Most common types of spin used
- Thread starter Bob Jewett
- Start date
Kind of makes me curious...when CJ was here regularly, he was always promoting his Touch Of Inside, and if I recall, he was claiming that most pro's used it, or a variation of it, more than anything else.
This admittedly small analysis doesn't align with that.
This admittedly small analysis doesn't align with that.
Zerksies
Well-known member
You can hit the ball a few ways and still end up in the same spot. It's one of them feel things. My draw shot isn't that great today so I'm doing follow or tomorrow the follow isn't that great so i'm drawing the ball.
Accidental - #1 type of spin used in my case.
Before I saw bob’s chart, I would have bet low outside was the highest. His chart corroborates.
If you watch some Efren matches, you’ll see low inside. The draw will wear off by the time it hits, but that’s how he hit the cb.
Hitting on that vertical center as a “standard to teach for as many shots as possible” to me is about the worst advice in pool. Almost as bad as don’t drop your elbow.
If you watch some Efren matches, you’ll see low inside. The draw will wear off by the time it hits, but that’s how he hit the cb.
Hitting on that vertical center as a “standard to teach for as many shots as possible” to me is about the worst advice in pool. Almost as bad as don’t drop your elbow.
Yeah, right….. if we were to watch his famous match vs Mizerak, and did the same analysis that Bob did, I’d bet dollars to donuts it won’t follow his “promotion”.
The creator of the iCue practice/training ball (Thomas Van Eck) did something similar in developing his product. But he didn't do an inside vs outside, which I think is valuable. Looks like he also counted kick shots. He was really only interested in spin vs no spin, since so many people think professionals stay on the vertical axis. I wish these people actually would sit at a match and chart it. The players I've heard people say hit "closer to center more often" are Buddy and JL Chang, both of whom actually often go so extreme that it looks like they should miscue.
Thomas says he's charted over 15 professional matches.
sure pros use more english at times than most players should. big reason is they can use it and not miss the shot. where as regular players will hit more or less and be erratic on it and will miss the shot because of that more often.
with little or no english, if you hit the spot which makes your ball it goes every time. it has to. but with english on it, you can hit the spot and have put a little too much or too little and cause it to miss the pocket. that is a very important difference in center and english.
with little or no english, if you hit the spot which makes your ball it goes every time. it has to. but with english on it, you can hit the spot and have put a little too much or too little and cause it to miss the pocket. that is a very important difference in center and english.
I think it’s more correct to say that better players use more English, no matter what skill level. It’s not like good amateurs shy away from English. There is a progression, and theoretically as one gets better at stroking straight, one gets better at applying English. For someone who can stroke straight and make every shot with vertical center, it would be very odd for that player somehow not to incorporate English by that time.
I find that the people who mostly miss with English also miss with vertical center more often than a “better player.”
Agreed.
… but those people miss much more often when using sidespin than they do when not using sidespin, and they miss much more often than the pros miss when using sidespin, especially with large amounts of sidespin. But even the pros miss more often when using sidespin than they do when not using sidespin (for shots of similar cut angle and distance). A sidespin shot is much more difficult to aim due to how net CB deflection varies so much with shot speed, shot distance, and the amount and type of spin.
Regardless, one should use sidespin whenever it is required or whenever it provides an advantage, but not if you are very likely to miss the shot (due to lack of practice with how to aim when using sidespin over a wide range of shots).
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I still can't believe the amount of players in this thread that think vertical center "should" be the way to play, unless absolutely spin is needed. That's directed to you too, Dr Dave
Have you never watched a pro match? Come on.
The layout of the balls dictate how to run out, and what spin is needed. Not the skill of the player. If the player is not skilled enough to use ALL spins at ANY time, he will simply not run out. Period.
Have you never watched a pro match? Come on.
The layout of the balls dictate how to run out, and what spin is needed. Not the skill of the player. If the player is not skilled enough to use ALL spins at ANY time, he will simply not run out. Period.
And boy oh boy, did anyone bring up skid? Or how center ball shots result in a thick hit? I had one last night in a tournament. Slow speed high only in the side. I said to myself I better hit this a bit with inside so it doesn't go fat, or figure out a way to go up and down table (there was traffic). Against my better judgment, I did not. I hit it slow and high, and missed it fat by a mile.
Pros don't play these shots because they have inherent friction problems. Spin solves all of this.
I stand by playing center ball as a first choice is as bad of advice as pinning one's elbow.
Pros don't play these shots because they have inherent friction problems. Spin solves all of this.
I stand by playing center ball as a first choice is as bad of advice as pinning one's elbow.
If we're talking about <300 Fargos, I'd argue that there isn't a significant miss ratio. But on the other hand, at this level, striking the vertical center isn't guaranteed either.
On the surface, it seems this would be true. But watching the pros, I would rarely attribute their miss to "english made this a tougher shot." The pros are using english so often, more than half the shots by any reasonable observation. I'd like to see data.
I think this is perfectly stated, but I think some posters will pick and choose the wording and twist it all up. "Whenever it provides an advantage" - I think better players willl shoot or practice enough with english such that they will more and more understand where "provides an advantage" is, the better they get. Unfortunately, those who stick only or more with the first part of "whenever it's required" while staying with the mantra of "stay on the vertical center" aren't going to get enough practice and real play time to truly understand where the use of english "provides an advantage" even if it isn't "required."
Hypothetical question? Given ball in hand on the money ball, what spin?
I suspect that 9-ball has something to do with it.
9-ball on a 9-foot table generally has room to maneuver between interference. 1-ball every 4½ sq ft.
8-ball on a 9-foot table has nearly 2× the number of balls on the table (1-ball every 2.7 sq ft.) and requires more control maneuvering. On the other hand there are more <legal> things to shoot at--and that may cancel the disadvantage.
9-ball on a 9-foot table generally has room to maneuver between interference. 1-ball every 4½ sq ft.
8-ball on a 9-foot table has nearly 2× the number of balls on the table (1-ball every 2.7 sq ft.) and requires more control maneuvering. On the other hand there are more <legal> things to shoot at--and that may cancel the disadvantage.
I still can't believe the amount of players in this thread that think vertical center "should" be the way to play, unless absolutely spin is needed. That's directed to you too, Dr Dave
Did you see this in my post above:
Stop shot (low spin hit point, vertical centerline). But that's for a perfectly straight shot with BIH. No one that can run a rack hardly ever plays a cut angle with zero spin.
It's still wrong. The way you word things its implying that vertical centerline is the primary choice.
Change it to what McCready used to write here 20 years ago. (paraphrasing from memory): "You have to be able to play all over the cue ball."
Or change it to: "vertical centerline hits are used almost exclusively for perfectly straight or near perfectly straight-in shots; where the player is drawing straight back, following straight forward, or playing a stop shot. For almost all cut shots encountered during a typical game, some amount of sidespin is used."
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