Nature vs Nurture: New study in favor of Nature

iusedtoberich

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http://www.economist.com/news/scien...cal-ability-dna-practice-may-not-make-perfect

We in the pool forums often cite the "10,000 hours of practice makes you an expert" viewpoint. The above article disputes that. Article text copied/pasted below. Interesting article...





Practice may not make perfect

Musical ability is in the DNA
Jul 5th 2014 | From the print edition

TO MASTER the violin takes 10,000 hours of practice. Put in that time and expertise will follow. This, at least, is what many music teachers—following Malcolm Gladwell’s prescription for achieving expertise in almost any field by applying the requisite amount of effort—tell their pupils. Psychologists are more sceptical. Some agree practice truly is the thing that separates experts from novices, but others suspect genes play a role, too, and that without the right genetic make-up even 20,000 hours of practice would be pointless.

A study just published in Psychological Science, by Miriam Mosing of the Karolinska Institute, in Sweden, suggests that the sceptics are right. Practising music without the right genes to back that practice up is indeed useless.

Dr Mosing drew her conclusion in a time-honoured way—by studying twins. She and her colleagues surveyed 1,211 pairs of identical twins (who share all their genes) and 1,358 pairs of fraternal twins (who share half) born between 1959 and 1985. They asked each participant whether he or she played a musical instrument or actively engaged in singing. Those who did were asked to estimate how many hours a week they had practised at different ages. From this Dr Mosing was able to calculate a score for each individual’s lifetime practice. Anyone who did not play an instrument or sing got a score of zero.

Next, Dr Mosing tested her volunteers’ musical abilities. Doing this by conducting recitals would be impossible. It would be hard enough to quantify the relative merits of people playing the same instrument, let alone to compare the skills of, say, drummers with those of saxophonists or singers. Instead, she used three proxy tests.

The first measured a person’s ability to detect differences in pitch. Each participant heard two notes. Sometimes the second was different from the first. Sometimes it was not. Participants had to say whether the second was higher or lower than the first, or the same.

The next test, of appreciation of melody, asked people to distinguish between two sequences of four to nine notes, in which one sequence would sometimes differ from the other in the pitch of a single note. The final test, of sensitivity to rhythm, required volunteers to decide whether two sequences of five to seven notes with the same pitch, but possibly different time intervals, were indeed the same or different.

Expert musicians are exceptionally good at detecting differences in pitch, melody and rhythm in these sorts of tests. Dr Mosing therefore expected to find that if someone had put in sufficient practice time his musical ability would be as high as an expert’s. But that was not true. In fact, there appeared to be no relationship between practice and musical ability of the sort she was measuring. A twin who practised more than his genetically identical co-twin did not appear to have better musical abilities as a result. In one case the difference between two such twins was 20,228 hours of practice, even though the pair’s measured musical abilities were found to be the same.

That is not to say practice has no value. Playing an instrument and singing are physical skills, and do take a long time to master. But, though the experiment could not measure this directly, it is a fair bet that only those with high musical ability in the first place can ever hope to master these skills—and Dr Mosing has shown that musical ability has a big genetic component.

One other curious fact to emerge from the study was that the practice of practice itself seems to be under genetic control. Even allowing for counter-examples such as the identical twins with a 20,000 hour difference in their lifetime practice regimes, such twins are more similar in their attitudes to practising than are fraternal ones. For children who find practising the violin a chore, this may be the study’s most useful result. When asked by their teachers why they have not practised during the previous week, they can now blame their genes.
 
No one denies that a person can have more or less physical ability. That's abundantly clear when we see retarded individuals or those with clear physical disabilities. Of course there are people who have perfect pitch or who can see better, or those who can naturally sing.

The point of the 10,000 hour "rule" which isn't a rule, was that WORLD CLASS performers, were shown to have practiced and developed their skill over a period of ROUGHLY 10,000 hours compared to their lesser skilled peers.

NO ONE was found who was world class who had far less time invested. That was the point.

Is aptitude and physical ability a prerequisite? Sure of course it can help.

But is musical mastery DENIED to people who can't hear the differences in notes as well as others or at all?

That is unclear. Is pool mastery denied to physically capable people who have normal vision?

No, it's not. Not in my opinion. I have yet to see any shot that I cannot master if I put enough time into it.

Is there an intangible that prevents me from being a world class player OTHER than the desire and ability to deeply practice?

Perhaps, maybe I am mentally incompetent where it counts. Maybe....but ONLY until I put in the hours of truly dedicated practice would I know it or not.

I don't think it's a "fair bet" that those with no musical abilities as defined in this study as being able to discern notes, are forever denied musical mastery. They might need to work harder to develop the skills they need to compensate but I firmly believe any person of sound mind and body can master any instrument they choose to try to master.

If I were a billionaire this is exactly the type of research I would fund just to see what happens.
 
To prove your point... I tried for many years to get better on the Pedal Steel Guitar. While I could play well along with a band, I could not compose or do much concert play. However, as I have grown older (without an instrument), I have come to realize that a great deal of what I was missing, somehow has become an understandable part of my knowledge.The pieces of the puzzle I could not find are very easily understood now.

I am doing some soul searching about getting another Steel Guitar, to enjoy in my old age, I'm 71.

About my pool game. In reality, I have found that adding pieces of the puzzle along the way, has added some of the stepping stones, to my ability to learn & play Pool.

There are many ingredients to many an endeavor, some learn quickly, some learn over an extended period of time. The problem I see about time, is that when you can learn and/or play at 71, you can't play very long. No stamina.

Good Luck to all. Hang in there, we all know that knowledge is power (in many forms).
 
Bob Jewett also just wrote an article on "The Sports Gene" for Billiard Digest. That book also disputes the 10,000 hour rule (which isn't a rule).

Bob cites the example of a short high jumper who overcame what many would find to a be severe limitation, his height, to become a world class and world champion jumper vs. a basketball player who on a dare tried high jumping and within 6 months was competing at a world class level.

My thought is that the basketball player already had ten thousand hours put into "jumping" and was already an athlete so while it is an example of someone reaching world class in way for less than 10k hours it's more of a crossover thing than a from scratch thing.

Kind of like Rhonda Rousey going from Judo to MMA. She was already a world class judoka with a bronze at the olympics before going into MMA. Well, if you spend 10,000 hours building cabinets then you damn sure have a head start of you decide to build pool cues in my opinion.
 
Is it just me or does that study seem like a complete waste of time? They followed these identical twins all that time only to come up with those tests at the end of it -- how odd.

I'm not a musician so maybe you can deduce a lot just based on those tests but I would think someone could simply listen to music all their lives and have a good ear for it and be able to detect some of those differences in pitch.

I would hope that they did some follow up tests with the twins that had the 22,228 hour practice differential to see if their "measured" musical abilities were really the same. Something tells me they are not.

Keeping this pool related -- I'm trying to come up with an analogy...

In the pool world this would be like having someone grow up watching 14.1 for thousands of hours and becoming a fan of it but NEVER playing it. Then you take someone that has played it for thousands of hours and you come up with a test where they have to pick out the correct pattern -- only to be shocked that the non player was as good or better than the actual player. Nevermind actually testing their playing ability.
 
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Is it just me or does that study seem like a complete waste of time? They followed these identical twins all that time only to come up with those tests at the end of it -- how odd.

I'm not a musician so maybe you can deduce a lot just based on those tests but I would think someone could simply listen to music all their lives and have a good ear for it and be able to detect some of those differences in pitch.

I would hope that they did some follow up tests with the twins that had the 22,228 hour practice differential to see if their "measured" musical abilities were really the same. Something tells me they are not.

Keeping this pool related -- I'm trying to come up with an analogy...

In the pool world this would be like having someone grow up watching 14.1 for thousands of hours and becoming a fan of it but NEVER playing it. Then you take someone that has played it for thousands of hours and you come up with a test where they have to pick out the correct pattern -- only to be shocked that the non player was as good or better than the actual player. Nevermind actually testing their playing ability.

The thing with the identical twins is that they carry much of the same to compare against. Taking two random people like above, who knows what kind of talent either will have? Maybe the one that just watched the entire time was more of a natural player, but never found out prior to the challenge.

People have differences and those differences lend themselves to talents in their own ways. If it were just a matter of 'learning it', everybody would be a grandmaster in chess, because there is absolutely no physical skill involved. Pool has many, many little needs, from stamina, to focus, to hand-eye coordination, to seeing patterns.. the list goes on and on.

If it were more a matter of time spent, there'd be thousands more 'killers' out there. Heck, you'd have a hard time fielding any APA teams at all.
 
The thing with the identical twins is that they carry much of the same to compare against. Taking two random people like above, who knows what kind of talent either will have? Maybe the one that just watched the entire time was more of a natural player, but never found out prior to the challenge.

People have differences and those differences lend themselves to talents in their own ways. If it were just a matter of 'learning it', everybody would be a grandmaster in chess, because there is absolutely no physical skill involved. Pool has many, many little needs, from stamina, to focus, to hand-eye coordination, to seeing patterns.. the list goes on and on.

If it were more a matter of time spent, there'd be thousands more 'killers' out there. Heck, you'd have a hard time fielding any APA teams at all.

Speaking of chess, read this article about the Polgar sisters and it may change your mind -- or maybe not.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/the-grandmaster-experiment
 
Everyone who dedicates the time - TRULY puts in the time - becomes a grandmaster at chess. You see this is ALWAYS the catch..... people say oh I have been doing this for 30 years and I still can't master it...but when you really look at their life they didn't put 30 years into one thing deeply, more of a up and down relationship.

People who truly FOCUS and intensely practice are rewarded with mastery of the subject. People who don't are rewarded with increased skill and a lot of frustration.
 
But is musical mastery DENIED to people who can't hear the differences in notes as well as others or at all?

Yes. It's also denied to people who can't "feel" the tempo. I could teach drumming a 10-year old with natural tempo-talent in six months. If you don't have natural tempo-talent I could teach you for the rest of your life but you'd never achieve the 10-year old's six-month ability. It is a physical difference that can't be overcome.

I don't think it's a "fair bet" that those with no musical abilities as defined in this study as being able to discern notes, are forever denied musical mastery. They might need to work harder to develop the skills they need to compensate but I firmly believe any person of sound mind and body can master any instrument they choose to try to master.

They can work at it 24 hours a day, every day for 50 years. They aren't going to "master" an instrument. Maybe they can play well enough join the local nursing home band (and the more power to them, that can be lots of fun!), but they'd stick out like a sore thumb if they sat in with semi-professional musicians.

It's like how deaf people can't learn how to speak. If you can't hear yourself (your "notes") you can't know when you've made the right sound.



See comments above.
 
Bob Jewett also just wrote an article on "The Sports Gene" for Billiard Digest. That book also disputes the 10,000 hour rule (which isn't a rule). ...
Anyone who is interested in the nature/nurture debate really should read "The Sports Gene" which I think gives really good info on both sides of the question.

As for the 10,000-hour rule, the principal author of the original article, Dr. Anders Ericsson, has said that the study has been misinterpreted. He has an updated overview on the subject on his home page. Here is that page: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html

Note that Ericsson was not talking about simply going through the motions of whatever activity -- he was talking about directed, supervised training for an extended period.
 
To prove your point... I tried for many years to get better on the Pedal Steel Guitar. While I could play well along with a band, I could not compose or do much concert play. However, as I have grown older (without an instrument), I have come to realize that a great deal of what I was missing, somehow has become an understandable part of my knowledge.The pieces of the puzzle I could not find are very easily understood now.

I am doing some soul searching about getting another Steel Guitar, to enjoy in my old age, I'm 71.

About my pool game. In reality, I have found that adding pieces of the puzzle along the way, has added some of the stepping stones, to my ability to learn & play Pool.

There are many ingredients to many an endeavor, some learn quickly, some learn over an extended period of time. The problem I see about time, is that when you can learn and/or play at 71, you can't play very long. No stamina.

Good Luck to all. Hang in there, we all know that knowledge is power (in many forms).
Di it, I am back playing the guitar after more the 40 years not playing. I love it and have no illusions or false goals. It is just fun to play. When I was young it may have seemed like work now it is fun again.
 
I think the bottom line is that we are all more capable than we know. Most of us never threaten our limits truly.
 
Speaking of chess, read this article about the Polgar sisters and it may change your mind -- or maybe not.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/the-grandmaster-experiment

I read a fair amount of it and it still has a few holes left in it. Part of it is the interest of the student - the first girl was intrigued before she even knew what it was. They cited pianists, but failed to note how many took lessons and just didn't "get it" and withdrew(or were withdrawn by parents). The parents were not knuck-draggers either.

I did math competitions in grade school. It just came easy. I hated reading about math(who needs words to talk about numbers?), hated homework and didn't like it one bit when I was required to show my work. My brain was just wired for it. I don't care if you sat some of my classmates in a room for 10,000 hours and tried to grind in some of the knowledge, you may end up with a better math student, but you wouldn't end up with Stephen Hawking.

The following are from the article that I believe are in stark contrast to what the father believed in how 10,000 hours(for example) are what creates a master:

"Once you have a winning position," Susan said, "play with your hands, not your head. Trust your intuition."

An aggressive streak, birth order, a chance encounter that leads to a marriage on the other side of the world—these factors and changes of fortune are just as critical in determining whether a person rises to the top of his or her game.

Everyone agrees that Sophia was the most talented of the three, the one most likely to possess Amidzic's ideal processing ratio. "Everything came easiest to her," says Susan. "But she was lazy." People don't always derive the most enjoyment from the things they're best at.


One of the things that true champions have.. desire.
 
Call it genes, desire, or passion, it's all the same thing. If you don't have any of those things for an activity no amount of practice will make a difference. This shouldn't be new news for anyone, it's just common sense. No one becomes a master at something they don't care about.
 
I read a fair amount of it and it still has a few holes left in it. Part of it is the interest of the student - the first girl was intrigued before she even knew what it was. They cited pianists, but failed to note how many took lessons and just didn't "get it" and withdrew(or were withdrawn by parents). The parents were not knuck-draggers either.

I did math competitions in grade school. It just came easy. I hated reading about math(who needs words to talk about numbers?), hated homework and didn't like it one bit when I was required to show my work. My brain was just wired for it. I don't care if you sat some of my classmates in a room for 10,000 hours and tried to grind in some of the knowledge, you may end up with a better math student, but you wouldn't end up with Stephen Hawking.

The following are from the article that I believe are in stark contrast to what the father believed in how 10,000 hours(for example) are what creates a master:

"Once you have a winning position," Susan said, "play with your hands, not your head. Trust your intuition."

An aggressive streak, birth order, a chance encounter that leads to a marriage on the other side of the world—these factors and changes of fortune are just as critical in determining whether a person rises to the top of his or her game.

Everyone agrees that Sophia was the most talented of the three, the one most likely to possess Amidzic's ideal processing ratio. "Everything came easiest to her," says Susan. "But she was lazy." People don't always derive the most enjoyment from the things they're best at.


One of the things that true champions have.. desire.

Intuition is developed through experience and training. You aren't born with street sense just because you were born in the ghetto, you learn it from your parents and people around you in the ghetto. Thus when you move out of the ghetto you still retain a people sense or intuition about people that many don't have.

And yes, desire actually seems to be the real defining characteristic between those who become champions and those who don't. And perhaps desire itself is genetic.

Until the time when we are actively experimenting on humans the way Laslov did with his daughters....and more, messing with the biology....we won't ever really know the full answer based on studies of past performance.

And the argument will rage on.

The question I have is IF you could go into the clinic and get the Mosconi gene turned on - would you?
 
As a psychologist myself - I love this kinda stuff because I'm obviously a huge psych nerd. On the debate of nature vs. nurture... psychology has pretty strong proof that both play a significant (almost equally significant) role in your abilities, skills, talent, etc.

In this study - there are so many variables that it's hard to accurately test something like this and strictly based on the experiment design I can't believe it completely. Especially because other studies done have counteracted this studies findings.

I think someone mentioned the Grandmaster Chess experiment where a psychologist sought out to determine whether prodigies are born as prodigies or are created. The man had two daughters and influenced them to play chess when they were young - he nurtured the skill he introduced them to and they both became grandmasters.

Prodigies, geniuses, etc. are usually born with an affinity for something - math, science, music, pool, etc. but are also nurtured by the parents and their environment to continue to grow. The younger you are the more susceptible you are to others influences so if your parents or primary caregivers like music then you likely will because you're exposed to it.

In other cases where you have no exposure to much through your parents - you find a hobby that fits your inborn temperament, and other times find a hobby that offers relief if your situation or reality is harsh. For me, playing pool offers me time to get away from my house and really focus on something I see as positive.

In this study (and applying it to other skills, talents, etc), yes, twins may be born with a natural affinity for the same skill but without any nurturing, or without any reason to partake in that skill then the twins levels of play will be vastly different. A twin who plays pool and is nurtured to do it will be better than a twin who likes pool but is prohibited to do it or taught to not enjoy it.

But, in my opinion, anyone can learn to do or not do pretty much anything - and it's usually just a matter of time and effort to learn because your brain can do anything that mine can - maybe not as easily or quickly but it can definitely learn.

Another thing that affects growth in anything is your perception of it - obviously, if you hate something then you won't excel as quickly at learning it.

Sorry - I went on a bit of a tangent, didn't I?
 
More yes but even that has it's limitations ,, I will take nature every day twice on game day over nurture




1

Well, I think you would lose because on game day it's the most trained who win, not the most talented.

you know, the 99% perspiration vs. 1% inspiration quote? It's true.
 
The Polgar sisters were an experiment by their father Laszlo. As Kasparov was rumored to have called them trained dogs.
 
9 times out of 10 it's the old stuff that proves victorious...human nature is.......

The reasons most people don't achieve their potential is willingness.

Without the true, sincere willingness to change old thoughts, techniques, systems, ideas, beliefs and/or emotions it's not possible to reach a "new level" of being.

It's like a seed trying to remain a "seed," instead of accepting the drastic changes it takes to become a plant, or flower.....caterpillars face the same potential dilemma.

In many cases improvement becomes a "tug of war," where the player is grabbing on to new knowledge, yet unwilling to let go of the old information...at some point one has to win and 9 times out of 10 it's the old stuff that proves victorious...human nature is fascinating. 'The Game is the Teacher'



I think the bottom line is that we are all more capable than we know. Most of us never threaten our limits truly.
 
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