Moral/Rules Question

skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please give me your input

facts:
Playing in our state wide tournament.
Rule in question - "one of the ways to lose is failure to properly identify the pocket on the 8-ball". - No marker is placed and no allowance for obvious, just have to indicate it somehow. Lousy rule.
I am team captain
My player has a hot temper and really wants to win
He loses 10-0 in a game against their worst player after 3 times at bat - (mad)
His next game is the determining game of the match. He is must win.
He misses and the other player completes a simple 4 ball patter, gets straight in 1 foot shot on 8 ball.
I turn around a write down the score, congratulate the other team
My player declares the other team did not call the 8 ball
I have no idea if he did or not. He did not while I was watching but I turned away while he shot.
My second player backs up the first player.
The other team claims he did call the pocket and comes up with a half dozen different ideas about how he did it.
I know they are not honest as they clearly lied once before.
The teams argue and the league operator comes over and is basically no help at all. Won't make a ruling. Suggests things like replay or coin flip - none agree to that (except me ;-)
I won't sign the score sheet in support of my team, although I really wish I had just taken up bowling instead.
The other team takes my unsigned score sheet up and turns it in.
My angry player wants me to claim I did not write in the score.
I tell him I did write in the score before he complained.
He gets mad and goes home because "you have to support your team"
After 2 forfeits we still finish 6th and win money. Angry player won't come to my house to get his share. Pretty angry I guess. We have been friends for 10 years.

SUMMARY:
I did not like the position my team took either way. I don't want to win that way but that is just me, I understand that a "rule is a rule". I thought refusing to sign the score sheet was as far as I could go in "supporting the team". I could not say he didn't call the pocket because I was not looking and could not say I didn't enter the score because I did.
I hate that the league operator is so indecisive and the rule is so vague (doesn't say what happens if the teams do not agree on the issue). But would like to hear comments on what I might have done different or how you guys look at it.
:frown:
BTW I now play an a lower skilled team that is less intense. AND I AM NOT THE CAPTAIN.
 
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Sounds like your team mates were a bunch of nits. I've played with guys like that, one year, and switched teams. My team is still competitive, but is a really good group of guys, which I enjoy being around. Winning and having absolutely no fun while doing it, due to too many alpha dog egos, just isn't my cup of tea. I've seen all manner of bullshit in league, mostly from the alpha dog ego crowd. It's always something, but never them. :smile:
 
onepocketron said:
Sounds like your team mates were a bunch of nits. I've played with guys like that, one year, and switched teams. My team is still competitive, but is a really good group of guys, which I enjoy being around. Winning and having absolutely no fun while doing it, due to too many alpha dog egos, just isn't my cup of tea. I've seen all manner of bullshit in league, mostly from the alpha dog ego crowd. It's always something, but never them. :smile:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the perspective.

Earlier I had a chance at a 15-0 run out and missed a simple shot on the 7 ball. To me I should have made the 7 ball or he should not have lost 10-0 to their worst player. I just don't like the feeling that I did not do enough to support the team. I have no idea what enough meant to him.
 
If you have a ball straight in and call the pocket, the patch isn't needed, IMHO.

The rules may say otherwise, but I don't need to see a patch to figure out where the ball is called.

To say otherwise, you have to be nittish.
 
HawaiianEye said:
If you have a ball straight in and call the pocket, the patch isn't needed, IMHO.

The rules may say otherwise, but I don't need to see a patch to figure out where the ball is called.

To say otherwise, you have to be nittish.
Click to expand...

The argument was he did not call the pocket at all. No marker is required nor is an obvious pocket acceptable. You have to do SOMETHING to indicate the pocket. My players said he did not call it. I did not see him when I was looking but it was obvious so I looked away to jot down the score. I was not looking for a possible technical foul to pay them back but my team was. Technically if he did not call it he lost but if he somehow pointed to it with his cue or his nose or something which a lot of players do he won. My team said he just shot it in. His team said he pointed with his cue, called it out load, pointed with his head and just about every other way they could think of.

He probably did forget to call it but I can't swear to that because I looked away to write down the score.

Point of curiosity. Suppose you were watching closely and you clearly saw the opposing team jump up and shoot the ball in without in any way indicating the pocket and the rule was as I outlined. Would you have wanted that win and argued with the other team or just shake their hand and say nice game? My guys would let it slide if they liked the other players and fight to the death if they did not. I am a let it slide guy no matter who it is and that is what makes my super A type guy so mad.

The team played a nitish rule against us earlier and clearly did lie that time so my guys were in a vengeful mood. I am pretty non confrontational. I really didn't care if he called the pocket or not. The other team are jerks and have a bad rep but that doesn't affect who I am.

I think I just try to hard to please everyone and sometimes it isn't possible.
 
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I seen this happen and it drives me crazy. I do not want to win a game by resorting to some loophole in the rules. If the 8 was more than obvious you should be a man and accept defeat.

That would be like when Earl called the obvious 2 when he meant the 10 and Shaw went bananas.
 
I understand you wanting to support you team, but honestly if it was a straight in shot just take the L. You said yourself it is a lousy rule. Talk to your player about his attitude and sportsmanship.

If it is obvious the pocket, call is a bunch of BS anyway. I generally refuse to call them, and whenever I do, I simply say to the player, you should have marked your pocket. I won't take it from you but others will.

The only time I would ever call it is an obvious slop in. That is just me though.
 
Poolhall60561 said:
I seen this happen and it drives me crazy. I do not want to win a game by resorting to some loophole in the rules. If the 8 was more than obvious you should be a man and accept defeat.

That would be like when Earl called the obvious 2 when he meant the 10 and Shaw went bananas.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That is the way I feel. Maybe I am just not all that competitive. I always thought I was. Maybe it is old age. :wink:
 
DCS_SF said:
I understand you wanting to support you team, but honestly if it was a straight in shot just take the L. You said yourself it is a lousy rule. Talk to your player about his attitude and sportsmanship.

If it is obvious the pocket, call is a bunch of BS anyway. I generally refuse to call them, and whenever I do, I simply say to the player, you should have marked your pocket. I won't take it from you but others will.

The only time I would ever call it is an obvious slop in. That is just me though.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the opinion. I feel pretty good about my decision now. Most people feel about as I do on it. What is weird, the same guys (my team) gave a different team a win with an accidental bank in the corner after missing a side pocket. It was clearly not called and a total surprise to the player and they knew he was lying but they were not mad at the time. :rolleyes:
 
I play in a Monday night in house 8 ball league. I've played in this league for approx 15 years - minus a couple when I was on 2nd shift. There are 10 teams and everyone pretty much knows everyone else. The 8 ball is a called shot; but when it's obvious most just shoot it in. Yea I know the rule is to call the pocket - but we seem to be going on curtesy and the honor system. For me it's a league to have fun and not hastle over a rule to get another shot. The guy that runs our league is the ref and handles any questions.
 
skipbales said:
Thanks for the opinion. I feel pretty good about my decision now. Most people feel about as I do on it. What is weird, the same guys (my team) gave a different team a win with an accidental bank in the corner after missing a side pocket. It was clearly not called and a total surprise to the player and they knew he was lying but they were not mad at the time. :rolleyes:
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Nah you made a fine choice, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. I just think the rule is crap.
flyrv9 said:
I play in a Monday night in house 8 ball league. I've played in this league for approx 15 years - minus a couple when I was on 2nd shift. There are 10 teams and everyone pretty much knows everyone else. The 8 ball is a called shot; but when it's obvious most just shoot it in. Yea I know the rule is to call the pocket - but we seem to be going on curtesy and the honor system. For me it's a league to have fun and not hastle over a rule to get another shot. The guy that runs our league is the ref and handles any questions.
Click to expand...
This is how we are in our league as well.
 
Your teammates are nits.

You're teammate needs to get his emotional issues worked out before he makes himself look like an ass in public again.
 
skipbales said:
Please give me your input

facts:
Playing in our state wide tournament.
Rule in question - "one of the ways to lose is failure to properly identify the pocket on the 8-ball". - No marker is placed and no allowance for obvious, just have to indicate it somehow. Lousy rule.
I am team captain
My player has a hot temper and really wants to win
He loses 10-0 in a game against their worst player after 3 times at bat - (mad)
His next game is the determining game of the match. He is must win.
He misses and the other player completes a simple 4 ball patter, gets straight in 1 foot shot on 8 ball.
I turn around a write down the score, congratulate the other team
My player declares the other team did not call the 8 ball
I have no idea if he did or not. He did not while I was watching but I turned away while he shot.
My second player backs up the first player.
The other team claims he did call the pocket and comes up with a half dozen different ideas about how he did it.
I know they are not honest as they clearly lied once before.
The teams argue and the league operator comes over and is basically no help at all. Won't make a ruling. Suggests things like replay or coin flip - none agree to that (except me ;-)
I won't sign the score sheet in support of my team, although I really wish I had just taken up bowling instead.
The other team takes my unsigned score sheet up and turns it in.
My angry player wants me to claim I did not write in the score.
I tell him I did write in the score before he complained.
He gets mad and goes home because "you have to support your team"
After 2 forfeits we still finish 6th and win money. Angry player won't come to my house to get his share. Pretty angry I guess. We have been friends for 10 years.

SUMMARY:
I did not like the position my team took either way. I don't want to win that way but that is just me, I understand that a "rule is a rule". I thought refusing to sign the score sheet was as far as I could go in "supporting the team". I could not say he didn't call the pocket because I was not looking and could not say I didn't enter the score because I did.
I hate that the league operator is so indecisive and the rule is so vague (doesn't say what happens if the teams do not agree on the issue). But would like to hear comments on what I might have done different or how you guys look at it.
:frown:
BTW I now play an a lower skilled team that is less intense. AND I AM NOT THE CAPTAIN.
Click to expand...



I think you are honest and did the right thing. I'd never take a win like that. There is the "letter of the law", and "the spirit of the law". The letter should always support the spirit, and the spirit should dictate. The point is to eliminate slop shots. The pocket was obvious. The fact that the rules allow one to turn an obvious shot into a loss is *against the spirit of the rules*

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
KMRUNOUT said:
... The pocket was obvious. The fact that the rules allow one to turn an obvious shot into a loss is *against the spirit of the rules* ...
Click to expand...
I think the spirit of the rules in that league is "Nittiness Rules!" The rules in that league seem to be very explicit. You have to call the pocket in some manner.

If both teams feel that it's a bad rule -- as do most of the people in this thread -- then they should make a written agreement before the match starts that they will play by some other call shot rules, such as the BCAPL rules. If that is not done, you shouldn't be surprised or mad when the other team wants to enforce the rules of the league.

Here's an idea: play slop on everything. Usually people will agree on whether a ball went in.
 
skipbales said:
Please give me your input

facts:
Playing in our state wide tournament.
Rule in question - "one of the ways to lose is failure to properly identify the pocket on the 8-ball". - No marker is placed and no allowance for obvious, just have to indicate it somehow. Lousy rule.
I am team captain
My player has a hot temper and really wants to win
He loses 10-0 in a game against their worst player after 3 times at bat - (mad)
His next game is the determining game of the match. He is must win.
He misses and the other player completes a simple 4 ball patter, gets straight in 1 foot shot on 8 ball.
I turn around a write down the score, congratulate the other team
My player declares the other team did not call the 8 ball
I have no idea if he did or not. He did not while I was watching but I turned away while he shot.
My second player backs up the first player.
The other team claims he did call the pocket and comes up with a half dozen different ideas about how he did it.
I know they are not honest as they clearly lied once before.
The teams argue and the league operator comes over and is basically no help at all. Won't make a ruling. Suggests things like replay or coin flip - none agree to that (except me ;-)
I won't sign the score sheet in support of my team, although I really wish I had just taken up bowling instead.
The other team takes my unsigned score sheet up and turns it in.
My angry player wants me to claim I did not write in the score.
I tell him I did write in the score before he complained.
He gets mad and goes home because "you have to support your team"
After 2 forfeits we still finish 6th and win money. Angry player won't come to my house to get his share. Pretty angry I guess. We have been friends for 10 years.

SUMMARY:
I did not like the position my team took either way. I don't want to win that way but that is just me, I understand that a "rule is a rule". I thought refusing to sign the score sheet was as far as I could go in "supporting the team". I could not say he didn't call the pocket because I was not looking and could not say I didn't enter the score because I did.
I hate that the league operator is so indecisive and the rule is so vague (doesn't say what happens if the teams do not agree on the issue). But would like to hear comments on what I might have done different or how you guys look at it.
:frown:
BTW I now play an a lower skilled team that is less intense. AND I AM NOT THE CAPTAIN.
Click to expand...

I would much rather shoot (with or against) a player like you, than any of those whining "teammates". Maybe I'm just "low-key" - but I really don't enjoy that kind of drama.
 
You were in the right and I would gladly have you on my team anytime.

I know many on here dont care for apa and think mark your pocket is a silly rule but that rule prevents this type of situation from ever happening.

In my area 90% of the players never mark the pocket during regular session.....including me but its enforced during higher level tournaments.

My team was in a similar situation a couple of sessions ago. My 6 was playing another 6 in a 5/5 race. Hill-hill and my player is on the 8 which is practically hanging in a corner pocket. He gets down in his stance...points at the pocket and shoots it in .

My player goes goes over to shake his hand and the guy is standing there with his arms folded across his chest and a mad look on his face ....continues to just stand there with his arms folded and tells my player he lost because he did not mark the pocket.

My player is just standing there with his hand out and an incredulous look on his face ....never says a word and just turns his head around looking at me. I say neither player marked the pocket for the last 8 racks and now you want to play the ...didnt mark your pocket rule? Their player says I didn't see him call the pocket I say I guess you wasn't paying attention when he pointed at it with his cue like you both were doing the entire match and it was an obvious shot. I then said where the hell did you think he was gonna put it ?

Well their captain pipes up he coulda been going 3 rails for all I know and he didn't mark the pocket so he lost. Lemme tell you folks ....for the 1st time ever in 7 years in apa with 1300 matches under my belt I went ballistic letting them know exactly what I thought about his b.s.move and his character but in the end I relented and gave them the win because a rule is a rule. This happened in the second match.

We get the 4th set and their captain requests a replay the 5th 8 and 9 ball match because they are shorthanded. I did not say anything because I was thinking...wtf ?? . Cant believe they got the gall to request a replay after pulling that b.s. Call on us.

Come the 5 th match their captain requests that their player who called the no marker rule to replay 9 ball . I say....it aint happening. He asks ...well who do you want us to replay. I reply you aint replaying no one and you also are going to forfeit the last 8 ball match to boot.

Well I have never heard so much whining and complaining from a bunch of adults as I did from their entire team. I kept hearing...i thought we were friends....you dont have to make us forfeit...its not a requirement ...every one all ways lets teams have replays...on and on with all kinds of excuses.

One went and got the division rep and another got on the phone with the league operator. In the end they forfeited 2 matches due to pulling a b.s call to win one match. It's the only time I have ever made a team forfeit.

Karma baby .
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think the spirit of the rules in that league is "Nittiness Rules!" The rules in that league seem to be very explicit. You have to call the pocket in some manner.

If both teams feel that it's a bad rule -- as do most of the people in this thread -- then they should make a written agreement before the match starts that they will play by some other call shot rules, such as the BCAPL rules. If that is not done, you shouldn't be surprised or mad when the other team wants to enforce the rules of the league.

Here's an idea: play slop on everything. Usually people will agree on whether a ball went in.
Click to expand...

LOL. I like that one Bob!!:grin: When I played 40 years ago in bars it was pretty much anything goes, no ball in hand and you called non obvious 8 balls. A lot has changed.

I agree. If you are going to have a nit rule on the 8 ball you should go all the way and place a marker. If not, obvious shots should not need to be called. If you are going to have nit rules like the one they have you have to go further and say what happens when there is a disagreement. This league has a lot of rules that end in dead ends.
 
lorider said:
You were in the right and I would gladly have you on my team anytime.

I know many on here dont care for apa and think mark your pocket is a silly rule but that rule prevents this type of situation from ever happening.

In my area 90% of the players never mark the pocket during regular session.....including me but its enforced during higher level tournaments.

My team was in a similar situation a couple of sessions ago. My 6 was playing another 6 in a 5/5 race. Hill-hill and my player is on the 8 which is practically hanging in a corner pocket. He gets down in his stance...points at the pocket and shoots it in .

My player goes goes over to shake his hand and the guy is standing there with his arms folded across his chest and a mad look on his face ....continues to just stand there with his arms folded and tells my player he lost because he did not mark the pocket.

My player is just standing there with his hand out and an incredulous look on his face ....never says a word and just turns his head around looking at me. I say neither player marked the pocket for the last 8 racks and now you want to play the ...didnt mark your pocket rule? Their player says I didn't see him call the pocket I say I guess you wasn't paying attention when he pointed at it with his cue like you both were doing the entire match and it was an obvious shot. I then said where the hell did you think he was gonna put it ?

Well their captain pipes up he coulda been going 3 rails for all I know and he didn't mark the pocket so he lost. Lemme tell you folks ....for the 1st time ever in 7 years in apa with 1300 matches under my belt I went ballistic letting them know exactly what I thought about his b.s.move and his character but in the end I relented and gave them the win because a rule is a rule. This happened in the second match.

We get the 4th set and their captain requests a replay the 5th 8 and 9 ball match because they are shorthanded. I did not say anything because I was thinking...wtf ?? . Cant believe they got the gall to request a replay after pulling that b.s. Call on us.

Come the 5 th match their captain requests that their player who called the no marker rule to replay 9 ball . I say....it aint happening. He asks ...well who do you want us to replay. I reply you aint replaying no one and you also are going to forfeit the last 8 ball match to boot.

Well I have never heard so much whining and complaining from a bunch of adults as I did from their entire team. I kept hearing...i thought we were friends....you dont have to make us forfeit...its not a requirement ...every one all ways lets teams have replays...on and on with all kinds of excuses.

One went and got the division rep and another got on the phone with the league operator. In the end they forfeited 2 matches due to pulling a b.s call to win one match. It's the only time I have ever made a team forfeit.

Karma baby .
Click to expand...

That is funny. In defense of my teammates, that is sort of what they were doing. A tit for tat. Earlier one of my players was placing the cue ball outside the kitchen on an opening break scratch. In our league you can correct rule violations without using a time out. My other player (angry guy) did say the words Time Out. I told the player he had to shoot from the kitchen. Later the player needed a time out and the other team said we had used it and would not let us consult with him based on our 1 time out rule.

That is why they were just looking for a reason to nit pick them back. That said, I still did not agree and am encouraged by all the support here. It has been 2 weeks and the guy hasn't spoken to me or even come by to pick up his share of the winnings for the 6th place we finished in without him.
 
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