Mosconi Cup, Team USA, the real problem still exists.

Mosconi and Fats resembled the boxing model focusing on the characters of the game.

That's the best point of this thread!!!

Mosconi and Fats developed the ideal model for pool and no one "real eyesed" it. Their show on Wide World of Sports received some of the greatest ratings of that period, even above the "first tier" sports.

Speaking in terms of the "Game" having enough draw to create a loyal viewing audience is never going to happen. The reason I can say the with such certainly is it doesn't happen in any other sport or game. Football, Basketball, Wrestling, Hockey, Boxing and Golf have all had their periods of poor ratings. The common denominator that always saved them was PEOPLE (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Larry B., Mike T., Jimmy C. John M., IMG Group, Don King, Barry Bonds, etc.).

Without changing or tinkering with the Game its self. Pool in the early to mid 90s was getting 1 ratings (one million households) up against just about any other sport, even the super bowl pool did well. (I played a match in front of 2.8 Million Viewers).

This was the time that professional marketing agencies, professional acting coaches, and professional TV producers should have been brought into the picture. However, IT DID NOT HAPPEN and the ones "in control" thought they could do it themselves without the help of professional sources of talent. This failed then and it's failing now. It's NEVER been the Game's fault it's not received positive publicity and been popular (since The Color of Money).

I'll debate that with ANYBODY in a public forum. I know the inside story of what happened in those "key years" and it's not complicated what has to happen to turn this situation around. And like the saying goes "keep dong the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results". This is especially true and it's also a sign of the insanity of the methodology.

FIRST there must be an emotional attachment generated for the Players before the game will catch on. People lead the Games, the Games DO NOT lead the people. It's been true for other sports/games and it's true for Pocket Billiards.

I have been on the inside of Nascar, PGA, and NBA through agents, players, coaches and marketing experts and they all say the same thing. "Develop an emotional attachment between the players and the public and their fans enthusiastically watch them play".

That's the "filet mignon" of my previous metaphor and the hamburger is what we've done instead (the past 20 years). The good news is we have the ability to change, if we face reality and stop trying to make the cart draw the horse. The Professional Players MUST be put in a position to draw the Game into the public eye. There is no other way. imho



(((Satori))) said:
Mosconi and Fats resembled the boxing model. I also like what Big truck has been doing with his fight nights. I think he has the smarts to make something of that event and both he and the players will benefit. I think there are other ways for pool to be successful too but like you I agree that we can't try to be too squeaky clean. It is fake and boring and that is not pool imo. Let the characters shine. Tar did a good job of letting the players be theirselves but it can be taken to levels above and beyond imo. I'd love to see some of the behind the scenes action when the match was being made for example.
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.it's like blaming Steak for a town never having a great Steak House

It's funny to me when I hear people talk about the Game of pool not "being good enough to be successful"....Like I told my group ....it's not been the Game of pool's fault pocket billiards is not doing well....it's like blaming Steak for a town never having a great Steak House when all they've ever been served is hamburger. LoL 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Too bad there are no Minnesotas and mosconis aroumd any longer.

Oh well, I suppose you could always ask a couple of players to act out of character.
 
CJ Wiley said:
That's the best point of this thread!!!

Mosconi and Fats developed the ideal model for pool and no one "real eyesed" it. Their show on Wide World of Sports received some of the greatest ratings of that period, even above the "first tier" sports.

Speaking in terms of the "Game" having enough draw to create a loyal viewing audience is never going to happen. The reason I can say the with such certainly is it doesn't happen in any other sport or game. Football, Basketball, Wrestling, Hockey, Boxing and Golf have all had their periods of poor ratings. The common denominator that always saved them was PEOPLE (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Larry B., Mike T., Jimmy C. John M., IMG Group, Don King, Barry Bonds, etc.).

Without changing or tinkering with the Game its self. Pool in the early to mid 90s was getting 1 ratings (one million households) up against just about any other sport, even the super bowl pool did well. (I played a match in front of 2.8 Million Viewers).

This was the time that professional marketing agencies, professional acting coaches, and professional TV producers should have been brought into the picture. However, IT DID NOT HAPPEN and the ones "in control" thought they could do it themselves without the help of professional sources of talent. This failed then and it's failing now. It's NEVER been the Game's fault it's not received positive publicity and been popular (since The Color of Money).

I'll debate that with ANYBODY in a public forum. I know the inside story of what happened in those "key years" and it's not complicated what has to happen to turn this situation around. And like the saying goes "keep dong the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results". This is especially true and it's also a sign of the insanity of the methodology.

FIRST there must be an emotional attachment generated for the Players before the game will catch on. People lead the Games, the Games DO NOT lead the people. It's been true for other sports/games and it's true for Pocket Billiards.

I have been on the inside of Nascar, PGA, and NBA through agents, players, coaches and marketing experts and they all say the same thing. "Develop an emotional attachment between the players and the public and their fans enthusiastically watch them play".

That's the "filet mignon" of my previous metaphor and the hamburger is what we've done instead (the past 20 years). The good news is we have the ability to change, if we face reality and stop trying to make the cart draw the horse. The Professional Players MUST be put in a position to draw the Game into the public eye. There is no other way. imho
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It's not a chicken and Egg question we know what comes first
The Game ,, which yes in this case is the teacher ,, millions of Americans will tune in to the most watched Sport this week World Cup soccer millions of them like my self can't name 3 players but what we know is we will be watching the worlds best players playing the world biggest event and yes game that most of us played at some time or another
We call the game attachment
Same could easily be said for the Super Bowl millions from other countries will tune in that can't name 5 players and couldn't tell you 3 rules yet the will watch
Why ? Because the game is attractive to the Eye
Collage sports don't have any players playing longer than 4 yrs and fans tune in week after week ,,
The Boston Red Sox went almost 100 yrs with out a championship but there fans have supported the home town team yr after like few ever have

Sorry but pool is not interesting and if it stumbled into a 2.8 viewership it obviously followed a swim suit contest and the TVs were left on and it did not end with those numbers or pool would still be on TV regardless of activity behind the scenes
It's simply not that interesting ,, the other avid watchers of pool are the real hard core
and that number is dwindling

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It's not about pool's image being "positive or negative"

Professional Pool is not vibrant and lucrative because the people involved with it have never been able to portray it for what it actually is....it's like our own personal lives, if we go through life trying to be something we're not we are doomed to live a shallow, unfulfilled, unrewarding, and unprofitable existence.

It's not about pool's image being "positive or negative", these are just individual judgments....."as you judge, so too will you be judged"....this is more than what is said, and it applies directly to how pool's "life" has been mismanaged and those that play and love it have suffered as well. imho

May I add that anyone who has been involved in professional pool has not done any of these things intentionally, on the contrary they always tried to portray professional pool as a clean, wholesome, fun game....which is one perspective, but how far would NASCAR, MMA, Boxing, or Football (or the hit TV Shows 'Breaking Bad' and 'The Sopranos' as well) advanced using these descriptions and strategies? 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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CJ Wiley said:
Professional Pool is not vibrant and lucrative because the people involved with it have never been able to portray it for what it actually is....it's like our own personal lives, if we go through life trying to be something we're not we are doomed to live a shallow, unfulfilled, unrewarding, and unprofitable existence.

It's not about pool's image being "positive or negative", these are just individual judgments....."as you judge, so too will you be judged"....this is more than what is said, and it applies directly to how pool's "life" has been mismanaged and those that play and love it have suffered as well. imho

May I add that anyone who has been involved in professional pool has not done any of these things intentionally, on the contrary they always tried to portray professional pool as a clean, wholesome, fun game....which is one perspective, but how far would NASCAR, MMA, Boxing, or Football (or the hit TV Shows 'Breaking Bad' and 'The Sopranos' as well) advanced using these descriptions and strategies? 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Really so bragging about wearing fake glasses and changing your name to get a game was all good clean fun ,,ya Ok


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jay helfert said:
It's difficult for me to read all this and remain silent. First of all Thank God for Matchroom and the Mosconi Cup, along with the other first class Pool events they produce (the World Cup of Pool and the World Pool Masters to name two). It would be a huge loss to our sport if they ever gave up on Pool. Once again I thank God for the tireless energy and devotion to the game of the President and owner of Matchroom, Sir Barry Hearn. Our newest Hall of Famer has been a Godsend to the game!

To say that the Mosconi Cup is a "coin flip" that is contrived for television is to do a huge disservice to this COMPETITION! Typically over 150 games of 9-Ball are played over the course of the Cup each year. That, by anyone's standards, is not a small block of games. To say each match is intense is an understatement. All the pressure and the challenges that makes pool such a great game are on display during the four days (only three days in 2013) of competition. The cream always rises to the top here, with the best players coming forth with amazing shots and superb run-outs.

I have been witness to this great event for the last six years and truly look forward to it each year. For good reason it is a fitting highlight to the pool year. I will not sit idly by and let anyone degrade one of the best events we have in our sport. The Mosconi Cup is at it's heart a very intense and yet entertaining pool competition. It never fails to show us the best and the worst that can happen in the course of a pool match.

My sole complaint is that it rarely, if ever, airs on television in the states. A damn shame that the best pool of the year is lost to those here who would enjoy it the most. I'm glad that now it's possible to watch it live on the net at least. I'm looking forward to Blackpool come December. :thumbup:

P.S. The reason the Mosconi Cup (and other Matchroom events) do not air on television here is that the networks have been unable to sell the necessary advertising for these shows. A network has to buy a package of shows knowing they will get advertising revenue when they air.. Without the Ads (sponsors)..no show will get on TV. This is Basic Television Programming 101. :wink:
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100% correct Jay..It is hard to believe, that there are people who think a 'Reality (Gong) Show' about pool players private lives, (wins, losses, etc.) will generate ANY meaningful sponsorship, is really a bit of a stretch ! ..Sadly, the dismal number of hardcore pool enthusiast's (like us) are the the main reason that is never going to happen...I don't see that changing, EVER !..

Of the millions who enjoy playing pool, it is just a diversionary pastime, a chance to get out and have few beers with the guys...Its a pretty safe bet, that less than .0001 percent of them, would know the difference between Shane Van Boening, and Cocobola Cowboy !

If people like Barry Hearne, were to turn their back on pool, or snooker, I think we would be witnessing the end of professional pool, worldwide !.. If his noble efforts at trying to promote the game, cannot even penetrate the U.S. market, it is hard to believe an ex-pro from Texas, has a prayer ! (but I guess we both have to wish him best of luck) :rolleyes:

SJD
 
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Maybe the older demographic is overlooked

I remember when we were kids we wanted to do what we weren't allowed to do....Maybe we should make pool an "Adults Only Game" and the kids will be climbing walls to get in to play the game.

Maybe the older demographic is overlooked. I know many in their 60's, 70's, and even 80's that would love to have a better reason to play pool...it's a great game for your Mind, Body and Spirit and can be played by everyone including all ethnicities, gender's and ages.. truly a sport/game for EVERYONE to enjoy... the Master Game -'The Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
Professional Pool is not vibrant and lucrative because the people involved with it have never been able to portray it for what it actually is....

...they always tried to portray professional pool as a clean, wholesome, fun game....which is one perspective, but how far would NASCAR, MMA, Boxing, or Football (or the hit TV Shows 'Breaking Bad' and 'The Sopranos' as well) advanced using these descriptions and strategies? 'The Game is the Teacher'
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For there to be an 'underbelly', there has to be something to be the underbelly of; which is the 'gentleman's game', aka 'respectable professional sports'

Clearly any activity in the world can be the subject of a TV show, ala Duck Dynasty, Swamp People, Diggers, Pickers, Cake Bakers, scrap buyers, tuna fishers, crab fishers, bass fishers, gold miners, gem smugglers, beer brewers, home flippers, even hoarders have their own show.

The question is, what kind of light to do you want to shine on pool? One that will focus on the underbelly, or one that highlights the redeeming attributes of competition and fair play, and the satisfaction of achieving one's goals?

While the underbelly has plenty of potential for viewership, it wouldn't do much to elevate the professional world (of pool) or the respect level it is given by the general public, and in fact it may make it worse. Shining a light on the vices of pool is to uninvite pool from many communities in the u.s.

Professional pool and pool in general needs more respect, not just more money, to thrive in this country. And events like the Mosconi Cup are the perfect way to achieve it.

Nobody wants boring, but there is a distinct difference between professional sport and vice gaming.
 
trying to put the "Lead" before the "Match" has proven not to be effective

In the entertainment world you give the people what they want to see. As far as "what light" to shine on pool, I think we shine the True Light......and let the "chips" fall as they may.

One thing that doesn't work is trying to portray yourself, or your business as something it's not.....there's a strategy in advanced marketing called "Match, Pace, and Lead"......you match what people "think" your product is, you then "pace" them in a way that leads them to where you want them to be (or think).

This process will work, however, trying to put the "Lead" before the "Match" has proven not to be effective for years, and years, and years, and years................'The Game is the Teacher'


Mr. Bond said:
For there to be an 'underbelly', there has to be something to be the underbelly of; which is the 'gentleman's game', aka 'respectable professional sports'

Clearly any activity in the world can be the subject of a TV show, ala Duck Dynasty, Swamp People, Diggers, Pickers, Cake Bakers, scrap buyers, tuna fishers, crab fishers, bass fishers, gold miners, gem smugglers, beer brewers, home flippers, even hoarders have their own show.

The question is, what kind of light to do you want to shine on pool? One that will focus on the underbelly, or one that highlights the redeeming attributes of competition and fair play, and the satisfaction of achieving one's goals?

While the underbelly has plenty of potential for viewership, it wouldn't do much to elevate the professional world (of pool) or the respect level it is given by the general public, and in fact it may make it worse. Shining a light on the vices of pool is to uninvite pool from many communities in the u.s.

Professional pool and pool in general needs more respect, not just more money, to thrive in this country. And events like the Mosconi Cup are the perfect way to achieve it.

Nobody wants boring, but there is a distinct difference between professional sport and vice gaming.
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I'm not sure what you "remember," however, it's certainly incorrect.

I remember before the first day when none of your players had a clue where you were for the welcome dinner; then when everything that you could have prepared beforehand wasn't done.

Your conception of the event - "Nothing more than a TV Show" would explain why you turned up at the last minute, had no clue about the order of the matches or the rules about who to pair in the scotch doubles and such. Which is why Johnny had to carry the weight of being the anchor of the team - which he did in fantastic fashion this year -.
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We all walked to the Dinner together from the hotel, walked in at the same time and sat down together.......I'm not sure what you "remember," however, it's certainly incorrect....I was there 100% of the time as all the other players.

I had no issues except I did unplug my microphone to take a whizzz and forgot to plug it back in a couple of times.....I seriously doubt if that made any real difference in the quality of their presentation. Besides that everything went very well, and it was 9/9 on the final day.....If Mike Dechaine or Brandon Shuff would have won either of the last two matches we would have ultimately won the Mosconi Cup.....we were that close!!!


I filled out the orders with Johnny Archer (he was my "right hand player" because he'd competed in every MC since I played in 1996 as Captain and Player) and we had them done and to SKY SPORTS in plenty of time. They need them well in advance to prep the TV Show........and when I say "TV Show," it's as a complement, not an insult.


One great TV Show is worth 10 untelevised pool tournaments in my book.....actually if it's on ESPN it's better than 1000.....maybe even 10,000 non televised tournaments because millions of "mainstream people" will be exposed to pool. 'The Game Will Be There Teacher'
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CJ Wiley said:
In the entertainment world you give the people what they want to see. As far as "what light" to shine on pool, I think we shine the True Light......and let the "chips" fall as they may.

One thing that doesn't work is trying to portray yourself, or your business as something it's not.....there's a strategy in advanced marketing called "Match, Pace, and Lead"......you match what people "think" your product is, you then "pace" them in a way that leads them to where you want them to be (or think).

This process will work, however, trying to put the "Lead" before the "Match" has proven not to be effective for years, and years, and years, and years................'The Game is the Teacher'
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As a self proclaimed EXPERT in the 'entertainment world' and 'strategic marketing'..It looks like you could remember to plug in your microphone, and maybe occasionally, wear your team colors for photos ! :confused:
 
CJ Wiley said:
In the entertainment world you give the people what they want to see. As far as "what light" to shine on pool, I think we shine the True Light......and let the "chips" fall as they may.

One thing that doesn't work is trying to portray yourself, or your business as something it's not.....there's a strategy in advanced marketing called "Match, Pace, and Lead"......you match what people "think" your product is, you then "pace" them in a way that leads them to where you want them to be (or think).

This process will work, however, trying to put the "Lead" before the "Match" has proven not to be effective for years, and years, and years, and years................'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Matching is leading and leading is matching.
But I digress.
The Mosconi Cup is an ideal tv production, and has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that no 'underbellyish' elements are necessary to promote the sport with a high degree of success, both monetarily and in terms of respect and pride.

The title is respected, the team spots are coveted, its a fierce rivalry and is marketed as such, and it has astounding viewership, its dam near perfect.....and it has not a speckle of underbelly in it anywhere. God himself watches the Mosconi Cup.

This is the type of attention pool needs to build membership, build positive sponsor relations, and stay strong in the long run, not another flash in the pan.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Besides that everything went very well, and it was 9/9 on the final day.....If Mike Dechaine or Brandon Shuff would have won either of the last two matches we would have ultimately won the Mosconi Cup.....we were that close!!!
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Woah, not only were those two big underdogs in their matches (particularly the way they were playing that week), but saying that if either one had won you "would have ultimately won the Mosconi Cup" is outright false.
 
Mr. Bond said:
Matching is leading and leading is matching.
But I digress.
The Mosconi Cup is an ideal tv production, and has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that no 'underbellyish' elements are necessary to promote the sport with a high degree of success, both monetarily and in terms of respect and pride.

The title is respected, the team spots are coveted, its a fierce rivalry and is marketed as such, and it has astounding viewership, its dam near perfect.....and it has not a speckle of underbelly in it anywhere. God himself watches the Mosconi Cup.

This is the type of attention pool needs to build membership, build positive sponsor relations, and stay strong in the long run, not another flash in the pan.
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The MC entertains you, it entertains others, that makes it a great event. The structure, the production, the atmosphere etc all make for a great show and that show has potential to bring in fans. Maybe CJ didn't say it in the best way but I think this is what CJ is saying.

Bringing in fans is what will elevate pool. While I agree that MC is great for what it is and people will love to watch SVB play in the cup I also believe that another way to bring in fans is to professionally produce Shane "underbelly" activity. And not just Shane's, there are a lot of great players that could be highlighted. And if produced in a professional manner would be every bit as entertaining as the cup if not moreso. What if the Derby was recorded and professionally produced... Do you think it would be entertaining? You think it could bring in new fans?
 
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CJ Wiley said:
We all walked to the Dinner together from the hotel, walked in at the same time and sat down together.......I'm not sure what you "remember," however, it's certainly incorrect....I was there 100% of the time as all the other players.
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My bad CJ, I forgot to mention that it was when we went for the dinner, not at the dinner. Everybody was in the lobby, and we waited more than a while for you. I remember very well talking to Mike D., Brandon and they hadn't seen you prior. Johnny had seen you but didn't know where you went.

In the meantime, the Europeans had been practicing the whole afternoon, stopped to get to their rooms and rest, and all got together on time for a get-together at the London bridge at 5pm, then came back to the hotel and every one of them was on time to leave the hotel.

By that time, Johan already had figured out his plans for the next few days, arranged the practice room, talked about schedules and line-ups with the players.

In the afternoon of Day 1 you had a lot of questions about the schedule, picks, line-ups that could all have been thought about well in advance. That is what I meant by "preparation".


Thinking you were actually close to winning with so little preparation is very surprising. The records of the other players are as follows (including the team match won by USA):

Johnny 6W - 0L
Shane 4W - 2L
Dennis 3W - 3L
Brandon 2W - 5L
Mike 2W - 4L

Furthermore, in the 4 days, the singles scores were Europe 8 - 4 USA. With Johnny scoring 2 of these, Dennis and Shane both 1.

Winning one of the last two matches you mentioned wouldn't have won you the Cup. If it would have been to 10-10 Shane vs. Darren would have played (captain's picks). In which case we can also look at numbers:

Day 3:
Appleton 5 - 0 Van Boening

Day 4:
Appleton 1-5 Van Boening


So, saying it was "very close", and the best effort USA had offered in quite a few years is absolutely right. But saying you were going to win... It's more than a long stretch.



I can see you answered some of the questions you could but are still eluding the interesting ones.

Please quote in details examples as to how and when the players were asked to act. And please explain why this event is by no means a proper competition, but just a show, when it's being played on pro equipment, with tournament rules.
 
voiceofreason said:
I agree with CJ.<--On What ????

Why "market or change" pool to suit tv audiences? Pool is what it is. If people don't want to watch it on the telly box, so be it. It is what it is
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Are you saying there is not room for MASSIVE improvement, in (to use CJ's vernacular) 'strategic marketing' ?...
..I would beg to differ !..But I would probably not agree with CJ's method of going about it, if he even has one !..He is way too erratic for me ! :sorry:
 
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