More elbow dropping nonsense

JoeW said:
I am not sure about all of this Dave. If the player anticipates using the forearm muscles such as the Supinator, Flexor and Abductor muscles these muscles will tighten and loosen (as needed) before contact in anticipation and thus possibly provide more cue stick guidance. The psycho-neurological literature on anticipated muscle contraction / relaxation is quite clear. The extensor Policis Brevis and related wrist muscles have to be used in a different way than the pendulum swinger uses them and there must be anticipation here as well.

I am suggesting that any person who uses a piston stroke before or after contact is using these muscles before contact. The body simply readies itself for anticipated use and thus it could be expected that there would be some effect for those who intend to use the piston swing after contact.

I am not trying to nitpick here. I am suggesting that those who use a piston swing are using additional muscles to propel the cue stick before and after contact. To be more specific they are making added use of these muscles that the pendulum swinger is not intentionally using. The additional muscles may lead to a better quality of hit in the guidance they provide.
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Joe,

I'm no sure I follow your logic here, but thank you for the information. I see elbow-drop during follow through more as a relaxation process rather than a muscle-activation process. The cue and forearm have momentum after CB contact and they naturally want to continue forward, pulling the upper arm forward and the elbow down as a result. With a pure pendulum stroke, muscles (and the chest, if there is contact) must work more to redirect and slow the momentum.

With a pure pendulum stroke, I also see the upper arm as just part of the stance. Muscles have to work to keep the head and body still during the stroke (especially with more speed). To me the upper arm is just an extension of the body that a pendulum stroker also tries to keep fixed, just like the head and the rest of the body (except the forearm).

Regards,
Dave
 
Since our beloved has been vamosed a la playa for a while, I'll play his role for him in this thread:

SpiderWebComm said:
Not saying a static elbow is good/bad - but a dynamic elbow isn't bad 100%.
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Yes it is.
SpiderWebComm said:
For every top pro someone shows me with a totally static elbow, I can show them 5 who launch their arm through the shot.
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Really? That's nice.

SpiderWebComm said:
All that matters is where your tip is an inch before the CB and how it travels from there to contact.
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Finally, something correct.

SpiderWebComm said:
Mike Davis SWORE to me about 8 years ago the proper pendulum point was from the shoulder because the larger muscle groups allowed for a straighter stroke (and allowing gravity to pull your stroke down straight). People might look at him like he's the Lee Trevino of the pool world, but I don't think he's as crazy as people might think.
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Figures you would.
 
dr_dave said:
Joe,

I'm not sure I follow your logic here, but thank you for the information. I see elbow-drop during follow through more as a relaxation process rather than a muscle-activation process.

The piston player is propelling the cue stick along a line of travel. This requires muscle guidance and the anticipation of muscle guidance. To make the cue stick act like a piston requires additional work (relative to the pendulum player).

The cue and forearm have momentum after CB contact and they naturally want to continue forward, pulling the upper arm forward and the elbow down as a result.

Is it not true that the piston player is guiding (working) to control the specific direction of the cue stick?

With a pure pendulum stroke, muscles (and the chest, if there is contact) must work more to redirect and slow the momentum.

With a pure pendulum stroke, I also see the upper arm as just part of the stance. Muscles have to work to keep the head and body still during the stroke (especially with more speed). To me the upper arm is just an extension of the body that a pendulum stroker also tries to keep fixed, just like the head and the rest of the body (except the forearm).

The pendulum stroker attempts to pin the elbow and I agree this too is work. The piston stroker is intentionally working to drop the elbow in a specific way to guide the cue stick. This is a different type of work. The same and some added muscles in the bicep, forearm, and wrist extension are used to accomplish the task by the piston stroker. Some additional finger control may also be needed in the piston stroke to assist with keeping the stick on line through and beyond the interrupted pendulum arc.

Seems to me that the pendulum stroker is more likely to allow the stick to move through the natural arc guiding it to stay on the table as the fulcrum changes. Less work is needed as the player only guides the stick until the arc has been completed.



Regards,
Dave
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The piston stroke is the specific intent to use additional muscles to move the cue stick down a particular line of travel through the incompleted arc and beyond.

The tightening and loosening of muscles I referred to is the normal antagonistic use of pairs of muscles to accomplish a task by either type of stroke. When one skeletal muscle tightens the opposing muscle relaxes in a coordinated manner.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
*bump* to see a list of pros who use a pinned elbow

someone help
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Dave:

Although not a pro, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night... :p

J/K. I'm not a pro (yet), but I'm an open-level player. I used to play with a dropped-elbow style stroke (the elbow would drop after contact with the cue ball, as my arm "relaxed" and let the weight of the cue "pull" the arm through the follow-through).

However, I'm a pendulum-stroke player now, and I'd worked long and hard at ingraining the pinned elbow into my muscle memory, fixed atop a snooker stance. Basically, my upper arm is "part" of my stance -- part of my upper body, if you will, which I think we can all agree the upper body should NEVER move during the stroke.

I'm not set up for camera recording of my table just yet, but I'll be playing in the Pro Players 10-ball Championship at the Super Billiards Expo. Hope to see you there? If so, I'd be happy to demonstrate the pinned elbow of my particular style, and the double-table-length-plus draw I can get even with a pinned elbow.

Looking forward,
-Sean
 
Neil said:
Oh, excuuuuuse meeeee. It did drop on the first shot! A whole inch! Shame on him! (It dropped the rest of the way when he started to stand up.:rolleyes:)

P.S.- I don't care if you never heard of him or not. He obviously can play good.
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I'm just saying, it doesn't add evidence in favor of a pendulum stroke because A) its not a pendulum stroke (it was more than an inch drop considering it is easily noticeable on a computer screen, probably 3-4 inches), and B) we have no idea what speed he plays. He could be Thorsten's little brother or he could just be your run of the mill A player who took a few tries to get it on camera.
 
sfleinen said:
Dave:

Although not a pro, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night... :p

J/K. I'm not a pro (yet), but I'm an open-level player. I used to play with a dropped-elbow style stroke (the elbow would drop after contact with the cue ball, as my arm "relaxed" and let the weight of the cue "pull" the arm through the follow-through).

However, I'm a pendulum-stroke player now, and I'd worked long and hard at ingraining the pinned elbow into my muscle memory, fixed atop a snooker stance. Basically, my upper arm is "part" of my stance -- part of my upper body, if you will, which I think we can all agree the upper body should NEVER move during the stroke.

I'm not set up for camera recording of my table just yet, but I'll be playing in the Pro Players 10-ball Championship at the Super Billiards Expo. Hope to see you there? If so, I'd be happy to demonstrate the pinned elbow of my particular style, and the double-table-length-plus draw I can get even with a pinned elbow.

Looking forward,
-Sean
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I'll def be there. I usually hang in the TAR booth so try to find me (if nothing else, I just wanna meet ya!). Beer is on me!

Like I said, I shoot with a pinned elbow for over 85% of my shots - so I'm not knocking your technique (I'd be knocking myself like an idiot if I did).

I'll sweat some of your matches and try to pull you through-
Dave
 
Maybe someone wants to go through the just posted all time AZ money list of players, and add if they are an elbow dropper or not, and if they do elbow drop, is it before contact with the cue ball, or after contact with the cue ball.
Here is the list.

Efren Reyes YES

Mika Immonen YES

Francisco Bustamante YES

Ralf Souquet YES

Johnny Archer

Allison Fisher

Thorsten Hohmann YES

Karen Corr

Corey Deuel YES

Niels Feijen

Alex Pagulayan

Rodney Morris

Earl Strickland YES

Dennis Orcollo

Marlon Manalo

Shane Van Boening

Ronnie Alcano

Charlie Williams

Jose Parica

Jeanette Lee

Ga-Young Kim

Darren Appleton

Gabe Owen

John Schmidt

Daryl Peach

Mike Sigel YES

Kelly Fisher

Fong-Pang Chao

Jeremy Jones

Thomas Engert

Ronnie O'Sullivan YES

Jasmin YES
 
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SUPERSTAR said:
Maybe someone wants to go through the just posted all time AZ money list of players, and add if they are an elbow dropper or not, and if they do elbow drop, is it before contact with the cue ball, or after contact with the cue ball.
Here is the list.

Efren Reyes

Mika Immonen

Francisco Bustamante

Ralf Souquet

Johnny Archer

Allison Fisher

Thorsten Hohmann

Karen Corr

Corey Deuel

Niels Feijen

Alex Pagulayan

Rodney Morris

Earl Strickland

Dennis Orcollo

Marlon Manalo

Shane Van Boening

Ronnie Alcano

Charlie Williams

Jose Parica

Jeanette Lee

Ga-Young Kim

Darren Appleton

Gabe Owen

John Schmidt

Daryl Peach

Mike Sigel

Kelly Fisher

Fong-Pang Chao

Jeremy Jones


Thomas Engert
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I'll take on the first 3 since I'm at work hahahaa. Stand by
 
Maybe after the list is completed by a few people, we can see what breeds a better pool player.
The drop, or no drop.
 
Efren: yes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6sKPP9nuis

Mika: yes (@ 1:30 totally obvious)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3U_Rdxy8p4

Busty: yes (the first 3 mins of this video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VGfvaeQJx0&feature=related

Souquet: yes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGSy85Chc3Q

Ronnie O'Sullivan: yes (5:25)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akZnBcnKU-Q

Corey Deuel: yes (0:50, 1:45)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGRhT6DSGo&feature=related

Mike Sigel: yes, see post #1

Thorsten Hohmann: yes, (1:40)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTWvb_v55xc

Jim Rempe: yes, (0:40)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXPsXCACS14&feature=related


OK, I'm done for now. I honestly think every single pro-tour-level player drops their elbow. I feel like a fool even posting these youtube clips since everyone I look at someone is throwing their elbow.

Can anyone find ONE video of a player who doesn't, ever?
 
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Ok. I edited it to reflect.
So far, that's the top 4 money earners of the past decade that drop.

O'Sullivan isn't on the list cause he's a snooker player, but he's probably won WAY more then Efren, so we will add him as well.
 
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So assuming that the majority of world class players are doing it, how can anyone argue against it or when teaching, discouraging someone from doing it?

If elbow dropping is what it takes to be a champion... :rolleyes:
 
SUPERSTAR said:
So assuming that the majority of world class players are doing it, how can anyone argue against it or when teaching, discouraging someone from doing it?

If elbow dropping is what it takes to be a champion... :rolleyes:
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I shoot mostly with a pendulum... as do most of these pros. However, sometimes the move is to send the arm through (as these pros demonstrate in their execution).

It'd be wise to refrain from preaching against it for anyone beyond an intermediate player, imo. It's not a majority, it's a HUGE majority of pros drop. I couldn't find 1 pro who didn't on youtube.... so I quit looking.
 
Mika Immonen's locomotive stroke is too unique/special to categorize as "elbow drop"

SUPERSTAR said:
Maybe someone wants to go through the just posted all time AZ money list of players, and add if they are an elbow dropper or not, and if they do elbow drop, is it before contact with the cue ball, or after contact with the cue ball.
Here is the list.

[...]
Mika Immonen YES
[...]
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Folks:

A couple of things about this list:

1. I don't think Mika should even be included on this list, precisely because his stroke is so unique and personal. Mika has what's called a "locomotive stroke," in that the whole arm is in motion, almost continuously, in a circular/elliptical motion just like the wheel pushrods on an old steam locomotive. His is not an issue of whether he drops the elbow, but rather what his whole arm is doing throughout the stroke. It's not like he starts out with what looks like a pendulum stroke and then later drops his elbow during delivery of the cue -- which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the main item under contention in this thread?

2. I don't think it'd be fair to scrutinize every single video of a pro playing, to find just one instance where he/she dropped his/her elbow, and then go "AHA!! So-and-so 'is' an elbow dropper!" I'm not saying that's what's going on with the "yes/no" answers next to each pro's name in the list, but I just want to warn folks not to make this mistake. I think anyone/everyone, at one point or another every so many racks, drops his/her elbow. Heck, even *I* drop my elbow on rare occasions, and not during the type of shot one would expect (e.g. power draw shots). Nope, I tend to do this on very SOFT shots, where I'm lagging the cue ball to its destination. I guess it stems from relaxing the arm to the point where I can "feel" the motion of the cue best, to properly judge just the minimal amount of power needed to lag the cue ball to its destination. The trick to this type of categorization, is what does his/her elbow do during the 99% of the time he/she is at the table? IMHO, of course.

Just my $0.02 that I picked up off the floor. :)
-Sean
 
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