Mosconi cup 2015 2016

[lfigueroa]

Lou;

Is Mark from the St Louis area, or was he at some time?

best,
brian kc

Brian, my recollection s that Mark moved to St. Louis area around the late 90's when I started playing pool again. I think he was from the four corners area.

Over the last 15 years Mark and I have played many times but I would call us acquaintances more than friends. For many years I only saw him once a year at the DCC.

But in the time I have known him he has earned my respect and admiration. His reputation throughout the greater St. Louis area, if not nationally, is beyond reproach. He is one of the few truly honorable guys in pool.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Ky Boy]

I know that very well. BUT I've known MW for over 15 years. He doesn't operate that way and making the assumption he does, with zero evidence, is uncalled for. Unless you have some kind of proof, rather than just your speculation, I believe you could try giving the man the benefit of the doubt based upon what those that do know him have to say.

Lou Figueroa

Jaden didn't say that Mark operates that way he only cited that anytime one person operates that way it could be seen as the good ole boy mentality.

Checks and balances are always good for transparency Lou and especially the MC qualifying criteria should be laid out for everyone to see.

If by chance Mike Dechaine wins DCC 9 Ball this year and finishes top 5 in all events until next MC is it safe to say he would be on next year's team?

How do you know you have done enough throughout the year to at least know you're in contention for a spot?

Lacking a system with criteria certainly invokes the good ole boy mentality whether it's employed or not. Having a system in place leaves no question about selections now and in the future.


Gary

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Brian, my recollection s that Mark moved to St. Louis area around the late 90's when I started playing pool again. I think he was from the four corners area.

Over the last 15 years Mark and I have played many times but I would call us acquaintances more than friends. For many years I only saw him once a year at the DCC.

But in the time I have known him he has earned my respect and admiration. His reputation throughout the greater St. Louis area, if not nationally, is beyond reproach. He is one of the few truly honorable guys in pool.

Lou Figueroa

There have been a few people for whom I have much respect, yourself included, who have chimed in saying Mark's rep is beyond reproach. No reason to feel otherwise.

When someone has a long track record of doing good, like Mark does, then, appropriately, we tend to believe in them and the things they do.

However, I still don't think it's unreasonable for people to question certain decisions when there isn't transparency, especially when it comes to sports. It's part of our American culture to moan and groan over our teams.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up that the two Justins who made it on to play for Team USA may have been given special consideration since they were also from the St. Louis area. Mark's homeboys.

Even when there were much better choices, statistically speaking, based on merit over the year.

I sure would like to know what the formula was for inclusion on Team USA this year.

I like transparency. :wink:

best,
brian kc

 

[lfigueroa]

Jaden didn't say that Mark operates that way he only cited that anytime one person operates that way it could be seen as the good ole boy mentality.

Checks and balances are always good for transparency Lou and especially the MC qualifying criteria should be laid out for everyone to see.

If by chance Mike Dechaine wins DCC 9 Ball this year and finishes top 5 in all events until next MC is it safe to say he would be on next year's team?

How do you know you have done enough throughout the year to at least know you're in contention for a spot?

Lacking a system with criteria certainly invokes the good ole boy mentality whether it's employed or not. Having a system in place leaves no question about selections now and in the future.


Gary

Gary, here is what he said and I took issue with:

"You have to be a part of HIS good ole boy network or you're out, or at least the potential for that to be the case is there."

Clearly he is insinuating something is going on.

And a lack of transparency does not invoke anything, particularly when it's someone like MW. Someone else, with a history, OK, maybe.

Lou Figueroa

 

[watchez]

Jaden didn't say that Mark operates that way he only cited that anytime one person operates that way it could be seen as the good ole boy mentality.

Checks and balances are always good for transparency Lou and especially the MC qualifying criteria should be laid out for everyone to see.

If by chance Mike Dechaine wins DCC 9 Ball this year and finishes top 5 in all events until next MC is it safe to say he would be on next year's team?

How do you know you have done enough throughout the year to at least know you're in contention for a spot?

Lacking a system with criteria certainly invokes the good ole boy mentality whether it's employed or not. Having a system in place leaves no question about selections now and in the future.


Gary

Why should they be laid out for everyone to see --- were they laid out the previous 20+ years of the event?

Why is Mark Wilson's picks up to more scrutiny by you and others than was the case in previous years?

Guess what -- Mike Dechaine was the second best American pool player in 2013 as well and didn't make the team. Not to single Mike out but that is an easy example.

And again - this is a TEAM COMPETITION. Sometimes the best players don't make the best teammates. That is a decision the captain gets to make.

For example - RG3 in football. He has seemed to lost his way in his mechanics, etc. but the Redskins are going to give up on him (after trading away three #1 round picks and a second round pick for him and investing millions of dollars). Why? Because he is also a terrible locker room guy and has no respect from his teammates.

 

[itsfroze]

=============

 

[watchez]

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up that the two Justins who made it on to play for Team USA may have been given special consideration since they were also from the St. Louis area. Mark's homeboys.

Even when there were much better choices, statistically speaking, based on merit over the year. I sure would like to know what the formula was for inclusion on Team USA this year.

I like transparency. :wink:

best,
brian kc

Name a US player besides SVB and Mike Dechaine that had a better statiscal year than Justin Bergman, in terms of quality wins over tough opponents and success overall in tournaments.

And to use your exact words -- much better

 

[jmhanson_21]

The European system is a meritocracy and the criteria for making the team were announced in the winter by Johan. If memory serves, top ranked Eurotour player Mark Gray and top WPA ranked player Niels Feijen were assured spots based on competitive performance, and Ekonomopoulos locked up his spot when he came third at the US Open. Appleton and Boyes got wild cards, I suspect due to their impressive win at the World Cup of Pool. Everybody who got a spot on the 2014 Team Europe earned it through competitive excellence in 2014.

Your second and third questions are not questions of any import, and certainly not questions of any relevance to the European system, a system that has been working for many years now. If you are asking how anybody would have known that Shane would go winless in singles in consecutive Mosconi Cups, I say it's trivial. We need to send our best and even though Shane has a bad history in the Mosconi, his competitive credentials away from the Mosconi say he must be on the team.

The European system ensures the participation of players in form, the US selection system this year did not. Europeans knew what they had to do and in which events they'd have to participate in to earn their way onto the team, Americans did not.

As an example, an American coach could announce that he'd pick his top three based on performance at Derby City 9-ball, Super Billiards Expo, Turning Stone, Steinway and the US Open. After that, he'd pick two wild cards, also performance based. That would have made our system more comparable to the European system.

As long as the European system is a meritocracy and ours is not, we can expect to be less ready for battle than them every single year.

This is a great post! Your reasoning is very sound, and you address all previous concerns. I love the idea, and I truly hope Mark Wilson gives it some thought. It would be great to hear him announce that those major tournament you listed (and possibly some others) will be used to help rank the players, and the top 3 players will have the ability to EARN their spots. If the team ends up really young, he can use his 2 wild cards to find some experience or create chemistry, or he can award a spot to a player who played really well all year, but had some tough draws. Either way, that would certainly increase the attention given to those tournaments and drastically reduce the complaining, both from the players and the fans. Please consider this, Mark.

 

[krupa]

Jaden didn't say that Mark operates that way he only cited that anytime one person operates that way it could be seen as the good ole boy mentality.

Checks and balances are always good for transparency Lou and especially the MC qualifying criteria should be laid out for everyone to see.

If by chance Mike Dechaine wins DCC 9 Ball this year and finishes top 5 in all events until next MC is it safe to say he would be on next year's team?

How do you know you have done enough throughout the year to at least know you're in contention for a spot?

Lacking a system with criteria certainly invokes the good ole boy mentality whether it's employed or not. Having a system in place leaves no question about selections now and in the future.


Gary

Why should they be laid out for everyone to see --- were they laid out the previous 20+ years of the event?

Why is Mark Wilson's picks up to more scrutiny by you and others than was the case in previous years?

Guess what -- Mike Dechaine was the second best American pool player in 2013 as well and didn't make the team. Not to single Mike out but that is an easy example.

And again - this is a TEAM COMPETITION. Sometimes the best players don't make the best teammates. That is a decision the captain gets to make.

For example - RG3 in football. He has seemed to lost his way in his mechanics, etc. but the Redskins are going to give up on him (after trading away three #1 round picks and a second round pick for him and investing millions of dollars). Why? Because he is also a terrible locker room guy and has no respect from his teammates.

I also wonder why some people feel the selection criteria needs to be transparent. The MC is an exhibition event put on by a private, foreign company. They can do what they want and choose who they want in order to put together the best (i.e., most profitable) event possible.

 

[lfigueroa]

There have been a few people for whom I have much respect, yourself included, who have chimed in saying Mark's rep is beyond reproach. No reason to feel otherwise.

When someone has a long track record of doing good, like Mark does, then, appropriately, we tend to believe in them and the things they do.

However, I still don't think it's unreasonable for people to question certain decisions when there isn't transparency, especially when it comes to sports. It's part of our American culture to moan and groan over our teams.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up that the two Justins who made it on to play for Team USA may have been given special consideration since they were also from the St. Louis area. Mark's homeboys.

Even when there were much better choices, statistically speaking, based on merit for the year.

I sure would like to know what the formula was for inclusion on Team USA this year.

I like transparency. :wink:

best,
brian kc

Questioning is fine as long as it doesn't unreasonably impugn someone's reputation without justification. And the issue of the Justins has been brought already several times and I think that in the case of JB, MW is on record as having said he looked at him closer and harder because he was aware people knew their history.

Brian, just like you here are a lot of things that go on that I'd like to know the reason for. But I realize that just because I want to know it doesn't mean someone's got to explain them to me.

Beside, no matter what the reason, what the criteria, someone would find fault with it, someone would bee-atch and moan about how unfair it is. I personally believe Mark doesn't owe us an explanation and starting down that path is probably ill-advised. Let's face it, no matter how pure the intentions or stringent and clear cut the requirements for making the team next year, it's gonna piss off someone.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Ky Boy]

Gary, here is what he said and I took issue with:

"You have to be a part of HIS good ole boy network or you're out, or at least the potential for that to be the case is there."

Clearly he is insinuating something is going on.

And a lack of transparency does not invoke anything, particularly when it's someone like MW. Someone else, with a history, OK, maybe.

Lou Figueroa

Sorry Lou...I disagree! A lack of transparency can certainly invoke feelings of partialness as we have witnessed this year with the "selection process". There is no doubt in my mind Mark hand picked this years team based on his opinion of each player's attitude, personality, and their ability to be competitive.

For most people, including myself, I was cool with that as a fan and was glad to see the team mixed up. For those who did take exception, they are discontent about the process and it will certainly spread if the team is deemed as hand picked and fails in the coming MC events to be competitive and/or win the Cup.

As you know, if they win it's all good! But if they lose, then all is brought under a microscope. Transparency helps Mark in the long run and continues to keep his sterling integrity intact. It also gives up and coming players goals that will help bring out the best in each player wanting to secure an eventual MC spot. So many more positives by having a process than by not!


Gary

 

[wrldpro]

Schmidt was a terrible choice. He dragged down other team members with his sarcasm and negativity.

All this talk about projecting the proper image. After day 2 all l I saw out of the Americans was fear and doubt. They wilted. I'd rather them get angry and show some heart.

Exactly right. I couldn't understand why he was chosen to the Mosconi cup team either instead of Oscar, Sossei or Shuff which are great playing current players that went to every tournament they could all year long and played their hearts out just to be offered a consolation prize of 10 % of the other players checks and be cheerleaders.
Schmidts past Mosconi cup record was 1 Win and 4 losses and at least he was able to sneak out a dead 3-9 combo to duplicate his record again and go 1-4 this year(1-5 if you count the team match).
As far as his Sarcasm and negativity just look at his TAR match with Corey and you would see the same situation except for there was a lot of sharking involved also. So the only thing I geuss is Coach Wilson didn't do enough studying or Schmidt or they are just that good of friends.
The public and Matchroom sports (Barry Hearn) got to see Schmidts play and attitude with their own eyes. Im sure its not the image they want anymore so Schmidt wont be on anymore Mosconi teams unless Wilson would want to lose again and have all the rest of the team stressed out again when Schmidt is around them while they are playing.

 

[BRussell]

I don't really understand the argument here. Do football, basketball, and baseball coaches have transparency when they pick their teams? Do they just take from a list of players ranked by wins, or do they use more subjective factors like teamwork? And how do you even have transparency for such factors?

I also don't understand the corruption or "good old boy" argument. Mark Wilson, as the coach, probably has more of an investment in winning than anyone - what interest does he have in using any criteria other than picking players that he believes have the best chance of winning and promoting the sport? What possible conflict of interest is there? There are no kickbacks from cronies or any issues like that. Again, think about how major sports coaches pick their teams - their job is to pick the best team, and noone talks about conflicts of interest because there aren't any.

 

[itsfroze]

=============

 

[Ky Boy]

Why should they be laid out for everyone to see --- were they laid out the previous 20+ years of the event?

Why is Mark Wilson's picks up to more scrutiny by you and others than was the case in previous years?

Guess what -- Mike Dechaine was the second best American pool player in 2013 as well and didn't make the team. Not to single Mike out but that is an easy example.

And again - this is a TEAM COMPETITION. Sometimes the best players don't make the best teammates. That is a decision the captain gets to make.

For example - RG3 in football. He has seemed to lost his way in his mechanics, etc. but the Redskins are going to give up on him (after trading away three #1 round picks and a second round pick for him and investing millions of dollars). Why? Because he is also a terrible locker room guy and has no respect from his teammates.

It should be laid out for EVERYONE to see, especially players. With each event they compete, they should know if their performance helped or hurt their chances of being selected to the MC. Isn't that what it's all about?

Regarding Mike, I addressed that in another post. Mark hand picked his team this year based on attitude, personality, and overall competitiveness. Nothing more, nothing less. And I along with everyone else was pretty cool with that for the most part. I only say to make it public and transparent for the future.

And your Mike to RG3 comparison, what's the trade-off for Mark? Ability vs. attitude. Where do you draw the line and decide to work with someone? I think Mark and Mike have a lot to offer each other. Mike has the talent and Mark is a coach with an esteemed reputation.

EDIT TO ADD: How many threads have been on AZ about setting standards across pool from appropriate attire, to rules, to how tourneys should be run etc. We've seen it all for the most part. So what's the problem with asking that a standard be set to the MC selection process? I don't know Mark personally but from what I see and read here he is a gentleman with tons of integrity who I would think would want the selection criteria made public. Mark may not always be the MC Captain and what an easy way to leave a lasting, indelible mark on the selection process. One that could help pave the way for something even greater.


Gary

 

[BRussell]

Remember that the first Euro player to make it on transparent statistical grounds was Gray, who I believe turned out to be their weakest performer. And SVB was our top player statistically but also turned out to be our weakest. Justin Hall certainly wouldn't have made it going on mechanical, numeric rankings, but was far and away the top US performer.

 

[BRussell]

The players and the fans should know what it takes for a player to make the MC team.
It creates more fan interest, because the fans can follow a player to see how they're doing
in their quest to make the MC team,

I can understand that. But that's a different argument from the one most people are making here, that 1) there's some kind of corruption or 2) non-optimal selection.

but the players also deserve to know what it takes to make
the team. The Euro's have a system that's laid out ahead of time and so should we. Period.

Oh shit you used the dreaded Period. That ends the argument right there.

 

[watchez]

It should be laid out for EVERYONE to see, especially players. With each event they compete, they should know if their performance helped or hurt their chances of being selected to the MC. Isn't that what it's all about?

Regarding Mike, I addressed that in another post. Mark hand picked his team this year based on attitude, personality, and overall competitiveness. Nothing more, nothing less. And I along with everyone else was pretty cool with that for the most part. I only say to make it public and transparent for the future.

And your Mike to RG3 comparison, what's the trade-off for Mark? Ability vs. attitude. Where do you draw the line and decide to work with someone? I think Mark and Mike have a lot to offer each other. Mike has the talent and Mark is a coach with an esteemed reputation.


Gary

You should blow your trumpet at the challenge events they hold in New Jersey.

Or the BCAPL events in July.

You want transparency. I'd like some consistency in the arguments I read.

RG3 has a lot to offer as well. Maybe you don't watch football but his first year in the league, he was one of the best QBs, even as a rookie. Again, he won't be on the team next year. Jim Harbaugh won't be the coach of San Fran either, even after he took them to 3 straight NFC title games and one Super Bowl.

Also, and I posted this previously, Matchroom still has a say in how things are done for the Mosconi Cup. As the people putting up the cash, perhaps (read into this as you like) they felt that some players with major titles behind their name were more of a draw then a lesser known player that had a better 2014. So you think that Mark Wilson got to pick all his players --- well maybe he didn't. Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

 

[Ky Boy]

You should blow your trumpet at the challenge events they hold in New Jersey.

Or the BCAPL events in July.

You want transparency. I'd like some consistency in the arguments I read.

RG3 has a lot to offer as well. Maybe you don't watch football but his first year in the league, he was one of the best QBs, even as a rookie. Again, he won't be on the team next year. Jim Harbaugh won't be the coach of San Fran either, even after he took them to 3 straight NFC title games and one Super Bowl.

Also, and I posted this previously, Matchroom still has a say in how things are done for the Mosconi Cup. As the people putting up the cash, perhaps (read into this as you like) they felt that some players with major titles behind their name were more of a draw then a lesser known player that had a better 2014. So you think that Mark Wilson got to pick all his players --- well maybe he didn't. Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

You keep saying that and that's fine. But you don't offer much of anything other than to retort what someone posts that you don't like. And you're right, I don't watch much football.

I get that Mark and Justin are your personal friends but I'm not attacking them.

Do you honestly feel as though the challenge events equate to the Mosconi Cup? Come on man...

With that said, are you saying Mark didn't hand pick his team? Or did Matchroom pick 8 players and let Mark choose from there?

Teach us...

 

[SmoothStroke]

For players to have to buy into Mark Wilsons system of sit down and shut up, you talk when I tell you to, if I want your opinion I will give to you, is bullshit.

These are not 5 yr olds you are teaching a lesson , they are grown adults. Treat them as such.

Enter in a contract, if you as a member of this team should act like an Ahole you forfeit all money to be received . You will reimburse whomever for any money already received, (Expenses) Never to be a member of this team again, you will be left in an alley in Blackpool to get your brains kicked in, Then you go to Little Italy where my cousin Vito cuts off your fingers and we put it in the Pasta Fagioli and feed it to your family.....off with your head.

These guys earn $17.00 a year. Watch how fast they act like men when a nice paycheck is on the line, if they run their mouth goodbye paycheck.
Some of the body language and facial expressions I saw were ridiculous, they had loser written all over them. (Hello Coach, um Coach, do your job) If I had one of those boxing gloves that shoots out of the spring I would have been loading that thing up.


Mark Wilson dogged it as a coach, never moved out of his chair, maybe he had hemorrhoids.
I don't know what anybody else was watching, the only gel I saw was on a players head.
John Schmidt on the team? I will leave that one alone today

Field the best team
Sign the contract
Coach as a coach should
Let's Compete

Stop trying to change the world (edit it a little bit) stop trying to teach grown men lessons for a 5 year old……..LETS PLAY POOL