Mosconi's slip stroke

played with a slipstroke a little awhile back

I have seen footage of Willie Mosconi using a slipstroke, beyond question. I have also seen a lot of footage when he wasn't using a slipstroke. The old school players usually didn't limit themselves to one stroke and used the stroke that was best or they liked best for a certain shot.

While I have seen monster slipstrokes an inch or two of slip is usually plenty and almost impossible to see from most angles.

Also, with a linen wrap it is quite possible to use s slipstroke with an open bridge, no gripping in the bridge hand required and certainly no deliberate tightening of a closed bridge during a slip. Add three or four inches of upward rake from the tip of the cue to the bumper as you will see many old school players shot with, even proponents of a "level" cue, and a slip stroke becomes very easy.

I am using the traditional definition of a slipstroke, slipping backwards at the start of the final backstroke so the tip fo the cue powers through the cue ball before the arm and grip leaving the same range of motion as the practice shots.

I find the slip stroke to still have value. A favorite time to use it is when the cue ball is near a rail and there is a lot of green between it and an object ball. It is nice to not have to make any changes at all between my practice strokes and my delivery other than the slightest release at the beginning of my final backstroke. This is one of the times I definitely recommend no pause at the end of the backswing on the final stroke, no change from the stroke you have carefully grooved in during your practice strokes.

The old players often had a pendulum, pump stroke, and slipstroke in their arsenal along with a few more tricks. I have never seen footage where I thought the slipstroke was Mr. Mosconi's primary stroke but he could certainly use it effectively when he wanted to. One note, it is extremely difficult to perform with a wrapless cue although I haven't tried powdering the grip area of my wrapless cue. The slipstroke might be one reason some players did powder the grip area of their cues.

Hu
 
lfigueroa said:
We had a long discussion about this in the 14.1 forum not too long ago. By the end, even Bob rolled over (sort of):

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=251005

Certainly, of those of us who saw him play in person, we did not see a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, I was in on that thread, LOL. Check out the video from the OP of Willie on "I've got a Secret". It starts at 6:15. To my eye Willie clearly employs a slip stroke on the first two shots - the break shot and the next ball in the side.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc&feature=feedf

As I said before, Willie is not the poster boy for the slip stroke and I know he didn't use it on every shot from what I can tell. But to me there is little doubt he did employed it on occasion.
 
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AtLarge said:
Slip stroke -- The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.

Stroke slip -- As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a "throw").
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By this defintion, I do both. I never even knew there is such a thing as a "Stroke Slip" Never thought about it. until I read this thread...I just try to play "natural". Everything is on the fingertips. I never, ever choke the chicken.
 
Great thread and great clips . My boy looked a little under the weather but I marked them in my favs till my uncle gets here.I want him to record them. This is a informative thread .
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Lou, I was in on that thread, LOL. Check out the video from the OP of Willie on "I've got a Secret". It starts at 6:15. To my eye Willie clearly employs a slip stroke on the first two shots - the break shot and the next ball in the side.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc&feature=feedf

As I said before, Willie is not the poster boy for the slip stroke and I know he didn't use it on every shot from what I can tell. But to me there is little doubt he did employed it on occasion.
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I saw that and referenced it in the other thread.

Lou Figueroa
 
pdcue said:
So Lou, what do you think it's going to take?

Dale(the other qualified observer)
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I dan't know, Dale, but I do know I've said just about everything I have to say on the subject. (I also think a couple of guys just like to yank chains, insisting just to get a rise :-)

Like I said, I saw him in person several times and watched him pocket hundreds of balls and he did not use a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa
 
Did Wilie slip or not?

I'm surprised this debate still has legs. I thought some of Willie's opponents described him as having a slip-stroke. I don't recall any of the names but I thought Onofrio Laurie was one.
 
Take another look at the video posted by the OP in this thread. I understand that it is only a few shots but that backhand sure looks like it is slipping back to me.

Do you think it is conceivable that he did things in his prime that he did not (or could not) do later in life.

The biggest problem with all of this is there is little video evidence of him playing in his prime.

We only have snippets of video now to review, and for those who were lucky enough to watch him in person, their own memories.

And no, I am not trying to get a rise out of anyone on this matter nor do I think others are either. Actually my only interest in this matter is that this small piece of video taken in 1945 shows Willie's stance much lower than the more recent clips of him playing much higher on the cue. Of course again this is just a small sample of shots. But you would think, that if he thought a high stance worked for him better, he might have done that in 1945. Did he? Just not enough evidence to prove it. IMHO


lfigueroa said:
I dan't know, Dale, but I do know I've said just about everything I have to say on the subject. (I also think a couple of guys just like to yank chains, insisting just to get a rise :-)

Like I said, I saw him in person several times and watched him pocket hundreds of balls and he did not use a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa
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Remember, one size doesn't fit all. Meaning that he used whatever stroke worked for that time.

Those that have seen him play in person and say he didn't use one makes me wonder if they were 100% of the time watching his stroke and all shots when he as playing and was at all the games he played.

They can only really say is that the times I was observing his stroke, I did not see him use a slip stroke. Which is not the same as that he never used one cause I never saw it.
 
I can't offhand, don't know if I can at all

lfigueroa said:
Hu, I have seen most of the available Mosconi footage and don't recall that -- could you please provide a specific reference?

Lou Figueroa
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Lou,

This was years ago. I don't know if I saved the link or if it is still good if I did. I was particularly looking for a slipstroke at the time. Willie might have been playing someone that used a slipstroke more often, I don't really recall. There was one sideview of Willie in particular that showed his hand slip back an inch and a half or two inches at the start of his backstroke and this was confirmed by the amount of wrap showing in front of his hand afterwards. I played with that little piece of video a long time starting, stopping, and replaying because I was working with developing a slipstroke myself just for grins. It's an art I would like to possess for no particularly good reason other than it is an art. I spent some time trying to break down exactly how a slipstroke worked and played the little pieces of video over and over that were clearly slipstrokes. I spent more time with video of the people that used it most of the time trying to see the exact mechanics of a release and regrip. The movement is so slight it is impossible to see in video.

I'll dig a bit trying to see if I saved a link to that video. I save a lot of links, far too many, but that one wasn't as helpful as others and I don't know if I saved it. None of the links were real helpful, several ways to achieve a slipstroke and all are very hard to see in action.

Hu
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Take another look at the video posted by the OP in this thread. I understand that it is only a few shots but that backhand sure looks like it is slipping back to me.

Do you think it is conceivable that he did things in his prime that he did not (or could not) do later in life.

The biggest problem with all of this is there is little video evidence of him playing in his prime.

We only have snippets of video now to review, and for those who were lucky enough to watch him in person, their own memories.

And no, I am not trying to get a rise out of anyone on this matter nor do I think others are either. Actually my only interest in this matter is that this small piece of video taken in 1945 shows Willie's stance much lower than the more recent clips of him playing much higher on the cue. Of course again this is just a small sample of shots. But you would think, that if he thought a high stance worked for him better, he might have done that in 1945. Did he? Just not enough evidence to prove it. IMHO
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My feeling is that it is not legit to take a couple of shots like that and make the case for Mosconi's slip stroke. To me, it'd be like someone saying:

Hey! Did you know Mosconi was actually a left-handed player? Yep. Forget about the fact that the vast preponderance of available video shows him shooting right handed. Forget the books that show him shooting right handed. Ignore all the eye witnesses who saw him shoot hundred of balls in person and claim he was a righty because RIGHT THERE on that "I've Got a Secret" video clip you can see at 7:20 and 7:35 that he was a lefty.

Lou Figueroa
 
I believe that I wrote that in my own way, we have a small sample of shots on video. I also believe that eyewitnesses who seen him play in the 60's and 70's are seeing a much different version of the man from the 40's.

In the clip provided by the OP does it appear that he is using a slip stroke? Yes or No.



Here is the link in case you missed it.
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/billiards-champ-entertains




lfigueroa said:
My feeling is that it is not legit to take a couple of shots like that and make the case for Mosconi's slip stroke. To me, it'd be like someone saying:

Hey! Did you know Mosconi was actually a left-handed player? Yep. Forget about the fact that the vast preponderance of available video shows him shooting right handed. Forget the books that show him shooting right handed. Ignore all the eye witnesses who saw him shoot hundred of balls in person and claim he was a righty because RIGHT THERE on that "I've Got a Secret" video clip you can see at 7:20 and 7:35 that he was a lefty.

Lou Figueroa
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didn't suit Willie's game

lfigueroa said:
My feeling is that it is not legit to take a couple of shots like that and make the case for Mosconi's slip stroke. To me, it'd be like someone saying:

Hey! Did you know Mosconi was actually a left-handed player? Yep. Forget about the fact that the vast preponderance of available video shows him shooting right handed. Forget the books that show him shooting right handed. Ignore all the eye witnesses who saw him shoot hundred of balls in person and claim he was a righty because RIGHT THERE on that "I've Got a Secret" video clip you can see at 7:20 and 7:35 that he was a lefty.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou,

The slipstroke didn't suit Willie's primary game of close play and tight cue ball control. While I'd say that Willie had the slipstroke in his arsenal I'd also guess that he used it well under five percent of the time, probably less than someone comfortable shooting left handed shoots lefty. To make matters tougher trying to prove it on video, the longer shots that Mr. Mosconi didn't shoot that often anyway don't lend themselves to a view from the side being a good camera angle to see the shot. I have watched full video's of Jimmy Moore and other people who used a slipstroke often and never saw a clear example of a slipstroke.

I think it would be a lot more accurate to say that Willie could and did occasionally use a slipstroke than to say he played with one. Best I recall when I was searching for slipstroke examples I saw one clear example of Willie using it(my opinion) and several times it looked likely but the camera cut or something else kept me from being absolutely certain. The motion of someone's arm is identical using a slipstroke or not making it hard to see the slight smooth movement of a typical slipstroke. Two inches is plenty of slip and that might well occur over six inches of backstroke. The cue doesn't usually remain motionless while the hand slips back although it is motionless at the start of some player's slip.

Hu
 
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