My 40 Gripes that damage pool

Hawkeye

Hi,

Here's a couple videos I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHmNptGpO44

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOSt8noE4xc

First one is an example of hawkeye technology in practice, the second one appears to be a more how-to-do-it type of a video.

The hawkeye has been used in snooker broadcasts for some years now, and I for one enjoy what it has to offer. Especially in safety play, it's great to have the players (cue ball) perspective on the shot.

Hope this helps.

J.S.

Would love to see a link to something on youtube or the net in general that shows the technology.

Pat at Accustats has his own personal wizard, Merlin no less, who may be able to figure it out.

Maybe it's something that wouldn't break the bank.
 
J.S.

All Hawk-Eye systems are based on the principles of triangulation using the visual images and timing data provided by at least four high-speed video cameras located at different locations and angles around the area of play.[2] The system rapidly processes the video feeds by a high-speed video processor and ball tracker. A data store contains a predefined model of the playing area and includes data on the rules of the game.

I think that's gonna be a long time coming until the purses for pool start to rival snooker.

I am pulling numbers out of my arse at this point, well into a bottle of crown, but I "think" the last I heard the high speed cameras were > 10k a pop. Dr Dave can likely give us a better idea. If he does if will be that x 4......... and for Hawkeye they apparently are fixed so you can't dbl their use for following players....
 
i know the solution and its game i play alot...anyone ever hear of Honolulu...its a game that is played with all 15 balls but in order to pocket any ball it MUST made with a carom, a kick, a bank, and combos, and you have to do this 8 times...the other thing is to bring back straight pool...i don't care that its not fast for tv, hell golf isn't fast either. but just like the cameras switch for one player to the next we can switch from one table to the next. and the fighting rule should definitely be brought in...everyone loves a good fight on football and you have your occasional arguments in golf, why not pool...
 
#8 How about allowing the player to ask the opponent to play again after a foul or allowing a free ball, meaning the player can play any ball on the table as the ball on for the next shot then back into the original sequence.
 
Ways to save pool from becoming extinct.

As I read these posts on how to make our sport thrive the main problem seems to be that pros can't make a living at pool unlike some other sports.
Maybe instead of predicating all of our ideas about how to change our sport so that a handful of people can make a decent living, maybe we should be thinking of how to make the game more enjoyable for the hundreds of thousands who work and have money to spend and will never win a tournament.
This means take out the 4" pocketed tables.
If you want to leave 1 ultra hard table in the room , fine , but making all your tables impossible to play on except for pros is a bad business idea in my mind.
I also wonder if pool rooms had a player who gave lessons to beginners and intermediates on slow days would help people to want to spend more time there because they are improving.
Local tournaments in most places I also think need rethinking , you have the same few people who win every week and people lose interest.
We need an accurate nationwide rating system and if you get caught manipulating the system you are severely punished.
Either by being made to sit out for a time increment or possibly never allowed to play in the participating tournaments again.
As in other posts , this isn't about me or what I want, it's about what you think is good or bad for our sport.
 
As I read these posts on how to make our sport thrive the main problem seems to be that pros can't make a living at pool unlike some other sports.
Maybe instead of predicating all of our ideas about how to change our sport so that a handful of people can make a decent living, maybe we should be thinking of how to make the game more enjoyable for the hundreds of thousands who work and have money to spend and will never win a tournament.
This means take out the 4" pocketed tables.
If you want to leave 1 ultra hard table in the room , fine , but making all your tables impossible to play on except for pros is a bad business idea in my mind.
I also wonder if pool rooms had a player who gave lessons to beginners and intermediates on slow days would help people to want to spend more time there because they are improving.
Local tournaments in most places I also think need rethinking , you have the same few people who win every week and people lose interest.
We need an accurate nationwide rating system and if you get caught manipulating the system you are severely punished.
Either by being made to sit out for a time increment or possibly never allowed to play in the participating tournaments again.
As in other posts , this isn't about me or what I want, it's about what you think is good or bad for our sport.

I have read thousands of posts on this forum over the last few years. This is my favorite. Thank you. My hat is off to you.

You should use your real name as a handle.
 
We used to have weekly tournaments all over town that were the nuts until they had to get rid of the Calcutta. Now you can make more money working for a few hours than if you happened to snap it off
 
Not sure how they killed the Calcuttas... Have been several places that they tried to kill them around here and we simply turned it over to someone that wasn't part of the ownership/management of the room. We just don't advertise it anymore and the man never shows up to check it out...
 
Build form bottom up if if you want to build. I feel that I'm an average player and couldn't give a flying 'you know what' if it gets big at the professional level. I've been playing off and on for 50 + years. It's a game or sport for participants not spectators.

We play this game up until the day we die. I mean that literally here at Lizard Acres. Who can say that about football, basketball, baseball, tennis, or even golf. I love the Steelers but I'll play pool if I can before I sit on my butt and watch them on TV.

And speaking of being a spectator ,I'd rather watch Big Truck's stream of
a weekly 200 buck added B tourney in Cajunville, La. or Lenny's stream of a couple of guys I can recognize beating their heads together for 100 bucks a set at Kolby's then some pasteurized, homogenized top player in a final nine ball event on ESPN ( except for a few players with some personality)

And that folks is MNSHO !!
 
As I read these posts on how to make our sport thrive the main problem seems to be that pros can't make a living at pool unlike some other sports.
Maybe instead of predicating all of our ideas about how to change our sport so that a handful of people can make a decent living, maybe we should be thinking of how to make the game more enjoyable for the hundreds of thousands who work and have money to spend and will never win a tournament.
This means take out the 4" pocketed tables.
If you want to leave 1 ultra hard table in the room , fine , but making all your tables impossible to play on except for pros is a bad business idea in my mind.
I also wonder if pool rooms had a player who gave lessons to beginners and intermediates on slow days would help people to want to spend more time there because they are improving.
Local tournaments in most places I also think need rethinking , you have the same few people who win every week and people lose interest.
We need an accurate nationwide rating system and if you get caught manipulating the system you are severely punished.
Either by being made to sit out for a time increment or possibly never allowed to play in the participating tournaments again.
As in other posts , this isn't about me or what I want, it's about what you think is good or bad for our sport.

IMO - You are "on the money" with this post.
 
We used to have weekly tournaments all over town that were the nuts until they had to get rid of the Calcutta. Now you can make more money working for a few hours than if you happened to snap it off

That goes back to one little pool room owner in West Texas because he got mad that nobody wanted to play in his shit hole of a room and called the TABC.
The law? The law In Texas could care less. The TABC Does. They control Liquor license and scare the hell out of owners. I have spent probably 12 hours on the phone with them!
 
#8 How about allowing the player to ask the opponent to play again after a foul or allowing a free ball, meaning the player can play any ball on the table as the ball on for the next shot then back into the original sequence.

Snooker, which has a free ball, has been doing a lot of experimentation this year.
In an upcoming tournament they will be using ball in hand like pool.

Tournament snooker has a thing called the miss rule where the incoming player has the option of putting back in the opponent who missed a ball to try again, after the all balls have been replaced. Time consuming :D
They have an official using video overlay to direct the referee so the balls are positioned precisely.

So far, snooker hasn't gone for bigger pockets :D:D:D
 
Over here in the States, we used to point to Snooker as a model for success -- lots of money in tournaments, lots of TV coverage, a very popular and substantial "sport" in the public eye. Now they're struggling, too???
 
Randy, I looked all over the BEF site and found nothing on people to make presentations to school boards. Can you point me to that info? I'm sure others would like to know also.

Oh-oh, gripe #41. Why aren't the BEF nationals held in a pool room with 20 some like 9 footers? The rooms are the ones that help develop these kids and then the tournament is held at a university. I imagine qualifying rooms would love to bid for a chance to have a full room for a week during the summer.

Hi Wags

Some of the BCA Instructors have undertaken this task. I have all the info on my desk, just call Laura at BEF and get your booklet.

Laura can answer this better than myself.....BUT
1. Kids need supervision.
2. Dorm rooms are available
3. Alcohol is a factor.
4. Universities are available during Summer months.

Gripe on my friend
SPF=randyg
 
Over here in the States, we used to point to Snooker as a model for success -- lots of money in tournaments, lots of TV coverage, a very popular and substantial "sport" in the public eye. Now they're struggling, too???

There are many more tournaments this year, and more international competition, because of the promotion by Barry Hearn.

On the Snooker Scene blog today, in a column on Steve Davis 30 years ago:

He became a magnet for trophies, and money too: the old guard who played snooker when there was hardly any financial reward in the game, scratching around the exhibition circuit for a living, must have looked at Davis in awe and disbelief: how could anyone possibly become a millionaire out of the sport?

The answer, of course, was through his on table dominance and the off table savvy of Hearn, pushing lucrative sponsorship contracts his way and, in helping to create the soap opera that was the 1980s boom, ensuring new tournaments, more prize money and a bucketful of personal appearances.


http://snookerscene.blogspot.com/

Now. when TV is overrun by amateur contests of every kind, a weekly pool shoootout might find an audience.

The 2010 Border Battle tournament used a shot clock and a match time limit.

Such a format would fit TV requirements, if the participants were groomed to express themselves clearly and present themselves attractively, not in T-shirts and scruffy jeans. Would U.S. players submit to such coaching?:D

Pool needs a promoter, just as snooker did 30 years ago.
 
Build form bottom up if if you want to build. I feel that I'm an average player and couldn't give a flying 'you know what' if it gets big at the professional level. I've been playing off and on for 50 + years. It's a game or sport for participants not spectators.

We play this game up until the day we die. I mean that literally here at Lizard Acres. Who can say that about football, basketball, baseball, tennis, or even golf. I love the Steelers but I'll play pool if I can before I sit on my butt and watch them on TV.

And speaking of being a spectator ,I'd rather watch Big Truck's stream of
a weekly 200 buck added B tourney in Cajunville, La. or Lenny's stream of a couple of guys I can recognize beating their heads together for 100 bucks a set at Kolby's then some pasteurized, homogenized top player in a final nine ball event on ESPN ( except for a few players with some personality)

And that folks is MNSHO !!

I agree 100% I want to know what you can do for me here...the local player. Yes, it would be awesome to see pool big again everywhere else, but that isn't, and won't ever be, me.

These regional tournaments need people like me and the other average players out there if they want to succeed. Yet, the players in these tournaments (take the Desert Classic Tour in Arizona for example) ridicule and almost discourage players from playing. These tournaments need players like me and shouldn't be pushing us away.

Things change, times change. You can't keep doing things the old way...you have to find a way to appeal to players like me...the APA is doing that...mock them if you may, but they have found aniche to get a ton of people playing the game. Those people don't worry about diamond tables or whether or not the cloth was changed this month...they go out and play and enjoy it.

There is a lot to learn about going out and having fun...which is what pool is about anyway.
 
My 40 gripes

I apologise to the OP , I was reading his post when I started to answer and realised I should probably make it a seperate thread. Somehow I failed to do it correctly.
As to using my real name, many people on here know who I am.
I have stated that I collected billiard books and I really don't want to have someone who thinks I would keep rare ones at my house, break in and harm my wife.
 
I have just a couple of thoughts on this:

First, there are way more than 50 guys that can win a professional pool tournament, especially if you are talking about a race to 7 or 9 in nine-ball. I mentioned this in a previous thread but I will say it again - Races to 7 or 9 in nine-ball are a joke. They prove absolutely nothing when you are talking about world class players playing against each other.

I really think Americans are still drawn to excellence, no matter what the endeavor is. Golf grew immeasurably since Tiger has been on the scene. I believe this is because of his excellence on the links. I don't even play golf but I have been known to watch on the Sunday of a major tournament. I also even watched a little bit of the Tour de France this past year. I mean seriously, I watched cycling for pete's sake. I don't even like to say that out loud but I was drawn to the excellence of Lance Armstrong.

So what's my point? It is just about impossible to distinguish the top pros from each other due to the format (races to 7/9 in nine-ball) so they need to do something different. I think they need to mix in maybe 4 invitational only tournaments a year, where they have long races and the cream actually gets a chance to rise to the top. Only the best 16 men get invited. If someone manages to win a couple of these he will be able to advertise himself as the best player in the world. People will begin to take notice.

Now as far as growing pool from the bottom up is concerned, how about utilizing a handicapping system for all the weekly tournaments? Similar to the way the APA has a system (I don't know the in's and out's of their system). Everybody starts using this same handicapping format and you can more easily find a weekly tournament to play in. Seems like most of the little tournaments are now being handicapped, but of course all of them use a different system. If you show up for a tournament you haven't played before you will definitely not be assigned the proper handicap. I don't know how much this would help pool overall, but it would be fun to have a national handicapping system for tournament play.

Just thinking out loud.
 
This article is meant to cause controversy ...
2. Compared to other major sports, overall, pool is a lower purse sport that is dependent upon entry fees to make the purse.
If you look at bicycle racing, there are far fewer $ paid out per-entrant than pool. A local weekend event might have 12 races of 50+ people each and only 1/6 will have cash prizes. $25 entry per-race and first will only be ~$300, paying to 5th @ $25.

Guaranteed, more people ride bikes than play pool.
 
This article is meant to cause controversy and I hope there is a lot of it. These opinions and conjectures are from 45 years of playing the game and watching it go downhill due to shortsighted visions by people that can make a difference. I am old enough now to not care about whose toes I step on or if they are idiots in my estimation. I do care about this game and if I can change a few minds and outlooks then I’ve accomplished something.

My observations:
1. Of the approximately 50 million pool players in the United States, only .0001% (50 players) have a chance of winning a Pro tournament. Most tournaments are won by only 10 of those 50.

This is a fallacy. Beyond that statsically what are the odds of any of the 30 million basketball players to play in the NBA? Of the 50 million golfers to win a major or even make the cut to play in a pro event.

2. Compared to other major sports, overall, pool is a lower purse sport that is dependent upon entry fees to make the purse.

You can't compare pool to any "major sport", pool isn't even really a minor sport and most people don't think of it as a sport at all. And some sports don't pay as much prize money as pool does yet incur larger expenses to participate in them.

3. Better players want “perfect” conditions in which to play. “Perfect” conditions apparently are very tight pockets, new cloth, fast rails, absolutely true roll, etc.

This is a problem why?

4. Better players want to take the “luck” factor away. Please name a sport where luck is NOT a factor.

None. But all sports seek to reduce the luck as much as possible.

5. The professional game for spectators is boring. There is no “WOW” factor, except for SVB never missing a jump shot, the amazing Efren Reyes, Alex Pagulayan having fun and the antics of Earl Strickland.

Pool competes with so many other distractions that even if the players were Bunjee jumping onto the table for each shot pool would still have just a tiny tiny market share as far as viewership goes.

6. The Break is too big? It is, only in the pro and top amateur game.

Actually, Accu-Stats proved that the break isn't as "big" as people believe it is.

7. Lesser players (as opposed to pros) are needed in tournaments to increase the purse size.

Without sponsors to pick up the bill the prize money has to come from somewhere.
8. The “ball in hand” rule is too huge of penalty.

What's the solution?

9. The game is not better or worse depending upon the equipment used. It is just played with different strategies.

How is this bringing pool down?

10. Pool Rooms that don’t have a junior league system are dumb. Where are your next players coming from?

Agreed. Some states and cities have laws forbidding minors from going into pool rooms that serve alcohol.

11. The BEF needs to hire a full-time presenter and team up with table/cue/accessory manufacturers to persuade school systems into the lifetime sport aspect of pool.

Agreed. The BEF/BCA has no money. Why don't we have our own grassroots volunteer organization to do these things? Because everyone wants someone else to do it.

12. The majority of players just want to make the ball.

Um, ok.

13. There are no current hard statistics to be found on playing ability (with the exception of the IPT).

AccuStats. League ratings. Not for lack of trying though as many people have tried to do pool stats over the years.

14. The IPT tournaments caused more excitement in pool and brought more players back to pool since “The Color of Money”.

Um, not really or it would still be in business.

15. Media coverage for pool sucks.

There is nothing to cover. Pool is fringe activity. People in general are not intrested and uninteresting things don't get covered.

16. There have been no technological advances for broadcast media specifically for pool in decades. (If there ever has been any.)

Huh? Obviously you have missed the Mosconi Cup and snooker coverage.

17. There is no real men’s tour because they can’t get along and do what is good for the game.

Something like that among other things.

18. The WPBA is falling apart because they can’t get along and do what is good for the game.

Something like that among other things, which includes a worldwide financial meltdown two years ago that forced everyone to rethink their spending, including casinos.

19. What is good for the game will be good for the professional players.

Will it?
20. They don’t make the cups smaller in golf for the pros.

And they don't make them bigger for the amateurs either.

21. Why is most of the industry table specifications based around those 50 players?

Who says they are? Have you read the only "industry" table specs any time lately?
22. There are shot selections that can’t be considered with the 4.5 inch pockets that are reasonable with larger openings.

Have you ever watched snooker? Even now when snooker is declining it still has far larger purses and far larger audiences than pool events. They haven't suffered because of tiny impossible pockets. A snooker pro considers 4.5" pockets with straight cut corners to be like throwing a bb into the ocean.

23. I see players who can’t make straight in punt shots espouse the virtues of tight pocket tables. (Monkey see, monkey do.)

So what?
24. No matter the table set up, (pockets, cloth, etc.) the better player is always the better player even if they lose 1 in 20 because the table isn’t to their satisfaction.

This has what to do with the state of pool?

25. Why do manufacturers allow their products to be sold on the internet undercutting the room sales which the room needs to keep in business? Without the room, there is no business.

Because room owners won't stock. Accessory sales are just a part of the room's revenue, a small part. Any room owner can compete EASILY with the internet. Nothing is stopping them from offering the same goods at the same prices but with personal service. I personally feel that if rooms would set up their own websites and put all the products on there and have a kiosk set up right there on the counter with that website available to all with a huge banner sayign that they will match any price found on other sites then they would sell a lot more and put a hurting on the internet only stores.

26. By my count using the Yellow pages, in 2003 there were approximately 5000+ rooms. Currently, there are about 3500 rooms.

And? There are also less video arcades, internet cafes are gone, go kart tracks are down, etc... etc..... video game console sales are up, so is participation in online games, such as World of Warcraft and online poker. Poker rooms are up. Ebb and flow.

27. If the BCA is now currently a trade organization by their own admission. Why are they allowed to choose players that represent the U.S. in world events?

Because the BCA funded the WPA and as such is the North American representative of the WPA.
28. The BCA strayed from its historical mission by becoming a trade organization. STUPID. This move has caused much disarray in pool.

Yes they did. But as I recently found out they did put a lot of the money they earned from the trade show into other programs to try and promote the sport. Once the trade show revenues fell so did the available money. Another issue is the lack of insurance. No one will insure the billiard industry. So without being able to buy into group insurance the BCA lost the majority of room owner members and with it their membership fees.

29. Valley Tables/Leagues and the creation of the John Lewis run BCA (not BCAPL) pool leagues were two of the best things that happened to pool.

And those things still exist. One of the few bright spots left in pool. Not exactly a good example of what's wrong with pool.

30. In 1986, Resorts, Int. in Atlantic City put on the first “Last Call for 9-Ball” tournament and had 364 players. Last year’s US Open only had 237 entrants.

So what? Actually the last US Open had a full field didn't they? DCC in January gets more players in each division than the 1986 event and has done so every year since it's inception 12 years ago. And the Last Call for 9 Ball had some movie money being tossed around as well.

31. No smoking laws put a hit on the pool rooms. There is nothing that can be done now, the laws are hardly going to be repealed especially over the plight of such low status pool rooms. Deal with it and go after the new customers.

Some rooms have stayed successful despite those laws.

32. New customers will not stay if they can’t make balls.

33. According to the Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association (SGMA) study in 2008, Billiards/Pool ranked 10th in the country for participation at some 17,178,000 players that averaged playing 13 days a year. .

And this means what?

34. Participation growth is stagnant or in decline.

And? Too many other things to do in life besides play pool.

35. I get sick when I see a BCAPL player go to the national tournament, play on a Diamond table, hit a long rail ball into the 1st diamond by the pocket and can’t figure out why it isn’t going.

Huh? So you're saying Diamond is a reason pool is dying?
36. I don’t like the way the game is played today.

Ok. Well that's it right there, that's why pool is declining.

37. Every game on TV has stats and player background to back-up the announcers ---except pool. Did Accu-stats forget their mission? Player stat sheets should be part of every tournament and sent in to an independent national entity. Players then ranked by the hard stats.

I think Pat Fleming found a better way to make money. And he was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2008 because of it. Again you are asking for something that requires a ton of work and no one wants to pay for it. NO ONE.

38. I hate when I hear someone say the cure that pool needs is another blockbuster, epic movie. A movie would help the pool business but wouldn’t cure ills.

Really? The last blockbuster did WONDERS for the sport. Pool rode that wave for 15 years.

39. All the “fighting” rules need to be changed.

Lost me on this one.
40. Grow pool from the bottom up, not the top down.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. How do you suggest that this be done?
 
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