Mosconi on aiming .

[KRJ]

hmmm

Funny how I interpreted Bob's Jewett's response differently than you did.

Bob did hit the nail on the head that one should try to do their own research and not depend on the opinions of so-called "experts" who are often wrong. So people like JB who have openly admitted to being biased and to not being an expert on aiming systems, are probably the least qualified people to be advising other people on aiming systems.

On the other hand, people like Dr. Dave are extremely knowledgeable about various aiming systems and should be considered experts on the subject. These are the people who's opinions I respect and value. So if Dr. Dave has researched a particular aiming system and has doubts about it, then I will tend to give that a lot of weight.

No, we interpreted his post the same. You are just looking at it the wrong way. I don't recall JB ever saying he teaches "aiming" or that he even teaches folks pool at all. Just because he agrees with other experts, and your obvious dislike for the guy, you cannot discount the expert opinions he does agree with.

And make no mistake, Dave is an expert, just the same as SJD is an expert 1P player, but Randy G, Scott Lee and Stan Shuffet are also experts in their field of billiard instruction. And at times all experts might not agree on something but the bottom line is some of them are arguing for the wrong reasons. Thus, we got a room full of experts and it appears they are beginning to see some common ground, so no need to start throwing some more wood on the fire as it does nothing in assisting anyone in getting better at potting balls, which I'm not so sure what is wrong with that anyways

 

[SJDinPHX]

Well, no systems to take on VEGAS?. Well, one of them was created by somebody you know on 1P.org who made MILLIONS.....and he used ....wait for it........ a system!!
Nice "Banger" statement !...Gambling/Odds and "Pool Aiming Systems" are like apples and watermelon

And one that was so good, he is persona non grata in every casino in Vegas. He can go inside, and he can actually eat there, but he CANNOT gamble. Yikes, I hate when you're wrong....
'Banger" status confirmed...I have been to, Reno, Tahoe, Laughlin and Vegas (when it was really Vegas.."Rat Pack years) more times than I can remember and probably was in with, (or staked,) more 'card counter's, slot rigger's and card cheats, then you'll ever know. Some were VERY profitable, a few were very scary.. I don't expect you to know that about me, because I doubt you were born yet. Just ask Incardona ! He worked for Billy Walter's (yes the "60 Minute" interview guy) during that time frame.
He may be hard to catch, as he usually avoids this place like the plague. (for obvious reasons)

And if somebody wanted a lesson tomorrow and they are provided a way to pot balls better, nobody here believes that will make them world beaters, because potting balls is only the first step, there is still position, touch, and knowledge of what shot to take, but also what is the best way to take it, follow or draw, etc, and that is what seperates the greats from the league players. But only 1 in a thousand folks take a pool lesson on aimining that want to be a world champion cause they could NOT afford the pay cut. Heck, if they could win their legaue MVP they would be happy campers
Excellent insight RJ...couldn't agree more....

And you are pretty naive if you believe there is ONLY one way to learn something in life. And if folks cannot get good by just "seeing" the shot as Lou likes to believe, but want to learn something that makes them pot balls better, not sure why that infuriates you so?
Naive you say...Lou nor I have never become "infuriated", although we do feel empathy, for all the newbies who are being mislead...The only ones who become "infuriated" are the "ASS" clique, when common sense prevails

And just because some "pro" agrees with you does NOT make you right. Again, you guys that are 1P experts (I'm including you) disagree on a daily basis over there on 1P.org on shot selection, how to play the game (offensive versus defensive), when to push balls up stream, etc., etc., so even great minds DO NOT always think alike......
This is true, but at least we have an intelligent, usually good natured needling way, af making our point.

RJ, You get an "A" for effort...I have you rated much higher than most of the
"bangers" in your day camp...(Light years, more than one of them,),when it comes to a sensible debate...:thumbup:

PS..Don't dissapoint me now, grasshopper..

 

[bstroud]

Many years ago I learned how to aim in a book on snooker by Joe Davis.

He called it the area method and it has served me well.

Bill Stroud

 

[lfigueroa]

Not one system advocate on this forum has EVER said that aiming systems are a shortcut to greatness. Not one, not ever, never.

Search: JB Cases, shortcut, aiming system:

"I really do believe that with CTE as a baseline for aiming and the right guidance on the other aspects of the game that a player does have a shortcut to becoming a champion."

That was just from earlier this year

Lou Figueroa
I know, I know
you were really emphasizing
the "other aspects"

 

[lfigueroa]

Heretic! How dare you say that a professional player uses any sort of method not on SJD's list of proper ways to play pool.

Now someone will have to go wake up Efren and tell him his name is being used on the forum by bangers.

SJD will tell us in ten minutes that you are full of crap and Efren doesn't use BHE it's all "feel" and it's always been feel and will always be feel.

When will you learn to shut up about things that pro players tell you. You're not supposed to share that with the forum and out them. They have to sign a blood oath never to reveal what they do when SJD admits them to the fraternity of world class players. Anything they SAY they do is a lie and SJD will denounce them as liars for money in order to keep you from believing whatever they are endorsing.

So keep it quiet. We don't want them hunted down and castrated by SJD and his minions for telling you something to help you get better.

Shhhhhh..............

Could someone, maybe Dr. Dave, clarify: is BHE an aiming system, or maybe just a technique for applying english?

Lou Figueroa

 

[SJDinPHX]

Duplicate post..See post #62[

 

[lfigueroa]

I use an aiming method and it has helped me improve my game, I was taught this by one of the best players in my state. I do not have any natural ability I do not think for the game, some do but most do not. I believe Dick is one of those guys who is a natural when it comes to pool. Shane says he uses a method called stick aiming, I believe that is the shaft method which is similar/same to what I learned this past year. Shane is not selling an aiming product or endorsing anybody's system so what reason would he have to say that?

I just never had the natural ability to pocket balls by feel with consistency and needed a guide to get me going, whether its fools gold or not, it works for this fool. I know I will never be a champion player, if I become a shortstop I would be okay with that as I only started pool at 25, I just turned 32. The big thing for me is enjoying the game and the better you play the more fun it is, the more pleasure comes from the game when your making great shots, playing solid and winning.

Lenny, let's play Jeopardy: What is stick aiming?

Lou Figueroa
I actually dan't know

 

[SJDinPHX]

Duplicate post.see post #62

 

[lfigueroa]

Bob, I believe you have hit the nail on the head. And this is pretty much what JoeyA, JB, spidey and a few others were saying.

lol. You need to read what Bob wrote again.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Many years ago I learned how to aim in a book on snooker by Joe Davis.

He called it the area method and it has served me well.

Bill Stroud

Bill, could you splain' please.

Lou Figueroa

 

[dr_dave]

Could someone, maybe Dr. Dave, clarify: is BHE an aiming system, or maybe just a technique for applying english?

Backhand English (BHE) is a technique for compensating for squirt when using English. It assumes the center-ball aim has already been determined. In typical "aiming system" threads, the phrase "aiming system" usually refers to a method or procedure that can be used to aim basic center-ball cut shots. Many example "aiming systems" can be found here:

aiming system resource page​

However, there are many "systems" that help people aim kick and bank shots, determine CB direction for position control, compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, etc. All of these "systems" can help people determine required lines of aim for different types of shots, but they are not the types of "aiming systems" usually debated in these threads.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SJDinPHX]

Apologies to Chicago RJ, and others...I made a few edits in my original post (so shoot me) and everytime I hit save, I see it put up a new post...Please disregard all but the first...I'm not going to go thru them all.

Have to wonder why AZ does not have a "delete post" option, like we do at 1P.org ??? ....For some reason, the 1st Post #62...is the final version (I believe)..:withstupid:

 

[KRJ]

hmmm

RJ, You get an "A" for effort...I have you rated much higher than most of the "bangers" in your day camp...(Light years, more than one of them,), when it comes to a sensible debate...:thumbup:

PS..Don't dissapoint me now, grasshopper..

Well, first if I"m a "banger" I'm not sure what you would be because you replied three times to my same post...... I guess you would just be a keyboard banger


CRJ: Well, no systems to take on VEGAS?. Well, one of them was created by somebody you know on 1P.org who made MILLIONS.....and he used ....wait for it........ a system!!

SJD: Nice "Banger" statement !

CRJ: How can it be a banger statement if it was true. He made millions and he posts quite frequently on 1P.org, your home turf.....made more money than any pool player alive gambling (more like stealing) but just symantics I guess..... you might not like him, but you gotta give him props for the money he "made" off the casinos' for YEARS.... and he can shoot "a little" 1P to boot !!! :grin:

PS: SJD, if you gonna reply to this.... figure out what u gonna say first so you don't have to go back and change it three times,,,, take your time, take a deap breath, and aim those "keys".....

 

[JB Cases]

Search: JB Cases, shortcut, aiming system:

"I really do believe that with CTE as a baseline for aiming and the right guidance on the other aspects of the game that a player does have a shortcut to becoming a champion."

That was just from earlier this year

Lou Figueroa
I know, I know
you were really emphasizing
the "other aspects"

Yes in the same sense that being shown Ghost Ball is a short cut. Any time someone TEACHES you something that shortens your learning curve then it IS a shortcut.

However the way SJD and I guess now you like to present it is that I am telling everyone that ALL you need is a good aiming system. Never said that as evidenced above.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob,

What I'm curious about is do the BCA Instructors as a whole; have an official stance on some of the different aiming systems? If not, why not? I would think the recognized BCA Instructors should be able to come to a conclusion on the benefits or detriments of a specific aiming system.

Just curious if there was any talk about this.

At one time the BCA had an official Instructor's Training Manual, but it got discarded along the way and most Master Academies neither contributed to it nor used it. There is more or less no stance by the BCA Instructor Program on the usefulness of any particular pool idea with a few exceptions. Those exceptions would be the products which have been endorsed by the program. I have found some of those products to be ..... not worth their cost. Each instructor decides on his own curriculum and emphasis.

 

[JB Cases]

Many years ago I learned how to aim in a book on snooker by Joe Davis.

He called it the area method and it has served me well.

Bill Stroud

Sorry Bill but if you didn't learn to aim through trial and error and hitting a million balls and running the roads then your opinion doesn't count.

It's blasphemy to say you learned to aim from a book. And further heresy to say that what was in the book was not "ghost ball" and even further sins against nature to claim that a world class professional was teaching this non-ghost ball method.

Please go to SJD and apologize for misleading the newbies.

Better yet how about you and SJD match up some one hole and I will ship it all in on you.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bill, could you splain' please.

Lou Figueroa

In case Bill doesn't get back, I think that would be:

Joe Davis, Complete Snooker (for the Amateur), 1967 (plus other editions), hardback with dust jacket. I think this was a combination of two of his previous books, "How I Play Snooker" and "Advanced Snooker".​

 

[JB Cases]

At one time the BCA had an official Instructor's Training Manual, but it got discarded along the way and most Master Academies neither contributed to it nor used it. There is more or less no stance by the BCA Instructor Program on the usefulness of any particular pool idea with a few exceptions. Those exceptions would be the products which have been endorsed by the program. I have found some of those products to be ..... not worth their cost. Each instructor decides on his own curriculum and emphasis.

And this is a travesty.

I think that the BCA Instructors, at least the Master Instructors, as a body should get together and approve methods of instruction. If the majority agree that a certain method is useful, easy to teach, geometrically viable on some level, etc..... then it gets the BCA seal of approval. This doesn't mean that BCA instructors can't teach methods that are not in the BCA Approved list. But it does mean that prospective buyers of DVDs and lessons can look at the methods being offered and see whether they are approved or not. With approval being defined as "found to be useful by the majority of Master instructors".

After all, if an aiming system is being packaged and sold like a product then it ought to be treated like a product. A jump cue has to conform to the BCA and WPA rules if it is to be used in those tournaments so there is not any reason why there can't be accepted teaching methods and physical principles that are also BCA Instructor Approved.

And this does not mean that what's not on the approved list has no merit either. It merely serves as a way to inform the public that the things ON the approved list have at least been talked about. That said I wouldn't even be opposed to having a list of methods that applied for BCA approval and failed to get it as long as the reasons were given so that the applicant could work on the method and reapply.

I don't believe that these methods are snake oil. But as long as they live outside the realm of official examination by the highest order of professional instruction we have then they will always be considered as such by a percentage of the pool playing public.

To me nothing could be better than have the country's top instructors trying diligently to understand your aiming system and find out it's strengths and weaknesses. If it passes their examination then you have a super strong accreditation. Then if you get professionals who endorse it with honest use all the better.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Sorry Bill but if you didn't learn to aim through trial and error and hitting a million balls and running the roads then your opinion doesn't count.

It's blasphemy to say you learned to aim from a book. And further heresy to say that what was in the book was not "ghost ball" and even further sins against nature to claim that a world class professional was teaching this non-ghost ball method.

Please go to SJD and apologize for misleading the newbies.

Better yet how about you and SJD match up some one hole and I will ship it all in on you.

Perhaps you should just ask Mr. Stroud, who was the only one who strummed him, at one hole, 'back in the day'..He will tell you in his own words if you ask nice, John..(but he won't like it )

Billy and I made one good trip, from Denver to Johnston City, in the early 60's...I consider him a friend, therefore, just like Darren, I will NOT call him a 'LIAR'..

Your chronic "Foot-in-Mouth" disease, is having a recurrence John... PLEASE, seek help now, before it becomes terminal !...I really do worry about you..

PS..Don't you ever get tired of being wrong, at least daily ?.. (especially post #78)..Travesty you say..:banghead:

 

[JB Cases]

John you are starting to get carried away again...If you can dredge up that thread, (that you probably had yanked)...
I will give you 10K, if you can find ANYWHERE, I ever called Darren, or anyone else a 'LIAR'...So what does that make YOU ?
I offered you a little bit of an olive branch, in my previous post...but you were busy hammering away on another tirade... So if it's all the same to you, I'll just pass on your little pissing contests...I really feel they are beneath me anyway.

They make me feel like I am the only healthy person in a "Special Olympics" race. I don't want you to accuse me of taking advantage of you.

Well Dick I don't know how to interpret it when you say Darren is not using something he is endorsing even after he came on here and publicly said he is using it. He even said that he was using something similar even before meeting the author which belies your claim that he only uses "feel" to line up shots.

In our language we have many ways of saying the same thing.

So maybe you can explain to the readers what exactly you meant when Darren says he does use the system he endorses and you say he does not.