Modified 3/8x10 pin, What are your opinions thoughts?

Zud

Zud

Old Dog Trying to Learn
Silver Member
My player has a modified 3/8x10 pin. I mainly found this out when trying to get a set of jp's on the butt.

A local cuemaker (Brian King) made the cue and uses this pin

I surfed the net a bit and found this on the pin.

http://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.htm

It looks like it came in around 2006 for his (dz) use. Is this pin still used much or was it replaced by G-10?

any thoughts/comments/opinions?
 
joint pin

I believe the modified 3/8-10 was inspired by DPK's 3/8-11.

I have switched over to it recently and I think its fast becoming the new standard for joint pins. It has 2 major improvements over the classic 3/8-10 (60 degree form). One is the bottom of thread form is flat so it locates in a more consistent manor in the shaft and two the centering barrel. The center of the new design also allows for a improvement in the installation process.

I think we will see more and more of this pin in the future.
 
Zud -- G-10 is a material, not a size.

Joint pins can be made from many different materials. Examples: stainless steel, brass, aluminum, titanium, G-10.

3/8 x 10 is a size -- 3/8" major diameter and 10 threads per inch.

Joint pins can be made in many different sizes. Examples: 3/8 x 10, 3/8 x 11, 3/8 x 14, 5/16 x 14, 5/16 x 18.

And, yes, I believe quite a few cue makers are using the 3/8 x 10 modified pin, also called 3/8 x 10 flat-bottom pin.
 
It has been my understanding that varations in the 3/8 pin (and others) came about mainly to keep other cue makers from easily making shafts for the original cue maker's cues.
It also helped set the cue apart by being something different.

3/8 x 11 - 3/8 x 11.5 - Radial - or whatever, I don't know if it is any real improvement over the standard 3/8 x 10 pin other than just being something different.
Different for different's sake is not considered an improvement around here. It is just different!

Better alignment? ... All my shafts seem to align consistently time after time using the 3/8 x 10 pin.
Those pins have been in McDermott cues for ages with no reported problems.

Easier to install? ... that might be a benefit to the cue maker.
But nothing for the player.

The SouthWest cue is considered by many to be an excellent playing cue and there is a story as to why the brass, flat top, 3/8 x 11 pin was chosen as the pin for their cues.
I will let someone else tell it.

I have tried other pins in my cues and IMHO the best bang for the buck is a properly installed good old 3/8 x 10 pin.
Inexpensive, tough, and all the holding power you could need.

Cant wait till the magnetic joints that require NO pin start showing up on cues ... :D ...
 
> I'd personally like to hear exactly what the reason behind the flat-bottom (which is in machinist terms a modified Acme) was. Didn't David Kersenbrock do it first?

I took the time at school to try and make a copy of one out of a Rick Howard cue that was broken by someone else at a tournament. The major was .370,with a .308 minor. On this particular pin,there is just a very tiny flat across the top,basically just enough to deburr it.

The problem I ran into,and maybe this is just a nitty thing,is that on a standard Acme thread gage,which establishes the width of the flat on the tip of the cutter,there is no 11 TPI standard. The gage goes from 1-10.

So,what I did was hand-grind the HSS cutter I used to make it fit the pin from the broken cue,using magnifiers to make sure it fit the flat,and touched the thread groove on both sides. My end result came out to fit an 8 TPI Acme on the gage. I set the Haas lathe I made this on to 11 TPI,and set the cut depth to .031 per side,.0005 per pass,flood coolant. I made several of these out of 300 series stainless.

The end result was closer to the pins DZ is advocating now,with a wider flat across the top of the thread,rather than sharper like the Howard. They were also in semi-serious need of cosmetic work as well,even with my cautious speed control and light cuts using a HSS cutter,they still were not as nice looking as the pins in the Prather catalog,or the one that DZ shows in that cutaway view.

Now I know why smart cuemakers either spend the cash for ground pins,or have some kind of thread grinding setup,single-pointing them seems like a pain in the ass,the extra work in cleaning them up to look nice on the business end could cause inaccuracy sizewise too. Tommy D.
 
Harvey Martin's Pin

A little off the main subject..

just offering my thoughts..
I might be wrong,
I see Harvey Martin's cues with the 3/8" x 12 self tapping or wood Screws. (Looks like the SW Pin)
The 12 TPI (Threads per inch) was the US Standard for 3/8" Nominal Size..
I guess in Harveys' era, they were still the Pioneers of cue creating, and,
I can see his logic.. Wood Screws for joining wood.
Later, it was made in a 11 TIP version. Maybe it was, so nobody can go the the store and get it and use it.

Machinery's HandBook- Self Tapping/Sheet Metal/ Wood Screws..

Also, Why does TAD Cues have a 3/8" X 12 60*V Thread Pin?
Seems the West Coast kinda had that standards in mind, but, at a cross
road of choosing Metal Screw and Wood Screw Nominal sizes and TPIs and thread configurations..
(Then Burnswick)


Alton - FWIW
 
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We don't tolerate dumb questions around here. Since yours is not, I'll answer it. The shafts are interchangeable with regards to the pin.


Alton,
I believe it was Harvey Martin that introduced the 3/8x10 pin to the cue world as well.

Why does Tad use what he uses, I don't know. You'd have to ask him.
But then why does Meucci use the 18, Schon the 14, Blud the 11.455 and Predator the Uni-Loc QR? It's useless to speculate and I'm sure that each would tell you that theirs is the best.
Admittedly, there are advantages to each thread but to date, no one has come-up with a pin that incorporates all of those advantages into one pin.

I'd like to give those who are interested in the flat-bottom pin something to consider.
It's purported that the flat-bottom pin, because of the threaded hole's reduced minor diameter, aligns the pin better in that hole.
The only thread that I'm aware of that actually locates on the minor diameter is the Uni-Loc Radial. All other threads locate on the major diameter AND where the V threads contact as determined by G/H limits.

Now to increased 'pin to wood' contact. Again, you're not going to do better than the Radial. By design, the entire pin is in contact with the wood. Compare this to the flat-bottom. Let's say you had the minor of the pin and the minor of the hole at EXACTLY the same size. Would it then be in full contact? I think that would be debatable. They may be touching, but just barely. It isn't adding anything to secure the joint and I don't see where it is adding anything in terms of transferring vibration/resonance.
In order to do that, the wood would have to be in compression to the pin which would require an interference-fit of the pin to the wood. You likely wouldn't be able to screw the cue together.
The contact with the flat-bottom's minor is so slight that if it were used anywhere else in a cue (without epoxy), it could create a buzz.

Just food for thought and just my opinions. Dissect as needed.
 
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KJ Cues said:
I'd like to give those who are interested in the flat-bottom pin something to consider.
It's purported that the flat-bottom pin, because of the threaded hole's reduced minor diameter, aligns the pin better in that hole.
The only thread that I'm aware of that actually locates on the minor diameter is the Uni-Loc Radial. All other threads locate on the major diameter AND where the V threads contact as determined by G/H limits.

Now to increased 'pin to wood' contact. Again, you're not going to do better than the Radial.
Click to expand...

And I was just getting comfortable with the 3/8-10!!;) Now I need to buy taps and pins and practice on the Uni-Loc Radial.

It's OK, that's how we learn and AGAIN I'm so grateful for the free exchange of advice/experience/gotchas on this forum.

THANKS KJ!

Gary
 
KJ Cues said:
We don't tolerate dumb questions around here. Since yours is not, I'll answer it. The shafts are interchangeable with regards to the pin.
Click to expand...

Mr. KJ,

I had that doubt too, I not working with the modified pin in my cues in this moment, but I have some in my store curiously and a shaft Mcdermoot for repair also,

I tried screw on but not compatible....:confused:. I think that shaf need a small modification, however I like modified pin for new look, better??marketing??...I dont know, I hope to try Bryan´s modified pin soon.
 
KJ Cues said:
The shafts are interchangeable with regards to the pin.
Click to expand...

KJ -- Not all 3/8-10 shafts are compatible with the flat-bottomed pin. The old-style 3/8-10 pin, like McDermott uses, generally has a smaller minor diameter than do the new-style, flat-bottomed pins (often about .308").

The result is that a shaft tapped for the new-style pin will fit on the old-style pin, but a shaft tapped for the old-style pin won't fit on the new-style pin. However, a cue maker can easily enlarge the hole on the old-style shaft a bit so it will work on both pins.
 
AtLarge said:
KJ -- Not all 3/8-10 shafts are compatible with the flat-bottomed pin. The old-style 3/8-10 pin, like McDermott uses, generally has a smaller minor diameter than do the new-style, flat-bottomed pins (often about .308").

The result is that a shaft tapped for the new-style pin will fit on the old-style pin, but a shaft tapped for the old-style pin won't fit on the new-style pin. However, a cue maker can easily enlarge the hole on the old-style shaft a bit so it will work on both pins.
Click to expand...

Hi All,

Obviously, if your minor in the female threads is smaller than the minor of the pin, then you're going to have problems. The pin just won't go into the hole.

Years ago I was experimenting with different sized tap-drills for the conventional 3/8x10 pin in an effort to get greater contact area.
One thing I learned was that, going from the current std of 5/16"(.3125") tap-drill for the 3/8" pin to the elusive .308", yielded very little gain. Actually, just .002" per side.
Even going to 19/64 (.2969") only yielded a .008" gain per side.
But to what avail? This thread does not locate on the minor anyway.

Before we get too far down the road on this topic, let me remind everyone that the only purpose of the connecting pin is to secure the shaft to the handle/butt. How securely it can do this and still come apart at YOUR will is all that matters. There is no transfer of vibration/resonance via the pin. That transfer happens at the joint faces.
This may be why we have so many odd pins to deal with. They all accomplish the connection in fine fashion, albeit some better than others.
10, 11, 11.5, 12, 13, 14 & even 18 TPI, does it really make any difference?
The only thing that changes is the angle of the thread.
It sure would be nice if the industry could settle on one.

One more thing I'd like to state for those who aren't familiar with my writing style. On occasion, I'm known to sprinkle a little controversy in the soup. This is not meant to 'turn-up the heat' but rather to encourage people to think. Thinking raises questions. Questions spur discussion and debate which hopefully leads to a better understanding. For all of us.
The problem is that some people don't like being made to think. Fortunately, everyone here likes to think.

Have a Great Day people.
 
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BryanMordt said:
I believe the modified 3/8-10 was inspired by DPK's 3/8-11.

I have switched over to it recently and I think its fast becoming the new standard for joint pins. It has 2 major improvements over the classic 3/8-10 (60 degree form). One is the bottom of thread form is flat so it locates in a more consistent manor in the shaft and two the centering barrel. The center of the new design also allows for a improvement in the installation process.

I think we will see more and more of this pin in the future.
Click to expand...

Hi Bryan,

As a point of clarification Omega DPK used a 3/8 x 14 if that is the DPK you are referring to.

Rick Geschrey
 
KJ Cues said:
Hi All,

They all accomplish the connection in fine fashion, albeit some better than others.
10, 11, 11.5, 12, 13, 14 & even 18 TPI, does it really make any difference?
Have a Great Day people.
Click to expand...

As long as the Cue maker using a certain pin believes in what, and why he uses that pin, whether it be, Stainless, Brass, Titanium, Aluminum, and G10, added Stainless joints versus sleeved stainless or Phenolic, Then Yes, It makes a difference. A certain part of the buyers market is, They buy what their preferred Cue makers philosophy is and how he puts that into his cues. Just my opinion.
 
Bill Stroud


"Alton,
I believe it was Harvey Martin that introduced the 3/8x10 pin to the cue world as well."


There was a Magazine that was printed in the mid '90's.. I forgot the name..
It was a Tan color and about cues..
Original 3/8" x 10 pin (60* V Threads).. Bill Stoud wrote a reply to an artical and mentioned he did..
Just wanted to tell where I got the info..
Alton
 
The modified pin is better than the standard, since with advanced installation procedures, it's much more precise.
Some are satisfied with using taps, even unpiloted ones, but it doesn't take much to take it to another level, so why not?
The flat bottomed pins and radials require more precision, and if someone doesn't have the equipment, they are better off not using them, since an improper install is less forgiving than it is with a standard thread.
 
CueCaps said:

"Alton,
I believe it was Harvey Martin that introduced the 3/8x10 pin to the cue world as well."


There was a Magazine that was printed in the mid '90's.. I forgot the name..
It was a Tan color and about cues..
Original 3/8" x 10 pin (60* V Threads).. Bill Stoud wrote a reply to an artical and mentioned he did..
Just wanted to tell where I got the info..
Alton
Click to expand...

I believe his was 3/8 12.
 
Sheldon said:
The modified pin is better than the standard, since with advanced installation procedures, it's much more precise.
Some are satisfied with using taps, even unpiloted ones, but it doesn't take much to take it to another level, so why not?
The flat bottomed pins and radials require more precision, and if someone doesn't have the equipment, they are better off not using them, since an improper install is less forgiving than it is with a standard thread.
Click to expand...

Amen, tap tap!
 
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