My Visit To The IPT Office And Conversation With Deno Andrews

[TX Poolnut]

The part I did not understand is that you state that there are 6 groups of 25 players with 2 days of Round 1 whereas on the IPT site, it states 25 groups of 6 players with 3 moving on for Day 2. So they would need far less tables. Am I missing something?

I think you misread the IPT site. Yes, I stated there are 6 groups of 25 players with two days of round 1.

It doesn't say 25 groups of 6 with 3 moving on to DAY 2. It says 25 groups of 6 players with 3 moving on to ROUND 2.

Round 2 starts on the third day.

 

[jay helfert]

Not sure what you meant with this. Here's what I found on their website:

Round 1
Monday and Tuesday 10am - LEVEL A - Match Times: 10am, 12:30pm, 3pm, 5:30pm, 8pm
150 Players start the tournament playing in 25 groups of six players each. The top three players from each group advance to the next level. The 75 players in Level A who do not advance to the next level earn $3,000 each.

I have only one question for you Linda. Will you and Mike go to Chicago if you haven't been paid from Reno?

 

[jay helfert]

My thought exactly. I worked for Nabisco when it was bought by Kraft Foods. I never missed a paycheck thru the entire buyout.

If going to Europe means that a tournament payout is held up, he should have stayed in Chicago. Him being in Europe had nothing to do with the payouts not being disbursed. Excuses, excuses.

He didn't want to be around to take the flack. He's probably had to hide from a few people in his life.

 

[Johnnyt]

Maybe Mike S. could shed some light on all this. Opps I haven't heard or seen him lately. Johnnyt

 

[grisbe]

Has anything been written in Billiards Digest or the other pool magazines about any of this? Where is Mike Geffner's column when you need it?

 

[jjinfla]

Hey Debra,

The only way the KT is going to get out of these payments is, if the IPT goes under, then, he can just write it and everyone else off.

.

DUH.


They only need 25 tables. 6 x 25 = 150

Anyone ask Gregg Sullivan if he is going to Chicago?

Just how much of a loss is he willing to absorb?

They have to keep up the pretense of solvency right up until they go to court and tell the bankruptcy judge that they can't make it and need "relief" from the court.

Your heart tells you it is over. I hope you tell that to all those IPT friends you have. They might think highly of your opinion and get false hope from your statements. Later they will be asking you why you didn't tell them if you knew more. Might not be fair to you but of course you know that will happen. Seems like you placed yourself in a no win situation.

You are right about unloading your truck and bringing the contents in. That can only be done by Union handlers. Didn't realize that it was that high though. It didn't apply to our train club when we were there in 1985. We were allowed to bring in all of our equipment by ourselves. But we were not selling, or showing items for dealers, just presenting a model train demonstration for the paying customers. So there was an exception made in our case. There are always exceptions.

Jake

 

[jjinfla]

Has anything been written in Billiards Digest or the other pool magazines about any of this? Where is Mike Geffner's column when you need it?

They are running scared.

Most of this happened after their last deadline I suppose.

So when is the deadline for their next issues? I expect the filing of bankruptcy to be filed shortly after that. Good a guess as any I suppose. Makes sense to me.

Air America has filed for bankruptcy so all of their creditors are stuck for the bills owed them. All those high priced contracts that the announcers have are now null and void. I think Howard Stern was on there with a few million dollar contract. Hope he got a good advance. I am sure he did. He is no dummy. LOL

 

[NYC cue dude]

Mike geffner isnt really writing for them anymore. He is in upstateny, sports writing for a paper.
Eydie, thanks for your work in trying toget some answers. It is my feeling, though, that regardless of what is actually going on there, you will only get the info that they have been authorized to release.

As far as deno is concerned, if you lay down with pigs.......

I will do my damndest, if and when this fails, try to assert my influence to all my contacts to have deno BLACKBALLED from this entire industry.

We only go around in this world once, and what is most important in the end is what kind of person that we are. Speaking for myself, you couldnt pay me ANY amount of money that would force me to compromise my own integrity. Deno must know what is happening. If he doesnt know, then he should apply pressure to find out and remedy this non payment issue. If he is met with resistance, he should RESIGN, and promptly have a confrnece call with all billiards media that is willing to listen.

Until then, deno is no better than kt.

rg

 

[LAMas]

The part I did not understand is that you state that there are 6 groups of 25 players with 2 days of Round 1 whereas on the IPT site, it states 25 groups of 6 players with 3 moving on for Day 2. So they would need far less tables. Am I missing something?

Linda,
You have been to Las Vegas and Reno and for 200 players there were many tables. I agree that there are 25 groups of 6. I agree with TX that of the 6 players that they can't play themselves so that makes 15 matches per group of 6 (1X2,1X3,1X4,1X5,1X6,2X3,2X4,2X5,2X6,3X4,3X5,3X6,4X5 4X6 & 5X6). So 15 matches divided by the 5 start times = 3 tables per group or 3 tables x 25 groups = 75 tables.

Let the other logical posters pile on.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Linda,
I agree that there are 25 groups of 6. I agree with TX that of the 6 players that they can't play themselves so that makes 15 matches per group of 6 (1X2,1X3,1X4,1X5,1X6,2X3,2X4,2X5,2X6,3X4,3X5,3X6,4X5 4X6 & 5X6). So 15 matches divided by the 5 start times = 3 tables per group or 3 tables x 25 groups = 75 tables.

Your math is correct. However you're forgetting that the first round is played over two days. Therfore, they will be only doing 1/2 of the 375 matches on the first day. Or you could say they will only need 1/2 of those 75 tables for the first day. That would be 38 tables. Just what I've already said.

The second day, they will finish off the first round using 37 tables.

38 + 37 = 75 Basically, you're saying exactly what I've already said, so I guess we agree. The will use 75 tables over the course of 2 days. 38 on round 1, day 1 and 37 on round 1, day 2.

So the most they will use in any one day is 38 tables.
They could do all of round 1 in a day if they had 75 seperate tables, but that's not what the IPT website says the plan is.
Anyone pulling their hair out yet?

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Anyone pulling their hair out yet?

....YEP.....

 

[Tarantula]

150 players arranged into 25 groups of 6 players

Linda,
You have been to Las Vegas and Reno and for 200 players there were many tables. I agree that there are 25 groups of 6. I agree with TX that of the 6 players that they can't play themselves so that makes 15 matches per group of 6 (1X2,1X3,1X4,1X5,1X6,2X3,2X4,2X5,2X6,3X4,3X5,3X6,4X5 4X6 & 5X6). So 15 matches divided by the 5 start times = 3 tables per group or 3 tables x 25 groups = 75 tables.

Let the other logical posters pile on.

150 players arranged into 25 groups of 6 players:

Each of the 6 players will play 5 opponents, which equals to 30 matches per group. 30 matches times 25 groups equals 750 matches in round 1! Or am I missing something here?

 

[Roadie]

Mike geffner isnt really writing for them anymore. He is in upstateny, sports writing for a paper.
Eydie, thanks for your work in trying toget some answers. It is my feeling, though, that regardless of what is actually going on there, you will only get the info that they have been authorized to release.

As far as deno is concerned, if you lay down with pigs.......

I will do my damndest, if and when this fails, try to assert my influence to all my contacts to have deno BLACKBALLED from this entire industry.

We only go around in this world once, and what is most important in the end is what kind of person that we are. Speaking for myself, you couldnt pay me ANY amount of money that would force me to compromise my own integrity. Deno must know what is happening. If he doesnt know, then he should apply pressure to find out and remedy this non payment issue. If he is met with resistance, he should RESIGN, and promptly have a confrnece call with all billiards media that is willing to listen.

Until then, deno is no better than kt.

rg

Why wouldn't you do your best, with all of your influence, to try and see that the players get paid. What positive good comes from asserting that you will use your influence to "blackball" someone?

I suspect that Mr. Andrews knows full well that he is in a precarious situation with respect to his reputation within the billiards industry. With all due respect though Mr. Goldwater, the billiards industry has not provided Mr. Andrews with all too lucrative employment throughout his career. I am not so sure that he would be seeking employment therin anyway.

Perhaps you could provided a qualified attorney to represent the players and ask Mr. Trudeau to provide the funds and a verified guarantee of funds. The players probably would not mind giving up a percentage of the prize fund to cover legal fees for such a guarantee.

Why aren't you using your influence to have Mr. Behrman or his son Brady blackballed? Have they not done the same in not paying players?

Mr. Goldwater it is clear that you have much disdain for Mr. Trudeau. Perhaps the best way to exact pennance upon him is to be the person who stands up to him. It is clear that the players do not have that capacity as individuals and apparently also not as a group. You are, by reports, a millionaire. You are also a self admitted pool fanatic who has by your own account staged a tournament primarily for your own entertainment. Once again, I appeal to you to turn your passion into positve engagement and use your resources to wards accomplishing a positive outcome.

To Eydie Romano, I applaud your efforts on behalf of all of us and the players affected to attempt to answer lingering questions. Perhaps through more positive activism a proper win/win solution can be achieved.

 

[TX Poolnut]

150 players arranged into 25 groups of 6 players:

Each of the 6 players will play 5 opponents, which equals to 30 matches per group. 30 matches times 25 groups equals 750 matches in round 1! Or am I missing something here?

Now I know why high school math teachers are so frustrated at our youth. You are completely wrong. Your math isn't even close. No soup for you! Come back 1 year!

Draw out a 6 by 6 grided box like the IPT has during their online coverage. How many matches are there in a 6 man round robin? 15. There are 36 boxes, however each match takes two boxes in the grid and there are 6 that are blacked out because you can't play yourself.

Multiply the number of matches per group (15) times the number of groups (25) and you get the number of matches played in round one 375, which will be played over the course of 2 days, Monday and Tuesday. Roughly 1/2 of the 375 matches will be played on day 1 (190 or so). There are 5 time slots that matches will start. Divide the number of matches on day one (190) by the number of time slots (5) and you get the number of tables that are needed (38) on day one, round 1. Day two has 185 matches divided by 5 time slots and we come to the need for 37 tables on day two, round 1.

All together now...MATH IS FUN!!

 

[Tarantula]

Now I know why high school math teachers are so frustrated at our youth. You are completely wrong. Your math isn't even close. No soup for you! Come back 1 year!

Draw out a 6 by 6 grided box like the IPT has during their online coverage. How many matches are there in a 6 man round robin? 15. There are 36 boxes, however each match takes two boxes in the grid and there are 6 that are blacked out because you can't play yourself.

Multiply the number of matches per group (15) times the number of groups (25) and you get the number of matches played in round one 375, which will be played over the course of 2 days, Monday and Tuesday. Roughly 1/2 of the 375 matches will be played on day 1 (190 or so). There are 5 time slots that matches will start. Divide the number of matches on day one (190) by the number of time slots (5) and you get the number of tables that are needed (38) on day one, round 1. Day two has 185 matches divided by 5 time slots and we come to the need for 37 tables on day two, round 1.

All together now...MATH IS FUN!!

Haha, ur right, I should have done a grid, but it's too late, too tired!

 

[Snapshot9]

I believe

they had 60 tables starting out to begin the first 2 days of play, and
reduced them back during the week. It was not a ready-set-go thing.
They staggered players in groups to play among the 5 different playing times during the day. I believe 4 players within a group were playing on 2 different tables during any one time period during the day.

That takes up 50 tables, and leaves 10 for practice or whatever.

 

[ScottW]

they had 60 tables starting out to begin the first 2 days of play, and
reduced them back during the week. It was not a ready-set-go thing.
They staggered players in groups to play among the 5 different playing times during the day. I believe 4 players within a group were playing on 2 different tables during any one time period during the day.

The past two events have been *200* people - 150 card holders plus 50 folks who won qualifiers. If they had tried to play everyone at the same time, that'd have been 100 tables. As round 1 took two days, it's a fairly safe bet to say they only really needed 50 - half the matches one day, half the other.

The Chicago event is just the 150 card holders. 75 tables max, and if they split round 1 over two days again, then they only really need 38 tables (well, 37.5, but who wants to play on half a table?).

Hence, the fewer number of tables required.

 

[LAMas]

Your math is correct. However you're forgetting that the first round is played over two days. Therfore, they will be only doing 1/2 of the 375 matches on the first day. Or you could say they will only need 1/2 of those 75 tables for the first day. That would be 38 tables. Just what I've already said.

The second day, they will finish off the first round using 37 tables.

38 + 37 = 75 Basically, you're saying exactly what I've already said, so I guess we agree. The will use 75 tables over the course of 2 days. 38 on round 1, day 1 and 37 on round 1, day 2.

So the most they will use in any one day is 38 tables.
They could do all of round 1 in a day if they had 75 seperate tables, but that's not what the IPT website says the plan is.
Anyone pulling their hair out yet?

Ahh yes the 2 day thing. Thanks it's been fun though.

 

[TX Poolnut]

The past two events have been *200* people - 150 card holders plus 50 folks who won qualifiers. If they had tried to play everyone at the same time, that'd have been 100 tables. As round 1 took two days, it's a fairly safe bet to say they only really needed 50 - half the matches one day, half the other.
The Chicago event is just the 150 card holders. 75 tables max, and if they split round 1 over two days again, then they only really need 38 tables (well, 37.5, but who wants to play on half a table?).
Hence, the fewer number of tables required.

Your math is wrong. The number of tables would have been less. Let's do the equation.

First the problem. With 200 players playing in 40 round robin groups of 5 using 5 different starting times over the course of one day, how many tables would the promoter need?

OK, in a group of five, there are 10 matches. Multiply that number (10) by the number of groups (40) and you get the number of matches in the round (400). Divide that number (400) by the number of starting times (5) and you get the number of tables needed to complete the day on time (80).

Since the first round was actually 2 days at both Vegas and Reno, they only needed 40 tables per day to complete day 1, round 1 and day 2, round 1.

Math is fun!

 

[ScottW]

I wasn't worrying about how many matches were being played at the same time.

I clearly said "if they wanted to play everyone *at the same time*".

200 people = 2 per table = 100 tables.
If they simply split it up even between two days, 50 tables.

But - if the schedule was lighter than that - as you laid out - then yeah, they'd need fewer tables.