More elbow dropping nonsense

Neil said:
Oh, come on Russ, are you really going to argue that a non-properly executed pendulum stroke is not as accurate as a properly executed elbow drop stroke?? O.K., I'll take the other side- a non-properly executed elbow drop is not as accurate as a properly executed pendulum stroke.
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Neil,

When you say "non-properly executed pendulum stroke", what do you mean? I thought Russ had a good point in saying that if your bridge length were to change, it would affect tip placement. I don't know that this is the case however. Russ, check it out: if I make a 5" bridge or a 10" bridge, there is still one thing I need to do when setting up for a pendulum stroke. I need to make sure my tip is at the cue ball when my forearm is hanging straight down. In this regard, the bridge length shouldn't make any difference. Neil, I didn't hear anything in Russ's post that would imply anything was improperly executed. Unless we take him to mean that the upper arm is made to be straight up and down for a specific bridge length and then *not changed* to accommodate other bridge lengths. Is this what you were criticizing?

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT
 
tap, tap, tap Steve!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

pooltchr said:
Exactly! One key ingredient to a properly executed pendilum stroke is to get into the proper set position. Bridge distance has nothing to do with the set, but having the tip nearly at the cue ball while the grip hand is 90 degrees from the cue has everything to do with it.
In order to have the consistent stroke, you must first be consistent with where you start.

Steve
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Russ Chewning said:
No. Quit putting words in my mouth.

I am arguing that the elbow drop stroke is designed to hit the same CB aim point no matter where in the stroke the CB is placed.

The pendulum stroke is not.

Therefore, if one errors in bridge placement, the pendulum stroker will not hit the CB where he wishes.

This seems to add a level of complication to the pendulum stroke, whereas its' fanboyz like to advocate how the pendulum stroke is so much simpler.

:D :D :D

Russ
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Russ,

I hear what you are saying and I was thinking the exact same thing. However, this is not quite right I realized. One of the critical steps in setting up for a pinned elbow shot is making sure that your stroking forearm is perpendicular to the floor at the point the tip contacts the cue ball. Thus if you "miscalculate" on your bridge length, this doesn't matter at all. You simply move your arm on the back of the stick until it is perpendicular. Then your tip should hit the exact spot you are cued up for. However, this does introduce the new variable of *how accurately one can correctly estimate how perpendicular their arm is.* Luckily, we have gravity and the sensations it causes in our stroking arm to help confirm this. Still, I agree that this is a variable that certainly leaves room for error. This particular error is minimized or absent in the elbow drop stroke, but at the cost of other variables which must be taken into account.

KMRUNOUT
 
I now think, in agreement with Hu, that there are substantially more mechanics involved in a stroke, of whatever type, than is often given credence. The shoulder is a lever (ala Colin’s breaking technique), the elbow is a hinge and both must be kept in line. The grip which may or not include the ring finger and the little finger can contribute to a twisting motion during the follow through. The wrist articulation is certainly important because it contributes to defeating the rising arc of a pendulum and the contribution to hand twisting that would be normal as the arm is extended

One of the things I was interested in when watching Hall and Stickland was how they used the ring and little fingers at and following contact. Apparently both players use all of their fingers during the completion of the shot. Perhaps they do this for increased control but it also requires keeping the wrist from turning.

In prior comments I have noted that several pros have an odd looking kink in their wrist on the break shot. Apparently, this forward bending of the wrist is what keeps it straight when a combined pendulum – piston stroke is used.

This sure has messed up my stroke for the day but has lead to several interesting things to try.
 
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KMRUNOUT said:
Neil,

I'm not so sure that the goal of "jumping up" is to increase the amount of follow through. Long ago when learning how to power break, I used to think that power was somehow related to length of follow through. Now I know that this is not the case. I think the principle reason people lift up their upper bodies when breaking is to allow the upper arm to get into the stroke. Incorporating the power of the shoulder can greatly increase the power on the break. However, swinging a heavy object (an arm holding a cue stick) around your body is difficult without allowing your body to move off line. This is where the "leg kick" comes in. I hear lots of people say that pros like say Bustamante kick their leg back to get more power. I don't think that is true. I think what is happening is that the leg is serving as a counterbalance. When you swing the arm, you are forcing a bit of rotational force on your spine, and the momentum of your arm wants to either rotate your shoulders or pull your upper body off line in the direction of your shooting arm. By kicking the leg back, there is now a counter-force rotating the spine in the opposite direction. These two forces cancel out to allow the upper body to remain stationary and not pull off line. This has been my own observation.

KMRUNOUT
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If you review Colin Colensco's video on the power break. This is exactly what he says and does. here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U
 
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Neil said:
I think we are saying the same thing here. Just worded differently, yours probably better than mine. What I am getting at, is when extreme force is needed, such as the break, those that drop the elbow tend to do it like they were punching someone underhanded. We have all heard, and believe, (because it is true) that you want to punch, or in our case, hit, through the target, not at it.
Hence, the elbow drop. Without the pendulum stroke, which is different than you would hit someone, you naturally move the elbow to extend the stroke. When a lot of force is used, and you are bent down, and you are dropping your elbow, if your body doesn't raise up, you are going to smack the table pretty good. This is because the more force used, the farther you tend to followthrough. It's just easier to raise the body to allow for room for full extentsion of your arm. The extension is needed because there is nothing to stop your arm but the actual limit of it. The less speed, the less your arm needs to extend, and the less your elbow drops.

The pendulum stroke just changes where your arm ends up. And, no, your chest doesn't start to hurt from stopping your stroke when practicing break shots.;)
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Neil,

Ok I think we are on the same page.

KMRUNOUT
 
Neil said:
Hu, I really don't understand where you are getting this from???? I'm sure everyone has seen the 'toy' with the balls on a string. You drop one, and it hits the other, knocking the end one out and back to keep repeating the process. That is a pendulum stroke. It hits the exact same spot every single time. No compensations required. Nice and simple. Set up properly, the pendulum stroke is the same thing. I just don't understand why people can't seem to grasp that.??
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Here it is:


Enjoy,
Dave
 
JoeW said:
If you review Colin Colensco's video on the power break. This is exactly what he says and does. here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U
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Thanks Joe, I've watched that video many times. While I think Colin offers some good advice, almost exclusively aimed at increasing power, I would not personally try to emulate his break. If you notice in his video, his cueball is all over the place. I don't care if he can hit it 80 mph. I want MUCH more cueball control than that on the break. Some of the best breakers I can think of in terms of cueball control are Ralf Souquet, Chia Ching Wu, Tony Drago believe it or not, and also Jasmine Ouschan. Interesting, because she literally has her feet off the ground, and is clearly maxing out the power in that little body (oh God....that little body...). Yet she hits the rack with amazing control. Another guy from a ways back that had a totally crazy technique (arms everywhere, jumping, etc.) but astonishing cueball control was Tony Ellin.

Edit: Oh yeah, Bustamante has actually brought his cueball control right up there too. Man can that guy break!
Anyway, thanks for the link!

KMRUNOUT
 
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KMRUNOUT said:
dr_dave said:
We also need to be more clear by what we mean by elbow drop. Early in the thread, it seemed people were referring to elbow drop only after CB contact. In this case, the stroke before contact is a pure pendulum stroke with a "pinned" elbow. It seems that most people agree that not dropping the elbow before CB contact is probably a good thing for most people, in general. However, there are some (maybe even many) pros who do drop their elbow before CB contact on most shots.

I think the pendulum-stroke instructors encourage the still elbow during the entire stroke (both before and after CB contact) because some people might not be consistent with when and how much they drop their elbow. This obviously doesn't apply to pros who have mastered their own individual type of stroke.

When discussing "stroke shots" or "power shots" or the break, the elbow drop being discussed seems to be mostly before CB contact. And it seems most people agree this can help most people create more cue speed more easily. And it also might involve less strain and fatigue.

For people who don't drop their elbow until after CB contact, the stroke into the CB is exactly the same as with a pure pendulum stroke, so both methods share any benefits up to this point: Mainly, if the elbow is still before contact, the tip hits the CB at the exact spot where you were aiming in the set position, with the cue at the same angle (which is fairly constant over a fairly large distance at the bottom of the pendulum motion). For people who drop their elbow before CB contact (intentionally or not), their shoulder and elbow motion (and body motion, if there is any) must be coordinated and timed properly to hit the desired point on the CB. Some people think this is more difficult to master, especially for a beginner. I agree with them. However, many people seem to like the straighter (piston-like), smoother, longer, and unobstructed follow-through that the post-CB-contact elbow-drop allows, especially with shots requiring more cue speed.

Regards,
Dave
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Well expressed Doc.
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Thanks. I was hoping the post might help focus the debate, but that was an unrealistic dream. :cool:

Regards,
Dave
 
JoeW said:
I suspect there is another alternative here. After watching the 1988 video of Hall and Strickland (referenced above) it would appear that at times the pendulum can be combined with a piston stroke.
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This is sometimes called a "J" stroke, where the grip hand follows the pendulum motion on the back swing and forward swing into the ball, and then the grip moves in a straight line (with elbow drop) after CB contact and during follow through. If you trace out the path of the grip hand, it looks like a "J" turned sideways. This is what I have been referring to as "dropping the elbow after CB contact."

BTW, Bob Jewett has two excellent articles with good illustrations and discussion concerning elbow drop and the different types of strokes. Here they are:


FYI, I have links to these and many other stroke-related resources here:


JoeW said:
I think the pendulum establishes and keeps the stick on line. The piston at or just before contact increases follow through. I think we would have to view one of your great videos to determine if the contact was longer with a pendulum that converted to a piston at (or just before) contact. My suspicion, given that these players seem to use some form of piston stroke at and following contact on many shots is that they have learned there is "better" (more extended?) contact with a pendulum converted to a piston as needed.
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I have done tests with different types of strokes, and the tip contact time does not change with the type of stroke, partly because the grip hand flesh is so flexible compared to the tip, and partly because the CB leaves the tip at a speed faster than the cue. All that really matters concerning what happens to the CB is the tip contact point, cue direction, and cue speed at impact, and this stuff is determined by what we do with the cue before CB contact, not during or after. Nothing we can try to do during the 0.001 second of tip contact can have any direct effect. For more info (and some video links), see:


Regards,
Dave
 
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Russ Chewning said:
I see the debate goes on.

I'll put my two cents in.

As has been noted before, the elbow drop keeps the cue tip on the same plane through 95% of the stroke. Which means that "if properly executed", one will hit where they intend on the vertical axis.

With a pinned elbow, one can theoretically drop into one's stance one with the bridge hand one half inch too close to the CB, and not be hitting where they intend to.

As a pendulumn stroke incorporates a parabolic motion, ANY inaccuracy (closer or farther away) in the placement of the bridge hand leads to hitting the wrong point on the CB. This is not so for a properly executed dropped elbow stroke.

Russ
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"Must spread rep around before giving more to Russ"

This post is 100% correct. The primary reason the elbow drop is a part of so many top players games is because it allows the cuetip to follow through on the same plane "through" the shot while the tip on a properly stroked pendulum stroke MUST follow a parabolic path with the tip moving towards the cloth as you follow through the cueball.

This requires a sense of "timing" or as Russ put it an exact setup on the cueball with a precise bridge length to get the proper contact point with regards to the vertical axis.

The pendulum stroke REQUIRES that the stroking hand take it's own parobolic path, on the backstroke it is drawn up to a higher point causing the cue tip to move downward due to the fixed axis of the bridge hand. As you stroke through the ball with the pendulum stroke the cuetip then comes up initially until the stroking arm axis is at 90 degrees, the point of contact, and then the tip begins to move on a downward path again as the stroking hand moves up on the follow through to the finish.

What the elbow drop does is add an extra axis that removes the second half of the parabolic path of the cuetip and instead makes the cue tip follow through along a straight path through the cueball and beyond. The elbow drop exists in many people's stroke because it is critical to keeping the path of the cuetip on a straight, instead of parabolic path as one follows through on the stroke. The dropping of the elbow counteracts the vertical rise of the stroking hand as the angle on the stroking arm becomes more acute and in doing so the cuetip does not see the latter part of the stroke having a parabolic path on the cuetip. In practice the elbow drop stops the vertical rise of the stroking hand and thus stops the vertical drop of the cuetip on the stroke.



Pendulum stroke cue tip path

.......................................>>>>>>>>>>><(contact point)
....................>>>>>>>>>>......................>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>.......................................................>>>>>>>>>(downward parabolic cuetip path after contact)


Elbow drop cue tip path

.......................................>>>>>>>>>>>(contact point)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(straight cuetip path during and after contact)
....................>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>

Thats the best I can graphically do it without a scanner and a pencil drawn diagram. That second half of the stroke and the consistent path is why many people have an elbow drop and why it is effective for the people that use it.

I know some people on this thread are either A) too stubborn or B) finacially and professionally commited to the pendulum stroke.

But the above provides a strong reason the elbow drop is such a common thing in cue sports at the top levels.
 
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arcs and straight lines

Neil said:
Hu, I really don't understand where you are getting this from???? I'm sure everyone has seen the 'toy' with the balls on a string. You drop one, and it hits the other, knocking the end one out and back to keep repeating the process. That is a pendulum stroke. It hits the exact same spot every single time. No compensations required. Nice and simple. Set up properly, the pendulum stroke is the same thing. I just don't understand why people can't seem to grasp that.??
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Neil,

A pendulum is simply a single weight hanging from a single pivot point or in the case of the balls you mention multiple pivot points aligned at a right angle to the pendulum's path. However in pool we then attach a straight shaft moving through a fixed point(the bridge) to the pendulum. That is where things get messy, especially when we want one end of that straight shaft to travel back and forth in a straight line over ten inches or so. the pendulum stroke is an arc, a section of a circle, so basically we are converting a rotary motion into a linear motion. Your example would be like holding the cue ball in our hand and hitting the object ball with a pendulum stroke, something that should work quite well without compensations at least from a mechanical standpoint.

While few people using a pendulum stroke move the perpendicular point all the way to the center of their stroke, most do move it well behind the contact point a compensation in itself that lessens the amount of other compensations needed. Do note from my last post that the pendulum can work without compensation as long as the shooter doesn't insist on a level stroke back and forth. You and I are in agreement that a perfect pendulum will cause the tip of a cue stick to strike the cue ball in the same place over and over. The minor cost is that the cue tip will have a good bit of up and down travel over the length of the stroke with no compensations just as the ball you pulled back rose a lot when you pulled it back on your toy. This doesn't hurt a thing in terms of function as long as the tip stays clear of the table but it is against the generally accepted dogma of the tip traveling a level path.

As long as you address the ball where you want to hit it and have the cue tip very close to the cue when addressing the ball the pendulum will work as perfectly as anything else at least within the limits of human abilities. However when you want a level stroke path and a pendulum stroke then compensations are required and many of the compensations used do require very precise timing.

Many people use the shoulder to compensate giving the pendulum the same basic flaw that many pendulum advocates damn the elbow drop before cue ball contact for. Others use the wrist which typically requires very precise timing. Modifying the grip also works but once again has to be a precisely timed move to contact your address point. If you do not consistently apply whatever compensations you use every shot then you can not consistently keep the cue stick fairly level during the stroke and hit the spot you wish to on the cue ball.

Many strokes can work and so far it seems to me that none of them are vastly superior to any other. Some strokes have mechanical advantages, some have other advantages, all are a compromise.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
As long as you address the ball where you want to hit it and have the cue tip very close to the cue when addressing the ball the pendulum will work as perfectly as anything else at least within the limits of human abilities. However when you want a level stroke path and a pendulum stroke then compensations are required and many of the compensations used do require very precise timing.
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With a pendulum stroke, assuming the forearm is close to perpendicular to the cue at impact, the tip is moving very straight close to the CB. The tip moves up and down during the backstroke and follow through, but the motion is quite level close to the CB and during the extremely short contact distance and time. See the illustrations in Bob's first elbow article for more info:


Regards,
Dave
 
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