O'tay! Things are going to start happening for me now. :idea: :yeah:
My theory on Deflection
- Thread starter nineballsafety8
- Start date
O'tay! Things are going to start happening for me now. :idea: :yeah:
I prefer to play with LD shafts and have now for many years. I disagree with your premise that there isn't an optimum shaft for a given player (that we will eventually totally adjust to any shaft's squirt as well as any other). Some people do not adapt well to both high and low squirt shafts.
Despite this, I admire the fact that you did what you did, created a high squirt shaft and spent some time adapting to it and reported your findings. This is the kind of thing that gives credibity to your opinion.
Squirt is just one of several major factors that should be involved in a player choosing a shaft.
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RBC
Deceased
To the OP
While I understand what you are trying to communicate, and it's a positive, I also have say that what most understand from your posts is that no one should spend money on LD cue shafts. And that's a negative.
I'm glad that you've found what made you happy. I'm also glad that we have helped thousands of others find what makes them happy. Of course, I'd like to see everyone playing with an OB cue, but I would never tell anyone that they simply can't be their best without it.
As for John's performance when he was playing with our products, I think the record can speak for itself. Just go back and take a look for yourself. He won quite a few TAR matches and tourney's when he was playing with our stuff. Certainly more than he did before or after. Sure, I heard what he said on TAR, and there are many other things he's said that would contradict that statement as well. I think his record speaks for itself. John is a great guy and an even greater player. His talent will never cease to amaze me.
All in all, I think your intentions, to tell people to practice and don't jump around on equipment is very good advice. Just make sure that's the message that's coming across, and not some bashing something message.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
While I understand what you are trying to communicate, and it's a positive, I also have say that what most understand from your posts is that no one should spend money on LD cue shafts. And that's a negative.
I'm glad that you've found what made you happy. I'm also glad that we have helped thousands of others find what makes them happy. Of course, I'd like to see everyone playing with an OB cue, but I would never tell anyone that they simply can't be their best without it.
As for John's performance when he was playing with our products, I think the record can speak for itself. Just go back and take a look for yourself. He won quite a few TAR matches and tourney's when he was playing with our stuff. Certainly more than he did before or after. Sure, I heard what he said on TAR, and there are many other things he's said that would contradict that statement as well. I think his record speaks for itself. John is a great guy and an even greater player. His talent will never cease to amaze me.
All in all, I think your intentions, to tell people to practice and don't jump around on equipment is very good advice. Just make sure that's the message that's coming across, and not some bashing something message.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Royce,
As I said when Shane commented earlier in the thread, if it came across as bashing, I apologize and that was not my intent at all.
OB makes a fantastic product, and I have heard literally NOTHING negative about them (outside of opinion about feel... maybe twice. No other shaft I can think of can compete with that rep).
My intent was on mid to upper level players committing to their equipment and putting in the time at the table.
So if I portrayed that poorly, I apologize.
Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2
To be fair, I think I voiced that opinion much stronger than the OP and with all due respect, it's a negative certainly from the perspective of anyone who sells those $200 plus dollar shafts.
On the other hand, it is a positive to anyone who wants to save money. It's a positive if anyone wants to be en-lighted to the fact that everyone doesn't believe the hype and as usual there's more than one side to the story.
If a cue is invented that totally eliminates deflection no matter how you hit it, I'll be the first in line to buy one, but when they merely deflect differently than standard maple shafts, I think voicing that is anything but negative.
Forget LD shafts for a moment. Just in the world of standard shafts there is a wide range of different deflection. Shaft diameter, taper, ferrule, tip, weight, balance and I'm sure many other factors can change the characteristics of standard shafts.
The same BTW is true for LD shafts. Think about it people, different companies, different designs different woods, diameters, all the same stuff, all result in different deflections within the LD shaft family. Don't anyone for a moment think that if it's an LD shaft it is the same as all other LD shafts. This one is better, no this one is better, no this one ... Bahhh ...
Play with a cue, get used to it and just play pool. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.
If you want to go out and spend your hard earned money on these things at least do it being aware that there is more than one opinion on their usefulness. Nothing negative there unless you are the guy making them.
There are plenty of multiple 100 ball runners, world champions and killer road players that never used LD shafts.
There are also plenty who didn't until they got sponsored and then switched and adjusted and play perfectly with them. Pool players will continue to search for the holy grail until the end of time. The key is dedication, determination, natural level of ability, and hours of practice.
So you don't pound it into the rail 18 inches from the pocket, you pound it into the rail 6 inches, or 4 inches away from the pocket. Or shoot ..... 3 inches to the OTHER side of the pocket.
That will change as soon as you adjust to your new LD shaft. Wait ... adjust? Yeah, that's where we came in to this discussion. We're still adjusting.
I"ll give you this ....Custom cues and custom shafts may effect some players psychologically. If they think they are playing better with something then they will.
But that can also work with a 50 cent rabbit's foot if they believe.
Bingo. It's not that difficult to understand.
Again, this is what you thoroughly don't understand. Stay with me now. How can it be "hype" as you call it, if scientific evidence exits that clearly shows the cue ball deflects less than a standard maple shaft. That is not "hype", it is a fact.
Whether or not you wanna pay $200 for the honor of not having to adjust less when using English is your call completely. But to call it "hype" clearly demonstrates you have zero knowledge of the subject, and you have convinced yourself that it is some marketing trick to pull cash from folks.
I know two great players (shortstops/master level players) that play on my team, and one uses LD and one does not. I have no problem with the guy that uses a sold maple shaft, and I don't think his cuemaker "ripped" him off by selling him a shaft that is highly deflective
Well, I have a couple of nice Schons, Leon Sly's, Brunswick conversions, Dale Perry's.
A few others.
I could pick any up and play a decent game with any of them. Thats why I hung onto them. The very few that I sold, I just didn't feel comfortable with them as I do these.
But, the one cue that I have always came back to and played with for long periods of time, is my Meucci PP 1 with a Black Dot.
I can put that one in my case at any time and have a good game with it.
The one that I am currently using is some sort of Predator, something K 7, can't remember. I picked that one up for $200 sans shaft, had it refinished and got 3 Players HXT shafts for it.
As far as I know, this will be my long term player. We're talking an 1100 dollar cue with the shafts and I am not quite so sure that it plays better than my $180 EBay Meucci.
If I was told that I could only keep one cue, It would take me a serious long time to choose between my Meucci, a Schon with original shaft, Brunswick, or even my Balabushka Tribute cue. I wouldn't want to be put in that position.
Often thought about thinning the Herd as they call it but just can't think of one that I would part with at the moment.
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LD Shaft
Does anyone else want their cue to play how the professional cue builder intended? I don't mind the thought of putting a LD shaft on a off the shelf production cue that is turned out by the 100's or 1000's or on a cue butt the LD shaft manufacturer made, but it would feel sacrilegious to screw a LD shaft onto my daily player which is a Runde.
As a cue dealer, I do let new players know what their options are and that they may want to start with a LD shaft as they don't have to "relearn" for lack of a better term to shoot with one and it may be easier to learn the game with more margin for error in their stroke. However if they want a great cue for the money, I will recommend a Schon. If a Schon is out of the price range or a LD shaft is a requirement I would recommend a Pechauer with their own LD shaft or a Jacoby Hybrid.
My business partner has been playing 20 plus years, the same as me, and he loves his Jacoby Hybrid Edge/Schon Unique butt combo. The first time he tried the Hybrid shaft his Predator went back in the case to never be seen again, very similar to how his Schon shafts went into his case when he got the Predator shaft. I tried a OB shaft on a Schon I own and it shot fine, a good friend has it on his Schon now, but I liked how it hit with the original Schon shaft better. To each his own, some people just like one better than the other and that is fine by me. Hell buy both from me and you can let me know which you prefer and why.
Does anyone else want their cue to play how the professional cue builder intended? I don't mind the thought of putting a LD shaft on a off the shelf production cue that is turned out by the 100's or 1000's or on a cue butt the LD shaft manufacturer made, but it would feel sacrilegious to screw a LD shaft onto my daily player which is a Runde.
As a cue dealer, I do let new players know what their options are and that they may want to start with a LD shaft as they don't have to "relearn" for lack of a better term to shoot with one and it may be easier to learn the game with more margin for error in their stroke. However if they want a great cue for the money, I will recommend a Schon. If a Schon is out of the price range or a LD shaft is a requirement I would recommend a Pechauer with their own LD shaft or a Jacoby Hybrid.
My business partner has been playing 20 plus years, the same as me, and he loves his Jacoby Hybrid Edge/Schon Unique butt combo. The first time he tried the Hybrid shaft his Predator went back in the case to never be seen again, very similar to how his Schon shafts went into his case when he got the Predator shaft. I tried a OB shaft on a Schon I own and it shot fine, a good friend has it on his Schon now, but I liked how it hit with the original Schon shaft better. To each his own, some people just like one better than the other and that is fine by me. Hell buy both from me and you can let me know which you prefer and why.
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Great post!
One can hit a million balls and learn to recognize the geometry of the shot at hand and improve, but that can cost a lot of money in table time. One can learn/adopt an aiming system that can accelerate the learning process. Like PJ proffered, the double distance method is parsimonious and is easy to grasp if one can send the CB to that aim point (DD) or ghost ball that can be effective but harder to visualize.
The closer one can get to the aim point or ghost ball with less compensation for squirt, the easier it is to send the CB to that aim point or GB when English is necessary to achieve the desired position for the next shot. Whenever one applies English to the CB, there will be some squirt - less for a low deflection shaft and more for a standard 13mm shaft.
A center CB hit may be the same for all shafts, and one needs to compensate for CIT with respect to the actual geometry of the shot at hand i.e. the half OB hit should achieve a 30 degree cut angle, but it is a few degrees less because of CIT and compensating for that can/must be learned...or not.
One can achieve the geometrically cut angle when aiming CCB by applying top or draw, but if you use outside English to achieve the geometrically correct cut angle, you must compensate for squirt which is a smaller distance to the outside with a LD shaft than a larger distance with a standard 13mm shaft.
But...you all knew that.:thumbup:
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Got that from a members Sig Line. I kinda like it.
SVB does use an LD shaft. The Cuetec R-360 has a LD shaft on it. Johnnyt
I love my ob ill never play with another shaft ever idc what it is my game has done nothing but inprove I have nothing but good things too say about them I tried too play with just maple house cue tonight hated every shot that's just me and for me its ob for life lol
Read that back to yourself. Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds? Adjust less. In other words you’re still going to miss if you aim at the pocket, just differently. Differently than what? Differently than a standard maple shaft? Differently than some other LD shaft?
You make it sound like there is a conscious and discernable physical measurable adjustment being made with a standard shaft that isn’t being made with an LD shaft. Bullsh!t.
There shouldn’t be any conscious physical adjustment being made with either shaft once you are used to any shaft. You aim and deliver the CB and pocket your shot.
I said before that within the realm of standard shafts, taking into account tip, taper, diameter, ferrule type, ferrule length, balance, weight, and I suppose another dozen variables there will produce differences in deflection.
The same is true of all the same factors with LD shafts of different types and mfg.
Now, with all those variables, with both types of shaft, with all those options, don’t you suppose there may even be an overlap in how they hit, or how they deflect?
I’ll bet there are some of both type shafts that feel and deflect similar to some of the other type shafts.
The real point is it doesn’t matter. I don’t care what the hell you or anyone else buys, it just pisses me off that they have the balls to charge 2 or 3 hundred dollars for a chunk of wood.
Oh, wait, you’re not only paying for the wood, you’re paying for the R&D, that BTW, failed. Ya see, they still deflect. Oops, we better call them “low deflection” shafts. People will still buy them, not to worry. Sucker born every minute.
Hey … do what ya want. But if you go buy these gimmick shafts, I got a piece of 30 dollar chalk for ya too!.
Shane plays with a LD shaft and so does Earl Strickland. Shane started using one in 2009. LD shafts make inside English shots much easier.
Another thing I've noticed is that players that don't play at a certain level truly believe there isn't a difference between regular and LD shafts. And some you can't convince. It blows my mind.
RBC
Deceased
I think we might be misunderstanding each other a little bit.
I believe that it's ok for anyone to have an opinion, and to voice it if they choose. I certainly believe that I have the right to voice my opinion, and I think doing so, whatever side you fall on, is a positive thing.
I also think it would be very wrong for me to come on and here and say that everyone should see it my way. Obviously, if I think it's ok that everyone has the right to their own opinion, then I can't expect everyone to believe the same as I do. So, if I did expect everyone to believe as I do, then it would be wrong, a negative.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, so the same thing applies to everyone. If you don't like a particular product, that's fine. Tell the world that you don't like that product. You should even say why you don't like it, if you wanted to. But, to expect the world to not like that product just because you don't, in my opinion is wrong.
As for the whole "hype" argument, I'm still not sure where that really comes from.The word "Hype" can mean to advertise or promote. I don't see that as a bad thing. I mean, all products are advertised, promoted, marketed, etc. It can also mean to advertise or publicize intensively, often exaggerating it's merits. This we simply don't do. Nor do any of the other reputable LD manufacturers that I'm aware of. It seems as though we get the criticism for doing the latter when in fact we really do the first.
So, as I stated earlier, I'm happy with you or anyone sharing their opinion, as I am happy sharing mine. I, however, won't think that someone else is wrong if they don't agree with me.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
JossWest was charging $300.00 for a one piece Maple shaft. Many of the high end cuemakers get around $200.00. Do you whine about them also?
How much did you pay for your last pair of tennis shoes? What do you think they cost to make?
As for cost, since you have no idea the cost/time involved in making them you have no idea whether they are over priced or not. Your price arguments are off the mark, must have been your aim.
Just curious, what is it that you produce?
I also get emails from customers telling me their game has jumped by switching to my LD shafts, such as this - "The SS360 shaft is by far one of the best investment I have made when it comes to playing pool. As an APA player, my skill level went from a 4 to a 7 in 9 ball within 6 months playing with this shaft. I was also awarded Top Gun in my division this past season. It has a nice solid feel to it and it just feels natural and well made. I had a much easier time adjusting to a low deflection shaft with this than my previous Asian made one. Sold that in a heart beat. I highly recommend this shaft if your looking for a high quality, bang for the buck U.S. made LD shaft."
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With all due respect to you, it sounds like you do not know when deflection / squirt happens, and which shots are effected by deflection and which are not. I bet you $100.00 if i give you four shafts to play with and each one deflect different, you will choose the one in the middle and avoid one that has high deflection, but once you know what deflection is you will choose the one with lowest deflection. You need to shoot on snooker table or very tight pocket to know the huge difference between a LD and HD. I wish i can show you one day.
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