission"...
...show up for the finals or go home broke.

Thanks for checking into this, I was curious to hear what she would say. I also asked a lawyer friend and what he said was that unless there was case law that had already addressed something like this in a sporting event, that there wasn't any law/s that directly and concretely covered this scenario. He said that it was really going to come down to the judge and their whim. One judge might award the players the splitting of the first and second place prizes, another might award them each the second place amount, and the third might award them nothing at all. He was leaning toward the second or third of those three though. Reading between the lines (she said pretty solid grounds as opposed to a slam dunk case--which basically means you have a decent chance) it sounds like your friend is saying a similar thing, that there is some uncertainty in which way it would go.
 
Ok that is completely false both players did indeed want to play the final. Mika was in the finals of the million dollar freeze out event and didn't get until well past 8pm we wouldn't have started till about nineish at the earliest. By which point Charlie and dragon promotions had the exhibition with Borana and Shanelle Lorraine. I can't stop people from saying what they will about the situation but I'm not going to let false info fly around.

We admitted already that a final should have been played and will be next year as we already have multiple plans on the table. However misinformation likethis only makes situations worse.

I dont understand what you are posting as anything different from what was posted previously. CW left to go watch the two girls play and chopped the money with Mika. In order to do so - Mika had to agree to the chop or he could have been declared the winner with a no show/forfeit from CW. That didn't happen. Let's not give Mika a Get Out Of Jail free card here. He doesn't deserve it.

Maybe CW should have planned better and not scheduled the beauty pageant the same day as a tournament he was playing in. Again, the ABP wants to be taking seriously but still can't figure out how to work like a professional organization. If I was hosting a tournament, I would tell the ABP to take my rules or leave it--- until I see them acting according to how they want to be treated.

And you state 9PM like that is late hours for the pool world or a couple of pool players.
 
By now you should know this.
Anything Charlie Williams touches or is involved with is a bust or has a shitload of controversy involved.
Why is anyone suprised, I dont get it.
 
And you state 9PM like that is late hours for the pool world or a couple of pool players.

From what I recall reading in the various thread on this subject, the issue with playing that late in th evening was due to the fact that the SBE folks would be tearing everything down at that point.

Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said.
 
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