When did they start shimming pockets? None of the guys I consider good play "pin point" position.
Mosconi's run
- Thread starter California Kid
- Start date
When did they start shimming pockets? None of the guys I consider good play "pin point" position.
In *all* the 14.1 I've watched over 40+ years, Mosconi is *the only guy* who made running 100 look *so easy* that you left the pool hall thinking "Well, anyone should be able to do that." Of course in real life, that's not the case, but that's just how simple he made the game look regardless of the equipment. (Three out of the four times I saw him, he played on a GC 4 1/2' x 9' set up for 1pocket -- he ran 100 each time.) And when I saw him, he wasn't even in his prime anymore. I can't imagine how he shot when he was younger, competing, and winning all his titles.
Lou Figueroa
Not to take anything from Mosconi, who was clearly the best of his era and probably the best of all time, but I've also been surprised by the talk of the 100 ball guarantee. I saw him twice, not long after his prime (around 1963 or 1964), and I don't think he ran a hundred either time. I'm not positive, though, I was a kid and my memory is hazy.
Once was when he played the Chicago city champion, a guy named Mike Stichauf, and George Fels apparently wrote about it in Mastering Pool (in the section on rhythm, I think - Stichauf was slow and Mosconi was frustrated with his slow play, counseling him that he would never be first rate unless he picked up the pace). I couldn't remember where it had taken place and asked George, figuring he must have been there - it was at a bowling alley.
The second time I was a vertically challenged kid (which I still am, though not a kid) and was surrounded by giants blocking my view in the standing room only pool room. Mosconi won both times, of course, but I don't remember a 100 ball run. The games were to 125 on both occasions.
I finally saw a 100 ball run when Jimmy Caras came to town and ran a perfect 125 and out against a local lamb led to the slaughter. A much smaller crowd for Jimmy but on this one I had a ringside location.
Once was when he played the Chicago city champion, a guy named Mike Stichauf, and George Fels apparently wrote about it in Mastering Pool (in the section on rhythm, I think - Stichauf was slow and Mosconi was frustrated with his slow play, counseling him that he would never be first rate unless he picked up the pace). I couldn't remember where it had taken place and asked George, figuring he must have been there - it was at a bowling alley.
The second time I was a vertically challenged kid (which I still am, though not a kid) and was surrounded by giants blocking my view in the standing room only pool room. Mosconi won both times, of course, but I don't remember a 100 ball run. The games were to 125 on both occasions.
I finally saw a 100 ball run when Jimmy Caras came to town and ran a perfect 125 and out against a local lamb led to the slaughter. A much smaller crowd for Jimmy but on this one I had a ringside location.
Mosconi
I had the opportunity (as "house man" in a Brunswick house) in 1961 to play Willie in a 14.1 match to 150 (I lost!). He did not run (either during the match or afterwards) a 100+ balls. After the match he immediately started his trick shot exhibition. (just a note, our match was the 1st public appearance after he consulted for the movie "The Hustler"). We played in Portland, OR. near the end of September, 1961. F.Y.I.
I had the opportunity (as "house man" in a Brunswick house) in 1961 to play Willie in a 14.1 match to 150 (I lost!). He did not run (either during the match or afterwards) a 100+ balls. After the match he immediately started his trick shot exhibition. (just a note, our match was the 1st public appearance after he consulted for the movie "The Hustler"). We played in Portland, OR. near the end of September, 1961. F.Y.I.
There have been others in recent times that could have been counted on for at least one 100+ ball run in an exhibition, but the most certain would have been Mike Sigel in the 1980's.
Former pro Rusty Miller often spoke of the time Mike gave an exhibition at the Mayfair club in New York City. I was not present, but the story goes that Sigel matched up against the best pool player in the club in a race to 100 and Mike ran 100 and out.
Shortly after the match ended, Rusty introduced Mike to former NYC mayor John Lindsay, who mentioned to Mike that he caught only the last part of his 100 ball run and wished he'd arrived early enough to see all of it.
Sigel's comment, according to Rusty, was "Want me to do it again?"
Honestly, on ordinary equipment, 100 was no big deal for the greatest straight pooler of that era. Still, only a few in history in their right mind would have guaranteed 100+ in a session lasting a few hours, and they wouldn't always have gotten it done.
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I'm just a young logical man but it makes perfect sense to me why all the other games can be mastered by the best but having vastly more experience in straight pool would make you superior to the less experienced because of the way the clusters break out. No other game requires that amount of experience. If Efren gave 14.1 exhibitions everyday he would be as good at that particular game. But he doesn't so he won't ever be as good. However all records are made to be broken.
I think Grady Mathews used to do exhibitions of straight pool and would tell the room owner that he would be willing to bet that he could run a 100 if he got paid double, and get paid nothing if he couldn't do it in a few tries.
Thorsten H. went nuts a couple of years ago in Europe and ran 125 and out in half his matches I believe.
Too lazy to double check right now...just worked 14 hrs and have cold Guinness beer as a much higher priority.
Thorsten H. went nuts a couple of years ago in Europe and ran 125 and out in half his matches I believe.
Too lazy to double check right now...just worked 14 hrs and have cold Guinness beer as a much higher priority.
I've seen Grady do straight pool exhibitions 5 or 6 times. The only time he didn't run 100 was when he was doing one with Varner and Varner beat him to it.
Leil Gay "JR"- He could whip off a hundered ball run at will.... I have probably seen him do it close to 20 times, and seen him do it 6 times in one day. I've seen him run 200+ 3-4 times.
Tom Karabotsos- I've seen him play twice and he ran a 100 each time.
Schmidty- I've seen him do it 3-4 times and really haven't seen him play straight pool all that much.
IMO, running 100 isn't really that hard for champions that "understand" how to play SP. JR once told me that if I came to Cleveland once a month for a three hour lesson he would have me running 70-75 pretty consistently within 3-4 months. He said it was all about learning how to move around the rack.
Also what you didn't mention is the difference in the quality of the balls used. The clay balls played a lot different then the balls of today. When I started playing there were still a lot of rooms using the old balls.
We would need someone here that played enough with both the new and the old to explain the major differences. That someone would have to be in their late eighties and into their nineties. I myself can't really remember much as to how they played since I was just starting to play when the newer balls were introduced. In either case I believe that the major difference would be in how they opened up after the break shots.
Well, I'm still a long way from 80s, but I'll give it a try.
The clay balls were much less lively - some say they were heavier??.
If you watch some of Willie's break shots in the montague from
'The Hustler' you can see he smacked the CB so hard, with so much
top spin, it would "climb" up the balls in the rack.
Lou has described watching break shots that had so much top spin, the CB
would hit the rack, bounce back several inches, then plow back into the
balls, spinning like a buzz saw and spreading the balls out even further.
Dale
Yeah I think Mosconi and the older players really learned how to break those packs and clusters up with the less lively clay balls, when they switched to the plastic balls it was easy for them. I saw Mosconi doing exhibitions with plastic balls and it was incredible how easily he went into those balls. It was like the cueball had a little motor inside it! It would just keep plowing through big clusters of balls like it had endless energy. I've never seen anyone come close to it since.
Have you seen Efren warmup? I think the differences are that clay weighs more on nappy clothe and spreads more true than the balls of today.True as in you can predict the destination of the balls more accurately. I looked up footage of that generation and the pockets are gargantuan. The balls moved very little after contact compared to the fast cloth of today and tighter pockets. If you are to compare, hands down its easier to pocket clay balls. The only test is to bring back material from that era and have a 14.1player run a few balls. I can only compare anyone with Efren in a sense that I have seen great players do great things these days...but he still is the best all around player ever. Incardone who have seen both mosconi ( i think) and efren has stated multiple times that efren is the best he has ever seen. One last thing; they both may have gotten as good as you can get regardless of the material they play on and only they know...because I hear there are only a few of those.
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It went something like this:
#####...The thing was, that to this day, I have never seen anyone else's cue ball do what Mosconi's would do when it hit the stack. His cue ball would literally fight its way through the balls like a salmon pushing upstream during spawning season. It was incredible the way it would muscle through the balls.
The extraordinary action Mosconi got on the cue ball -- when going through the pack -- was one of his trademarks. It was just so ridiculous to watch the cue ball keep pushing through a thick pile of balls, as if it had a tiny engine inside it. In fact, I know of one very young and impressionable fan who was so fascinated by the way Mosconi's cue ball behaved that, after one of Mosconi's exhibitions, he sidled up to the table ands appropriated Mosconi's cue ball (he always brought his own set of balls for his exhibitions) for further study and experimentation. That much older and wiser fan is, to this day, guilt ridden about that incident from his callow youth, but does display the cue ball on his study's "pool shelf."
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You can read more about the crime here:
http://goo.gl/DEgJr
Lou Figueroa