oh, good grief -- the man is shooting wing shots in that video.
He shot masse shots too during his exhibitions -- because of that are you going to claim he used a masse stroke/grip for shooting 14.1?
Lou Figueroa
Mosconi's slip stroke
- Thread starter Ed Wiggins
- Start date
oh, good grief -- the man is shooting wing shots in that video.
He shot masse shots too during his exhibitions -- because of that are you going to claim he used a masse stroke/grip for shooting 14.1?
Lou Figueroa
adding to the confusion
Tony,
I just watched that particular video. He is clearly slipping his hand back on the cue shooting the wing shots. He isn't later in the video. However, what he was doing there isn't the same as any other example of a slipstroke I have seen and isn't the slipstroke I am referring to Willie using in a somewhat later video.
I wouldn't call what he was doing shooting wingshots a slipstroke. It is too much different from any other slipstroke I have seen.
Hu
Tony,
I just watched that particular video. He is clearly slipping his hand back on the cue shooting the wing shots. He isn't later in the video. However, what he was doing there isn't the same as any other example of a slipstroke I have seen and isn't the slipstroke I am referring to Willie using in a somewhat later video.
I wouldn't call what he was doing shooting wingshots a slipstroke. It is too much different from any other slipstroke I have seen.
Hu
Hu, I'd agree that a slip stroke wouldn't compliment Mosconi's precise style of position play. Perhaps, when out of line, or needing to shoot a power shot or one at distance, he might have deployed a slip stroke. My point is that based upon 5% usage you cannot call Mosconi a slip stroke player, unlike Jimmy Moore and a few others.
Lou Figueroa
slipstroke
This is indeed a typical slipstroke. It is so small in this particular instance that it could be argued it was accidental, even might have been on this particular shot, but this is what a typical slip stroke should look like althoughit is more commonly about twice that much slip. Huge slip strokes existed but were uncommon.
Hu
This is indeed a typical slipstroke. It is so small in this particular instance that it could be argued it was accidental, even might have been on this particular shot, but this is what a typical slip stroke should look like althoughit is more commonly about twice that much slip. Huge slip strokes existed but were uncommon.
Hu
Sorry, I've always played with a slip stoke ( 50 = yrs ) and you got it backwards.
I slide my hand back while the cue is stationary, it gives you a longer follow through. Throwing your cue into the cue ball on your forward stroke is a f@#$%^g joke, try it.
I refereed an exhibition game that Mosconi played in about 1965, he ran 93balls in a game to 100 pts., he was not slip stroking that day.
Dale
as usual
Lou,
As usual, we are in full agreement. I wouldn't say Mr. Mosconi played with a slipstroke either. So tough to see that I can't guess the percentage of time he used it but particularly when he was playing well I would think a lot less than 5% of the time. As I have said enough times most on here are probably sick of reading it, watching Mr. Mosconi in some fairly early video taught me that a whole different level of position play was possible. I really believe that Willie went racks that day without the cue ball ever stopping a full ball away from where he intended for it to stop. I won't say that is impossible with a slipstroke but it doesn't lend itself well to that kind of precision speed control.
Hu
Lou,
As usual, we are in full agreement. I wouldn't say Mr. Mosconi played with a slipstroke either. So tough to see that I can't guess the percentage of time he used it but particularly when he was playing well I would think a lot less than 5% of the time. As I have said enough times most on here are probably sick of reading it, watching Mr. Mosconi in some fairly early video taught me that a whole different level of position play was possible. I really believe that Willie went racks that day without the cue ball ever stopping a full ball away from where he intended for it to stop. I won't say that is impossible with a slipstroke but it doesn't lend itself well to that kind of precision speed control.
Hu
No debating it based on the 1980 video.... If you have speakers on your PC turn up the volume really loud and you will hear his hand slipping on the linen...
The wing shots looked to be slip strokes in the earlier video but they were wing shots so maybe you can argue it was an ab-oration... I think most players are likely to hit wing shots pretty closely to their normal stroke since they require a good aim and good speed control...
Articles and account from people who played him have stated that he used a slip stroke but for some reason the debate goes on?
Seriously most of the people that watched him and don't recall the slip likely didn't have a clue as to what a slip stroke was back in the day... Thanks to the internet and the availability of knowledge most every pool player now knows what it is....
I'd chalk it up to revisionist memory.... They don't recall seeing it because they didn't know what they were looking at/for... SO he didn't use a slip stroke because they didn't "see" it.....
And as far as a slip stroke not lending to accuracy of straight pool? I have to assume this is an assumption/opinion.... As such it is understandable that many will disagree...
The slip amount has everything to do with the power needed.. In a finesse game like 14.1 where power is low a small slip added to a small backstroke would likely be more precise than a backstroke which moved the cue all the way back to where the hand slipped to... The distance from the cueball to the tip that the tip is moved is diminished so the hit on the cueball is likely going to be more accurate.....
The wing shots looked to be slip strokes in the earlier video but they were wing shots so maybe you can argue it was an ab-oration... I think most players are likely to hit wing shots pretty closely to their normal stroke since they require a good aim and good speed control...
Articles and account from people who played him have stated that he used a slip stroke but for some reason the debate goes on?
Seriously most of the people that watched him and don't recall the slip likely didn't have a clue as to what a slip stroke was back in the day... Thanks to the internet and the availability of knowledge most every pool player now knows what it is....
I'd chalk it up to revisionist memory.... They don't recall seeing it because they didn't know what they were looking at/for... SO he didn't use a slip stroke because they didn't "see" it.....
And as far as a slip stroke not lending to accuracy of straight pool? I have to assume this is an assumption/opinion.... As such it is understandable that many will disagree...
The slip amount has everything to do with the power needed.. In a finesse game like 14.1 where power is low a small slip added to a small backstroke would likely be more precise than a backstroke which moved the cue all the way back to where the hand slipped to... The distance from the cueball to the tip that the tip is moved is diminished so the hit on the cueball is likely going to be more accurate.....
Yes, wing shots....very different from playing 14.1 Did you read some of my earlier posts when I acknowledged that as an issue?
Please don't write words in my post for me. (sorta like putting words in my mouth) Now answer the question, does it appear that he is using a slip stroke on those shots?
Please don't write words in my post for me. (sorta like putting words in my mouth) Now answer the question, does it appear that he is using a slip stroke on those shots?
Thanks for the clarification, I have not seen as many videos of him playing as you have, and I have not seen another good example except for one shot on a video (breakshot if I remember).
I think it is very safe to say that he could do it, and his using it in match or exhibition depended upon what was needed in that situation.
I think the only way we will ever know the truth is for me to ask him, when I see him in the afterlife. I will be sure to haunt Lou after I find out. If he hears chains rattling, then Willie used a slip-stroke, if he hears a mournful wail, he didn't.
He can then get back on AZ and post the results of the haunting.
Does that work for you Lou?
I think it is very safe to say that he could do it, and his using it in match or exhibition depended upon what was needed in that situation.
I think the only way we will ever know the truth is for me to ask him, when I see him in the afterlife. I will be sure to haunt Lou after I find out. If he hears chains rattling, then Willie used a slip-stroke, if he hears a mournful wail, he didn't.
He can then get back on AZ and post the results of the haunting.
Does that work for you Lou?
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Maybe you didn't know what a slip stroke was back in the day, but I sure did. As teenagers, my buddies and I would fool around trying it out.
You also mention players and articles, but fail to cite any...
Lou Figueroa
I don't recall putting anything into your mouth, er posts.
Now what was the question again?
Lou Figueroa
Thanks for the clarification, I have not seen as many videos of him playing as you have, and I have not seen another good example except for one shot on a video (breakshot if I remember).
I think it is very safe to say that he could do it, and his using it in match or exhibition depended upon what was needed in that situation.
I think the only way we will ever know the truth is for me to ask him, when I see him in the afterlife. I will be sure to haunt Lou after I find out. If he hears chains rattling, then Willie used a slip-stroke, if he hears a mournful wail, he didn't.
He can then get back on AZ and post the results of the haunting.
Does that work for you Lou?
Works for me, Tony
Lou Figueroa
Post 39
I am starting to feel like Sam Kennison in "Back to School"......
Say it!.....SAY IT!
I am starting to feel like Sam Kennison in "Back to School"......
Say it!.....SAY IT!
Works for me, Tony
Lou Figueroa
Mr. Mosconi
Tony,
I watch every scrap of video I can find of Mr. Mosconi playing although you may well have seen much more and I was never fortunate enough to see him live. I had been playing pool seriously about five years when I saw an old match of Willie playing on TV. He was playing someone tall compared to himself, maybe Irving Crane or Luther Lassiter, I only remember they seemed tall and thin.
Up until then I thought I understood playing shape, I played area shape. Mr. Mosconi owned the cue ball that day and didn't hesitate to play position across the line of play to shoot through a keyhole to make his next shot. I was so impressed I spent the next two or three years focused almost solely on cue ball control and have studied any footage of Mr. Mosconi I have found since then.
To put it simply, Willie Mosconi changed my perception of what was possible on a pool table sometime in the early seventies. The same thing happened watching the video of Efren Reyes in the 2006 Derby one pocket semi's and finals. Nobody else before or since has done that so they tend to stand out. Far too late to try to copy Efren, I tried to copy Mr. Mosconi's game and even being a pale shadow paid off pretty well.
Hu
Thanks for the clarification, I have not seen as many videos of him playing as you have, and I have not seen another good example except for one shot on a video (breakshot if I remember).
I think it is very safe to say that he could do it, and his using it in match or exhibition depended upon what was needed in that situation.
I think the only way we will ever know the truth is for me to ask him, when I see him in the afterlife. I will be sure to haunt Lou after I find out. If he hears chains rattling, then Willie used a slip-stroke, if he hears a mournful wail, he didn't.
He can then get back on AZ and post the results of the haunting.
Does that work for you Lou?
Tony,
I watch every scrap of video I can find of Mr. Mosconi playing although you may well have seen much more and I was never fortunate enough to see him live. I had been playing pool seriously about five years when I saw an old match of Willie playing on TV. He was playing someone tall compared to himself, maybe Irving Crane or Luther Lassiter, I only remember they seemed tall and thin.
Up until then I thought I understood playing shape, I played area shape. Mr. Mosconi owned the cue ball that day and didn't hesitate to play position across the line of play to shoot through a keyhole to make his next shot. I was so impressed I spent the next two or three years focused almost solely on cue ball control and have studied any footage of Mr. Mosconi I have found since then.
To put it simply, Willie Mosconi changed my perception of what was possible on a pool table sometime in the early seventies. The same thing happened watching the video of Efren Reyes in the 2006 Derby one pocket semi's and finals. Nobody else before or since has done that so they tend to stand out. Far too late to try to copy Efren, I tried to copy Mr. Mosconi's game and even being a pale shadow paid off pretty well.
Hu
I don't think you could chosen anyone better to model your game after. I started much later in life then most, but the first pool book I ever bought was Willie Mosconi's On Pocket Billiards.
Still have it, and I think I will look through it this afternoon.
Still have it, and I think I will look through it this afternoon.
Evorlino also used it, both solid 14.1 players. I can't think of anybody today who uses it.
That's interesting. If you ever run into him ask him how he got started using the slip stroke. I've tried it but I can't make a ball with it.
I don't have any dog in this fight as far as whether or not Mosconi had a slip stroke but I really don't think this video is showing a slip stroke. What I think is happening here is Mosconi is doing what 99% of pool players do when they are holding their cue with one hand - they hold it closer to the balance point. Try it out yourself. It's just a natural thing to move your grip hand closer when it's not being helped out by the bridge hand.
So in the video Mosconi is shown doing wing shots. In between each shot he has to grab another object ball with his bridge hand. When he does this he naturally moves his grip hand up closer. He's doing everything so fast and comfortably that it appears he's using a slip stroke but really I think he's just regripping his cue while in the process of rolling out he next shot. This may appear almost the same as the slip stroke but I don't think their the same.
At least that's my theory.