JUST FINISHED reading mosconis autobiography for the tenth time. My question is greenleaf won all his championships on a five by ten and mosconis were on both, so was greenleaf the better player?
mosconi or greenleaf?
- Thread starter Winne2tough
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Impossible to say with no available video of both players. Also Mosconi came in to his own as a player as Greenleaf was in decline. Finally you can't fault Mosconi for winning titles on 9 foot table, it wasn't his decision.
Probably a question we will never know the answer to for the reasons Cameron stated.
true
mosconi didnt want the change. mosconi was definitely all buisness. hard question for me to answer. want to hear what the majority think first
mosconi didnt want the change. mosconi was definitely all buisness. hard question for me to answer. want to hear what the majority think first
IMO Mosconi may well be the greatest straight pool player ever. No one has ever been more of a perfectionist or more of a ruthless competitor than Mosconi.
But, I also think that Greenleaf sometimes gets overlooked in discussions of the greatest players ever, partly because his heyday was the 1920's and 30's, and partly because his greatness is somewhat overshadowed by his eccentricities and his battle with the bottle. Mosconi and Greenleaf are, quite possibly, the two greatest straight pool players ever.
But, I also think that Greenleaf sometimes gets overlooked in discussions of the greatest players ever, partly because his heyday was the 1920's and 30's, and partly because his greatness is somewhat overshadowed by his eccentricities and his battle with the bottle. Mosconi and Greenleaf are, quite possibly, the two greatest straight pool players ever.
You can learn a lot by watching Freddy the Beard's videos on his website (http://indexandlinkstobeardstuff.blogspot.com/). Mosconi said Greenleaf was the greatest without a doubt (other than himself, we must assume). Jimmy Caras says Greenleaf. Irving Crane says Greenleaf and Mosconi.
All of these guys played a lot on a 5x10. The fact that Greenleaf won all his championships on a 5x10 doesn't make him the best. But during his prime, which came before Mosconi's, he clearly stood out above all others.
FWIW, I would say that Mosconi achieved a higher skill level and will to win than Greenleaf had ever had. Ralph liked fun too much.
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Most of us here would probably be poor judges between these two players, since we haven't seen both play. But, it seems to me that when you asked players who played both of them - guys like Joe Procita, Onofrio Lauri, Jimmy Caras and even Minnesota Fats - they liked Ralph Greenleaf over Willie Mosconi (most of the time).
Think it is like compairing the Burger King, with Micky D's will the war ever end?
Hal Houle, although I'm sure was a little biased, told me that Ralph said he could beat Mosconi "at will." Not sure how accurate this story is but the two played at some Brunswick exhibition (Brunswick sponsoring Willie) and Ralph beat Mosconi pretty well. After that, the two wanted to play again but Brunswick wouldn't allow Mosconi to play him at another exhibition-- so I doubt it ever happened again.
If someone reads this and has a different version, please don't flame me. I'm merely repeating what Hal told me a number of times. Hal, who lived pool during that era, said that Ralph was a freak of nature -- an idiot savant at pool who would go days without a missed shot.
Now, everyone who reads-up on their history knows that Ralph was an alcoholic and drug addict. Whether he could play his top gear "straight" was another story. Based on Hal's recollection, when Ralph was "right"-- and we all know what that means--- nobody in the solar system during that time wanted anything to do with the guy at 14.1.
If someone reads this and has a different version, please don't flame me. I'm merely repeating what Hal told me a number of times. Hal, who lived pool during that era, said that Ralph was a freak of nature -- an idiot savant at pool who would go days without a missed shot.
Now, everyone who reads-up on their history knows that Ralph was an alcoholic and drug addict. Whether he could play his top gear "straight" was another story. Based on Hal's recollection, when Ralph was "right"-- and we all know what that means--- nobody in the solar system during that time wanted anything to do with the guy at 14.1.
The stats
In almost all the statistics that reflect their head-to-head competition, Mosconi holds an edge - but that's not truly an answer. Most of the older men I've talked to who saw both men play insist that Greenleaf had the prettier game by far. But I was only 12 when Greenleaf died, and since none of us ever saw him play live, there's probably no single correct answer to the question originally posted. GF
In almost all the statistics that reflect their head-to-head competition, Mosconi holds an edge - but that's not truly an answer. Most of the older men I've talked to who saw both men play insist that Greenleaf had the prettier game by far. But I was only 12 when Greenleaf died, and since none of us ever saw him play live, there's probably no single correct answer to the question originally posted. GF
Willie Mosconi does hold the record until this day for the highest straight pool run and on a 5 X 10 table. Take into account Billiard technology has come a long way since then and Modern equipment is easier to play.
But comparing today's Pros, they have their ups and downs. We all have our ups and downs. The bottom line is they both were great. Since I am old enough to have seen Willie Mosconi play in person and not Ralph Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi is my hero.
In 1979 I saw Jersey Red who beat Willie Mosconi for that years straight pool world title, sometime in the 1950's. It was Jersey Red and his appearance at that time that made me never want to be a Professional pool player. He was a very broke man and when he did get a game he couldn't hit a lick.
Seems to me that Jimmy Caras always kicked Mosconi's butt on ABC TV expo matches later in life. I always love watching the steam coming off of Mosconi's head while he was getting beat. I've heard that Mosconi tipped the bottle a bit too, like Ralph. No doubt that Mosconi was far ahead on class alone in the Atlantic City battles at Harrahs and Claridge.
Now I'm going to piss you all off with a comment. Personally, I don't give a flying furbag about who could have beaten who. They were all great, far better than I could ever be if I practiced night and day. As fans, these guys are franchises and you "adopt" one or the other. Personally, Irv Crane was my top guy, followed by Jimmy. I don't give a hoot whether Mosconi was better or not. The 150 and out against the Meatman was just unbelievable.
Folks have been cheering for the Cubs for years and they never seem to get close to a championship. Being a fan has got to be about more than just pure sucess.
Me ? I loved Irv's silent steel resolve and Jimmy's smile. Hated Mosconi's swagger. Would have liked to drink a few with Ralph, though.
Now you can go back to your regularly scheduled programming, or something a bit more on topic.
tim
Now I'm going to piss you all off with a comment. Personally, I don't give a flying furbag about who could have beaten who. They were all great, far better than I could ever be if I practiced night and day. As fans, these guys are franchises and you "adopt" one or the other. Personally, Irv Crane was my top guy, followed by Jimmy. I don't give a hoot whether Mosconi was better or not. The 150 and out against the Meatman was just unbelievable.
Folks have been cheering for the Cubs for years and they never seem to get close to a championship. Being a fan has got to be about more than just pure sucess.
Me ? I loved Irv's silent steel resolve and Jimmy's smile. Hated Mosconi's swagger. Would have liked to drink a few with Ralph, though.
Now you can go back to your regularly scheduled programming, or something a bit more on topic.
tim
endurance player
i will say mosconi was the best at the extended length tournaments. those that took place over a period of weeks or months
i will say mosconi was the best at the extended length tournaments. those that took place over a period of weeks or months
In 1933 after Mosconi played in his first world's tournament, he and Greenleaf were booked for an extended exhibition tour. At each exhibition they would play straight pool against each other. Early in the tour Greenleaf was winning most of the games, late in the tour Mosconi was. If I recall correctly, the final tally was Greenleaf 59, Mosconi 50 (something like that anyway).
Mosconi was 19 or 20 at the time, and still learning. He went to school on Ralph, studying his game. Ralph played position better than anyone he had ever seen, and he wanted to learn as much as he could from him. Ralph didn't give him lessons - Mosconi just learned by watching and competing with him. They played many tournaments and exhibitions after that, but Ralph was past his prime for most of them. But in 1933 Ralph was only 33 years old.
I wish we all had the bottom line on Mike Eufemia running all those balls, story goes he went over Mosconi's record on a bigger table more than once...I've heard stories of 6-7 hundred...makes you wonder. You guys got me wanting to read Willies Game again, his autobiography....hell if someone hadn't stolen the thing!
Grey Ghost
A few things jump out about Willie Mosconi's book.
1. He sounded like he didn't really like pool (all business). I wonder if he didn't like pool or what it became? People criticize that he only played 14.1 but what other competitions were available; he mentions lucky/gimmick "short" rack games when describing 9 ball and one pocket.
2. How did pool go from such a draw where it was in his day and Greenleaf's; money, front page news and lots of fans to how it's covered today? Even with all the new sports to watch today you would think there would be a little left.
3. He was granted appearance money are there players today who get appearance fees? I'm sure there's players who have entry and lodging paid from private sources but who gets the kind of money Mosconi received?
There's lots I like about the Irving Crane v Joe Balsis match but Mosconi described him as being dull (I'm not saying he is just what's in the book).
Mosconi mentions that if all the people who said they played him really did during WWII it would be the longest war in history.
1. He sounded like he didn't really like pool (all business). I wonder if he didn't like pool or what it became? People criticize that he only played 14.1 but what other competitions were available; he mentions lucky/gimmick "short" rack games when describing 9 ball and one pocket.
2. How did pool go from such a draw where it was in his day and Greenleaf's; money, front page news and lots of fans to how it's covered today? Even with all the new sports to watch today you would think there would be a little left.
3. He was granted appearance money are there players today who get appearance fees? I'm sure there's players who have entry and lodging paid from private sources but who gets the kind of money Mosconi received?
There's lots I like about the Irving Crane v Joe Balsis match but Mosconi described him as being dull (I'm not saying he is just what's in the book).
Mosconi mentions that if all the people who said they played him really did during WWII it would be the longest war in history.
Hal told me the same stories, he traveled with Greenleaf when he {Hal} was a kid. Hal told me that Greenleaf ran 150 and out over 1000 times.
It's hard to say really, they both totally dominated their eras. I've spoken to a few people who actually saw both players in their prime playing days and they all said Mosconi was just as great as everyone says he was but Greenleaf was slightly better. They said his cue ball control was incredible.
From what I've heard James Evans would spot anyone in the world (including mosconi) 20 balls in a 125 point game on a 5 x 10 table EXCEPT Greenleaf.
From what I've heard James Evans would spot anyone in the world (including mosconi) 20 balls in a 125 point game on a 5 x 10 table EXCEPT Greenleaf.