Milliken

JB Cases · Nov 5, 2011

realkingcobra said:
John, you're back peddeling buddy..LOL you said ALL of John's tables had Milliken Super Pro on them, but I understand all you're trying to do is sell Milliken cloth, so I'll help you out, OK.

If anyone decides that they DON'T want to install Simonis cloth on their pool table(s) then please go right ahead and install the Milliken Super Pro cloth on your table(s) instead of ANY other kind of cloth. I've installed it before, it's a great cloth in my opinion, better than any other cloth I know of on the market, it's just not Simonis, that's all. My first choice is Simonis, but if I HAD to choose something else, it would be the Milliken Super Pro cloth.

There, does that help John?:grin:

Glen

I was under the impression that John had recovered all his tables with SuperPro.

Yes it helps that you recognize that Super Pro is a high quality cloth on par with Simonis. Simonis is the market leader in the USA and Europe due to longevity in the market combined with excellent and broad marketing. But they are not the only high quality product on the market.

And I do still disagree with your opinion that it plays more like 760. Scott Taylor at Sterling insisted that it be installed next to Simonis in many rooms around Charlotte for six months to see how the players and room owners reacted to it. Scott went out and counted off divots per square foot as one measure of comparison to reassure himself that the cloth quality was at least as good as Simonis. That's the basis of their information about the cloth and not the marketing bullet points put out by the SuperPro marketing department.

Keane · Nov 5, 2011

JB Cases said:
I was under the impression that John had recovered all his tables with SuperPro.

Yes it helps that you recognize that Super Pro is a high quality cloth on par with Simonis. Simonis is the market leader in the USA and Europe due to longevity in the market combined with excellent and broad marketing. But they are not the only high quality product on the market.

And I do still disagree with your opinion that it plays more like 760. Scott Taylor at Sterling insisted that it be installed next to Simonis in many rooms around Charlotte for six months to see how the players and room owners reacted to it. Scott went out and counted off divots per square foot as one measure of comparison to reassure himself that the cloth quality was at least as good as Simonis. That's the basis of their information about the cloth and not the marketing bullet points put out by the SuperPro marketing department.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything... it could just mean that people play on the Simonis more because they like it more, so it gets divots to match the Milliken </DevilsAdvocate>

RackemBilliards · Nov 5, 2011

Miliken

I think the Super Pro is very nice cloth as well. As to divots, the Championship Tour Edition is more durable than either Simonis or Miliken, but doesn't play as well as either, IMO, and stretches more than either. If you want one more player's opinion, I agree that the Super Pro is closer to 760 in playability than it is to 860 or 860hr, and I've never had to restretch Simonis. I've also been happy with Granito Basalt from Gorina, though the last dozen or so cuts have been nappier, and therefore slower, than in years past. Tough to go wrong with 860hr if you're ok with the cost. Just one more opinion, for what it's worth.

Dave Smith

JB Cases · Nov 5, 2011

Keane said:
That doesn't necessarily mean anything... it could just mean that people play on the Simonis more because they like it more, so it gets divots to match the Milliken </DevilsAdvocate>

True. But the reporting was that the tables with SuperPro got about the same amount of play. Also reported was that the better players in the rooms either could not tell the difference or were happy with both.

I doubt that Scott and the room owners compared the records to see how much actual table time each table got but he might have for all I know.

Personally I WISH that we had more actual data and less hype. Cloth, being an expensive consumable should be backed up with hard data and not just people's feelings. After all players want to have good cloth on the tables at all times. So if there is a cloth that plays well and lasts longer and plays fairly consistently throughout it's lifespan then consumers should know about that with evidence that is presentable.

Dartman · Nov 6, 2011

JB Cases said:
... Personally I WISH that we had more actual data and less hype. Cloth, being an expensive consumable should be backed up with hard data and not just people's feelings. After all players want to have good cloth on the tables at all times. So if there is a cloth that plays well and lasts longer and plays fairly consistently throughout it's lifespan then consumers should know about that with evidence that is presentable.

Too many variables come into play to determine if or to what extent one cloth is better then another.
Generally speaking:
Manufacturing processes
Wool quality
Quality and consistency of cloth installations
Amount of play
Type of player
Environmental conditions
Frequency and degree of cloth maintenance

I'm generally agreeing with what you said John and IMO any of the premium cloths (simonis, hainsworth, gorina, strachan) offer excellent playability but durability is subjective. Just because a cloth looks worn does not mean it is but most people will get that opinion.

Dave · Nov 6, 2011

subjective / objective

Call it a can of worms. Too many variables, as said previously, and not enough facts.
Maybe this will be resolved when Consumer Reports takes a look at cloth and rubber... and tests them for a few years.... queue these up right after toaster ovens!
Wait a minute... I can hear it now.... someone doesn't think Consumer Reports is that objective!
How do you analyze something that's based on questions like fast? or durable? and better?. This is all filtered through touch, feel, opinion, experience and hearsay.... throw in some apocryphal hogwash too. I'll add an additional layer>>> this is all in service to colliding spheres hit with wooden sticks .

The science is demanding and elusive....

realkingcobra · Nov 6, 2011

JB Cases said:
True. But the reporting was that the tables with SuperPro got about the same amount of play. Also reported was that the better players in the rooms either could not tell the difference or were happy with both.

I doubt that Scott and the room owners compared the records to see how much actual table time each table got but he might have for all I know.

Personally I WISH that we had more actual data and less hype. Cloth, being an expensive consumable should be backed up with hard data and not just people's feelings. After all players want to have good cloth on the tables at all times. So if there is a cloth that plays well and lasts longer and plays fairly consistently throughout it's lifespan then consumers should know about that with evidence that is presentable.

Divits or miscue cut marks in the playing surface are a direct result of cue tips needing to be replaced, so that's really not a way of judging how well a cloth is holding up. I could install the Milliken Super Pro cloth on a bar table in some of the bars I use to work in up in Washington state, and in 90 days you could find a 100+ divits in the cloth. Also when you compare cloths, they should be of the same blend of wool/nylon to make it fair, as Simonis 860HR is 70/30 wool/nylon vs Simonis 860 which is 90/10 wool/nylon, Championship 3030 is 70/30 wool/nylon and can't or shouldn't be compared to normal 860, whereas if put up against the 86HR, that's a whole different story, as the Simonis 860HR does outplay and outlast the Championship 3030. So, don't throw Milliken Super Pro out there as a better cloth than Simonis, unless you're pointing out which blend of Simonis you're talking about. And I do agree there is a few different manufactures of worsted wool cloths, and they do make a good product, but do they really do as much to support this industry as Simonis does? No, not even of you added them all together, they still don't. Maybe when they step up to the plate and start taking the lead, instead of trying to ride on Simonis's reputation as "just as good as" then maybe they'll get a bigger market share, but until then, I'll still continue to support Simonis.

Glen

realkingcobra · Nov 6, 2011

JB Cases said:
SuperPro is a great cloth made in a mill that has been in business LONGER than Simonis. Both are great cloths made by great companies.

"Strachan cloth has been made in the West of England since 1890. Today, it is widely recognized as the leading global brand and continues to be the choice of table manufacturers, fitters, players and clubs"

I don't think that Shrachan starting in 1890 makes them as old as Simonis starting in 1680...therefore the begining dates of Simonis makes them in business LONGER than Shrachan, don't it?

Glen

carter1984 · Nov 7, 2011

I work for Sterling Gaming, the exclusive US distributor for the Woolen Specialty Products where the SuperPro and 6811 Snooker products are made. I just wanted to throw some facts in this discussion.

Regarding the age of "Milliken" -

"Cloth has been made at Lodgemore, Stroud, from as early as the 1400s. Today, Milliken Woollen Speciality Products continues to make a highly specialised range of cloth products including tennis balls and snooker and pool table coverings. These high quality products are used in professional tennis and snooker championships such as Wimbledon and World Snooker tournaments."

Milliken was founded much later, seeing as how America had not yet been discovered in the 1400's, and did not purchase this mill until the late 1980's (I believe). Milliken did so in an effort to bring their products full circle, as they had sold most of the US woolel plants as they grew into other chemical and textile technologies. As to when they started producing the brands they offer now, I am not sure. I just remember the guys working their now telling me how old the mill was, and how long they have been producing woolen products.

As to the other posters questions of "what other products are produced at the mill?"

This mill at Lodgemore focuses on two main products - Billiards cloth and tennis ball coverings. They produce the "Simonis equivalent" - in terms of brand recognition and recommendation - of the snooker world with their 6811 Gold snooker cloth. Their SuperPro cloth has an excellent reputation amongst some table mechanics familiar with it, room owners, and professional players. Their wool tennis ball coverings are used by most of the brands names of tennis balls you have ever heard of, and in all the major tournaments all over the world. All that to say that this mill is known for producing some of the absolute best quality in their respective fields.

Their SuperPro brand of cloth has not enjoyed the same amount of brand exposure as has some others. In the last few years, they have tried ramping up their marketing a bit, Starting in 2007 with the BCA Championships. This year they were sponsors of the Seminole Pro Tour, the Fury 14.1 Challenge in Valley Forge, the Tri-State tour in the northeast, and even many other world events.

Dartman · Nov 7, 2011

Mills that produce billiard cloth also produce other woven products. The lone, current exception that I know of is Simonis. I think what's more important to understand is that some cloth brands such as Hainsworth and Simonis are made in-house compared to other cloth brands like Championship that are outsourced to non-owned mills typically in Mexico or China.

It's reasonable to think that cloth produced in-house would have better quality control then cloth that is outsourced and for starters this can be checked by comparing the number of flaws in a bolt from different producers.

realkingcobra · Nov 7, 2011

carter1984 said:
I work for Sterling Gaming, the exclusive US distributor for the Woolen Specialty Products where the SuperPro and 6811 Snooker products are made. I just wanted to throw some facts in this discussion.

Regarding the age of "Milliken" -

"Cloth has been made at Lodgemore, Stroud, from as early as the 1400s. Today, Milliken Woollen Speciality Products continues to make a highly specialised range of cloth products including tennis balls and snooker and pool table coverings. These high quality products are used in professional tennis and snooker championships such as Wimbledon and World Snooker tournaments."

Milliken was founded much later, seeing as how America had not yet been discovered in the 1400's, and did not purchase this mill until the late 1980's (I believe). Milliken did so in an effort to bring their products full circle, as they had sold most of the US woolel plants as they grew into other chemical and textile technologies. As to when they started producing the brands they offer now, I am not sure. I just remember the guys working their now telling me how old the mill was, and how long they have been producing woolen products.

As to the other posters questions of "what other products are produced at the mill?"

This mill at Lodgemore focuses on two main products - Billiards cloth and tennis ball coverings. They produce the "Simonis equivalent" - in terms of brand recognition and recommendation - of the snooker world with their 6811 Gold snooker cloth. Their SuperPro cloth has an excellent reputation amongst some table mechanics familiar with it, room owners, and professional players. Their wool tennis ball coverings are used by most of the brands names of tennis balls you have ever heard of, and in all the major tournaments all over the world. All that to say that this mill is known for producing some of the absolute best quality in their respective fields.

Their SuperPro brand of cloth has not enjoyed the same amount of brand exposure as has some others. In the last few years, they have tried ramping up their marketing a bit, Starting in 2007 with the BCA Championships. This year they were sponsors of the Seminole Pro Tour, the Fury 14.1 Challenge in Valley Forge, the Tri-State tour in the northeast, and even many other world events.

Now that's a straight up answer that I can accept. I've never bashed the Milliken Super Pro cloth what-so-ever, and believe there's a big enough market to share the cloth sales with other cloth manufactures...100%. I just wish cloth distributors would promote their product on their own merit, and not on the coat tales of other cloth manufactures. I don't care for the "just like Simonis" or "as good as Simonis" types of sale pitches, like it's a way of using Simonis to endorse the cloth they're selling.

If you think about it for a minute, that kind of sales pitch actually degrades the sales of the cloth trying to be sold as an imitation type of "Simonis" cloth, meaning it's NOT Simonis, but trust us...it's "just as good" or "better than" Simonis, instead of just promoting the fact that it's another make of worsted wool cloth, that stands on it's own merit, and is backed up by the cloth manufacture as being one of the best made playing cloths on the market today...as a new and different choice to the consumers and table mechanics. I've worked with the Milliken cloth in the past and liked it a lot, but for the most part I almost always use Simonis, because that's what my customers ask for. I'm not in the cloth sales business, so I don't feel its my place to sell someone on a certain kind of cloth that they should have installed on their pool table(s). I think that's the job of the cloth manufactures and sales company that sell that product to promote it, so that my customers ask for it, instead of Simonis if that's what they want. But there's the problem, promotion of the product. That's why it seems like all the worsted wool cloths made are compared to Simonis, like it's some kind of endorsement or something from Simonis...only without asking Simonis if they'd be willing to tell potential customers that, YES...that certain kind of cloth is just as good as ours, so go a head and buy their cloth instead of ours.

Glen

carter1984 · Nov 7, 2011

That makes sense Glenn, and honestly, most of the guys I know in the business have recognized that the SuperPro is indeed one of the best products on the market for high end tournament play. At least the ones open-minded and knowledgeable enough to truly make an informed opinion of the product.

What you might not fully appreciate is the "layman" view. In this industry, Simonis has been such a dominant name for so long that they could probably start making crap cloth and most of the bangers would still ask for it by name simply to boast of their "knowledge of the game and the best equipment". Not that Simonis would ever do that, just trying to demonstrate the strength of the brand (plus most of the guys that frequent this section of the forum would probably notice any decrease in quality instantly). Their marketing has paid off, but the quality had to be good or no matter how much they spent on marketing the cloth would have flopped (see "new Coke").

When that is the ONLY name that people recognize, then it will undoubtedly draw comparisons. That also means that it is a benchmark of sorts for people looking to make comparisons. If they are familiar with one brand, and are curious about another, then they will naturally make comparisons with what they are familiar with. Again, since Simonis has dominated the worsted cloth market for so long, it is almost the ONLY cloth that anyone can really draw comparisons too. Therefore I think it is somewhat natural for folks to draw those comparisons and comment accordingly. This whole thread stared with a consumer trying to educate himself, and he was obviously using his personal experience with the 860 product as a baseline - hence the original question "How does this compare to 860"

And Rick...I think there are actually two mills involved in the process of manufacturing the products made by the Woolen Specialty Products division.

The Lodgemore mill actually weaves the product, then the Cam mill does the dyeing and finishing. Each having their own specialized skills and equipment to ensure a truly high quality finished product. I think it is important for people to know that they are in control of their product, from sourcing the wool and other materials, setting the specs, running the machines, and finishing it off and shipping it out the door.

Back to the original question - There are obviously varying opinions on the speed of the cloth when compared to 860. Anecdotally, I can tell you that it seems to plays more consistent. For instance, it seems some other brands will speed up over time, where as the SuperPro product tends to play at the same speed longer. The best advice I could give would be to find a room that has it on its tables and give a try. If you are looking for a slow playing cloth, then you might want to consider a woolen product instead of a worsted.

realkingcobra · Nov 7, 2011

I wish people understood that when asking to compare the speed of one cloth compared to another is not all that easy to answer. There's variables such as color and wool/nylon content that change the speeds of cloth, even with Simonis. The 860 Green don't play any where near the speed of the Tour Blue 860HR or 860, because of the color dye in making the cloth. I would say the Milliken Super Pro cloth plays faster than the Simonis 860 Green, where as it plays closer to the Simonis 760 in that respect, yet it's not that much faster than the Simonis Tour Blue 860HR. But in the same respect, the Green 860 has a tendency to slow it's speed down in time due to wear, whereas the Tour Blue 860HR seems to maintain it's speed, as does the Milliken Super Pro. Championship 3030 over time speeds up faster than it starts out, to the point that I don't even like playing on it, because it's just to fast. Granito 2000 breaks down in the ghost rack behind where you rack the balls if left on to long before changing it, I know, I had to replace the cloth on quite a few bar tables up in Washington state when I first promoted it to the bar industry back in the 80's and 90's. What Milliken is lacking, is a table manufacturer like Diamond to promote the cloth, because their tables are used in so many North American held pool tournaments, and now starting to send their tables to other countries to support the need for tables for tournaments.

Glen

Dartman · Nov 7, 2011

carter1984 said:
...
I think it is important for people to know that they are in control of their product, from sourcing the wool and other materials, setting the specs, running the machines, and finishing it off and shipping it out the door. ...

Exactly the point I was speaking of Matt. :thumbup:

Mr. Bond · Nov 7, 2011

carter1984 said:
.... In this industry, Simonis has been such a dominant name for so long that they could probably start making crap cloth and most of the bangers would still ask for it by name simply to boast of their "knowledge of the game and the best equipment".....

Milliken

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