I think the slip stroke is like the forward press in golf. I was an awful putter prior to incorporating it into my stroke. It's difficult to start a motion without a motion to start it for some players in sports. He definitely used it in these frames. I saw it years ago in pool but rarely and some were like 6-10 inch slips. I don't need it to start my cue forward after drawing it back. But every now and then especially rail shots I have to say to myself any time now. It may be a comfort thing or a way of covering yips.
Mosconin stance
- Thread starter PoolBoy1
- Start date
I think the slip stroke is like the forward press in golf. I was an awful putter prior to incorporating it into my stroke. It's difficult to start a motion without a motion to start it for some players in sports. He definitely used it in these frames. I saw it years ago in pool but rarely and some were like 6-10 inch slips. I don't need it to start my cue forward after drawing it back. But every now and then especially rail shots I have to say to myself any time now. It may be a comfort thing or a way of covering yips.
I'll take this one lou:
You are the one that is stubborn.
1. We all have observed what he did.
2. He would occasionally reposition his hand SLIGHTLY rearward on the cue.
3. No one who knows what a slipstroke is, would think that movement is a slipstroke.
4. Lou and I have both explained this so many times I'm thinking of turning it into
a song.
5. Even Mr. Jewett was eventually swayed by Lou's logical analysis.
BTW if you want to learn what a slipstroke is - try to find some video of the other guy
in the OPs pic. Cowboy Jimmy Moore - now there was a slipstroke.
Dale(who moved his hand back on the cue 4 times in 14,007 shots, ergo I use a slipstroke)
Dale's world -- sort of like Wayne's world
The pdcue version of "all or nothing."
Let's see, it's either Cowboy Moore-caliber of slipstroke, or nothing. Anything less than Cowboy Jimmy Moore is merely a "reposition his hand SLIGHTLY" and not a slipstroke.
Yep, this is reflective of today's extremist world -- you're either right or left (and you need to have the needle pegged *hard* to those extremes to be considered part of that political crowd); hot or cold (no degrees of warmth); black or white (no shades of gray); luthier or "give-'em-a-screwdriver-and-they'll-stab-themselves-in-the-eye-with-it"; etc. You know, the society that lost its sense of the word "moderation" or middle ground. Dale's world.
-Sean <-- who used to use a slip stroke, and wrote a tutorial about it here on AZB
The pdcue version of "all or nothing."
Let's see, it's either Cowboy Moore-caliber of slipstroke, or nothing. Anything less than Cowboy Jimmy Moore is merely a "reposition his hand SLIGHTLY" and not a slipstroke.Yep, this is reflective of today's extremist world -- you're either right or left (and you need to have the needle pegged *hard* to those extremes to be considered part of that political crowd); hot or cold (no degrees of warmth); black or white (no shades of gray); luthier or "give-'em-a-screwdriver-and-they'll-stab-themselves-in-the-eye-with-it"; etc. You know, the society that lost its sense of the word "moderation" or middle ground. Dale's world.
-Sean <-- who used to use a slip stroke, and wrote a tutorial about it here on AZB
I'm stubborn? When have I ever argued this point before? Not on AZB at any rate, at least that I recall. You and Lou can define it your way, fine, be my guest. But anytime that I see a player slide his hand backward and re-grip the cue butt at any point during the backstroke, I would have to call that a slip stroke.
Now, it may not be the huge, silky smooth action like Moore had, but the hand slipped the grip on the cue and was repositioned further back. If that kind of stroke has another name, enlighten me. It sure ain't a conventional stroke.
I've played with this stroke a lot, and it has certain advantages to the way I shoot, but I do have a hard time controlling where I hit the CB at times, so I would never use it in serious play, but if I was a much younger man I would explore it a lot more. One thing I've learned through that process, however, is the sound my hand makes against my linen wrap. Sounds like a soft zipper. That sound was present in numerous shots that Willie took on that video, in addition to the rearward repositioning of the hand. Call it what you want, but it ain't standard fare.
The whole situation sounds odd. Lots of people here have seen him play many times and nobody (that I can recall) has mentioned that he ever played 50 points for a coke, and on top of that sharked some local guy for no apparent reason. I'm not exactly saying you are having a Brian Williams moment, but it was like 50 years ago. Any young guy (at the time) who has the presence of mind to mouth off to a legend and think about beating him up sounds like an aggressive personality. You sure there isn't more to the story?
Again, this may be the only time Mosconi has ever been a jerk to anybody in an exhibition situation. Maybe he was having a bad day.
It's called a grip adjustment.
How do I know? Because I do something similar. Back when I started playing pool in the 60's about the only instructional books out there were Mosconi's and a couple of others. So just like in his books, I adopted the short starting grip and to this day start out with my grip hand near the top of the wrap and my grip hand forward of perpendicular. Then, once I'm in shooting position, on every shot, I adjust my grip back. It's unusual style, but after 50 years I'm not about to change.
Adjusting a short starting grip backwards is most definitely not a slip stroke (though I can understand, if you're not familiar with the short grip, how it might be mistaken for one). You can see it clearly at 2:30 and 3:40 and at many other points throughout the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRNPz_CEszE
Lou Figueroa
One additional thing: I know there's limited video available of Mosconi in his prime. But, there are some vids or him playing Caras on ABC, an appearance on "What's My Line," some other TV appearances, and some instructional and exhibition stuff. When I reviewed much of that video, shot-by-shot, I saw no evidence of a slip stroke and wrote the results up here. In fact, the exact opposite was true -- in shot after shot, where you could clearly see him stroke, he either stayed with an extremely short, forward of perpendicular grip with his grip hand ending up way forward, or he would adjust his grip back when he had to stretch out for the shot.
Certainly, if Mosconi used a slip stroke, 6" or otherwise, there should be plenty of footage of him using a slip stroke that we should all be able to see.
But there isn't.
Lou Figueroa
Certainly, if Mosconi used a slip stroke, 6" or otherwise, there should be plenty of footage of him using a slip stroke that we should all be able to see.
But there isn't.
Lou Figueroa
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Mosconi stance and...
I also played Willie Mosconi in 1961 (his 1st public appearance in exhibition after consulting on the "Hustler" movie). I again played him (race to 150 in 14.1 pool) in 1962. He was traveling on the Brunswick Advisory Staff Tour
Your statement is absolutely correct about a more upright stance and using a lot of small shots playing 14.1, (usually only using the front 4 pockets and chipping balls off the rack to get shape). I have used the "slip-grip" ever since I started playing 14.1 pool. Most all 14.1 shots are shot softly and a short distance, and by holding the cue butt VERY lightly, you have better "touch" and speed.
I also played Willie Mosconi in 1961 (his 1st public appearance in exhibition after consulting on the "Hustler" movie). I again played him (race to 150 in 14.1 pool) in 1962. He was traveling on the Brunswick Advisory Staff Tour
Your statement is absolutely correct about a more upright stance and using a lot of small shots playing 14.1, (usually only using the front 4 pockets and chipping balls off the rack to get shape). I have used the "slip-grip" ever since I started playing 14.1 pool. Most all 14.1 shots are shot softly and a short distance, and by holding the cue butt VERY lightly, you have better "touch" and speed.
Henry, YOU are correct! My very good friend, Charlie Ursitti is the foremost authority presently on Willie Mosconi, whom He used to call, 'Uncle Willie.' And was His closest friend from 1978 till His passing.
We've spoke many times about Mosconi, in fact I'll be posting a phone and video interview with Charlie about Willie's life and His 526 ball run and another undocumented run in Las Vegas!
According to Charlie, Willie did have a 'short slip-stroke' like you said, around 6 inches. It was the, 'back in the day' version of the 'modern day slight pause' before delivering the final stroke!
OK, so here's what I posted about four years ago:
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My opinion as to whether Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke is based upon seeing him in person five times, give or take a time, in the late 60's early 70's. This was watching him play a match to 125 and then doing trick shots. My recollection is that I never saw him use a slip stroke.
I very quickly, on fast forward, just watched three videos, which I believe most of you can access one way or the other.
First, I watched Mosconi vs Caras at the Lakeshore Athelitic Club in Chicago in 1963. Caras wins 125-26. In that video I counted 18 shots where Mosconi was definitely not using a slip stroke or late grip adjustment. Six shots, where because of the camera angle, I couldn't determine what he did.
Next, I watched the Mosconi Straight Pool Break Shot video from 1980 in which he runs 28 balls. On 20 shots he does not use a slip stroke or last second grip adjustment. On seven shots the camera angle does not allow a determination. And on one shot *maybe* he does a last minute grip adjustment or slip stroke.
Last I watched the "I've Got a Secret" video from '62. I counted three shots where he either did a last minute grip adjustment or perhaps a slip stroke. On four shots he does not. And on eight shots you can't tell. On the two trick shots he shoots (six-on-one and the RR Shot) he does not use a slip stroke.
So what do you have after all that? Three, perhaps four shots on TV -- in a non-competive setting -- in which, maybe, he used a slip stroke and 42 shots where he didn't and another 21 where we can't tell (but he probably didn't), plus my recollection of his shooting over 600 balls in competitive exhibition play and however many times Dale saw him play, from which neither of us recall a slip stroke.
I don't know what was going on those three shots Maybe it was a new cue or he had just got it rewrapped and it was slippery, or the TV lights affected him, or he was just goofing. We dont know. But from the vast preponderance of evidence -- video and eye witness -- Willie Mosconi did not use a slip stroke.
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So why isn't there a shot on any of that video where we can clearly see Mosconi using a slip stroke and so many shots where we can clearly see he does not?
Lou Figueroa
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My opinion as to whether Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke is based upon seeing him in person five times, give or take a time, in the late 60's early 70's. This was watching him play a match to 125 and then doing trick shots. My recollection is that I never saw him use a slip stroke.
I very quickly, on fast forward, just watched three videos, which I believe most of you can access one way or the other.
First, I watched Mosconi vs Caras at the Lakeshore Athelitic Club in Chicago in 1963. Caras wins 125-26. In that video I counted 18 shots where Mosconi was definitely not using a slip stroke or late grip adjustment. Six shots, where because of the camera angle, I couldn't determine what he did.
Next, I watched the Mosconi Straight Pool Break Shot video from 1980 in which he runs 28 balls. On 20 shots he does not use a slip stroke or last second grip adjustment. On seven shots the camera angle does not allow a determination. And on one shot *maybe* he does a last minute grip adjustment or slip stroke.
Last I watched the "I've Got a Secret" video from '62. I counted three shots where he either did a last minute grip adjustment or perhaps a slip stroke. On four shots he does not. And on eight shots you can't tell. On the two trick shots he shoots (six-on-one and the RR Shot) he does not use a slip stroke.
So what do you have after all that? Three, perhaps four shots on TV -- in a non-competive setting -- in which, maybe, he used a slip stroke and 42 shots where he didn't and another 21 where we can't tell (but he probably didn't), plus my recollection of his shooting over 600 balls in competitive exhibition play and however many times Dale saw him play, from which neither of us recall a slip stroke.
I don't know what was going on those three shots Maybe it was a new cue or he had just got it rewrapped and it was slippery, or the TV lights affected him, or he was just goofing. We dont know. But from the vast preponderance of evidence -- video and eye witness -- Willie Mosconi did not use a slip stroke.
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So why isn't there a shot on any of that video where we can clearly see Mosconi using a slip stroke and so many shots where we can clearly see he does not?
Lou Figueroa
Lou:
There's a difference though; you aren't "readjusting backwards" (or whatever you want to call it) in your delivery stroke itself. There's a big difference between what you do (which I also do, by the way!), and a genuine slip stroke. You are not executing a slip stroke at all. Not in the slightest. Your hand remains pinned throughout the delivery stroke.
The contention with the Mosconi videos is that Mosconi is doing this readjustment during the pull back of his delivery stroke. When you do that mid-delivery stroke (and during the pull-back specifically), that is slip stroke territory.
BTW, you know I've complimented you before, but again, nice run in that video!
-Sean
The other contention is that "slip strokers use the slip stroke on all shots, or most of the time, to be considered a slip-stroker." That isn't what's being said here. Rather, what is being said here, is that Mosconi indeed has the slip stroke tool in his toolbox, and he uses it. Not all the time, mind you (heck, we can see that in the video showcased in this thread and in Phil Capelle's review). But he did reach into his toolbox and use it often.
Again, this "slight readjustment" [of the grip hand] is *during* the delivery stroke itself. Just readjusting your grip hand backwards just prior to delivering the cue (as you do, in your 112-ball run video) does not count as a slip stroke, because after the readjustment, you settle into a "Set" position, and your grip hand remains pinned to the cue throughout the delivery stroke -- pull-back and all.
I know it's a subtle difference to you (and Dale/pdcue), but it's significant to the definition of a slip stroke. It makes all the difference in the world, and probably is the reason why you and Dale are such stalwarts of defending Mosconi against even possessing the slip stroke tool in his toolbox. (Methinks that little difference of *where* and *when* that readjustment takes place is the reason for the contention.) He definitely does, and he used it often. Not every time, of course, but often enough to say that tool is in his toolbox.
After all these years, I hope this helps clarify this.
-Sean
Thank you, again, on the run.
So, Sean, where is the video of Mosconi using a slip stroke?
Lou Figueroa
You are using a grip re-adjustment, Willie is not.
Yes, you are moving your back hand toward the butt of the cue to correct your "short starting grip", but this is well before the actual back stroke has even begun. Once you make the proper adjustment, your hand is loose on the cue, but it remains stationary in that position throughout your back stroke. Willie is "adjusting" his grip on the fly, i.e. during the actual back stroke. Enormous difference, both in timing and in cue action.
In your stroke, your back hand starts forward of perpendicular, and you re-grab the cue once or even twice until your forearm is perpendicular at address. Willie's forearm is well forward of perpendicular at address, but he slides his hand back during the backstroke until it is in the position to be close to perpendicular at contact. Same net result, totally different arm action.
I don't think you could do a real slip stroke if you tried with that leather grip, especially since I think I remember you stating that it is elephant. That material is beautiful, and feels luxurious in the hand precisely because it is soft and yet quite grippy. Not the best stuff for a true slip stroke, though.
Sean, if Mosconi used a slip stroke "often," say what 30%, 20% of the time, where is the video of him using it? There's at least several hours of Mosconi on tape -- should be plenty, no?
Lou Figueroa
If you look at almost any video of Mosconi shooting you will se many, many instances where you can clearly see that his grip hand moves not at all from a very short, forward position. Over and over, his grip hand finishes the shot *way* forward. There is no slip stroke.
Where is video to the contrary?
Lou Figueroa
Ervolino also used a slip stroke.